Who’s responsible for the refugees? - Polidicks

[b]Who’s Responsible for the Refugees?[/b] Via [url=http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/11/opinion/whos-responsible-for-the-refugees.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur]The New York Times[/url] ____________________ [quote][img]http://i.imgur.com/rN3OVqA.jpg[/img] [i]Refugees from various nations being escorted along a rail line near the town of Szeged, Hungary, close to the border with Serbia.[/i] - - - Policy paralysis over the refugee crisis is convulsing Europe: [i]Of course we want to help, but if we’re too generous, more will come.[/i] As a former adviser to the British prime minister, David Cameron, I understand the pressure politicians face from citizens demanding controlled immigration and tightly policed borders. As the son of immigrants welcomed into Britain from Communist Hungary, I feel a strong moral instinct to extend a similar welcome to others fleeing their homelands in even worse circumstances. But still. Before condemning European politicians, aid agencies or anyone else, let’s try to cut through the complexity with some simple human truths. First, stop blaming Hungary. For months before this crisis hit the headlines in America, my hometown, Szeged, was the front line. Just days before I was there on a family vacation in July, 700 refugees were discovered in the woods where we used to play as children. My cousins told me, outraged, about the seemingly unending flow of new arrivals stealing fruit from their friends’ trees and vegetables from their gardens; urinating and defecating in public places throughout the town; clogging up public services. You could say: How xenophobic. Or instead: How would you feel if your daily life was being made intolerable while the authorities, thanks to European Union rules about registering refugees, seemed unable to restore order? Hungary is small and relatively poor. It’s a little unfair, to put it mildly, to condemn Hungary for callous — even racist — treatment of migrants when those doing the condemning bear far more responsibility for the crisis. Yes, America, I’m talking about you.[/quote] This line right here... "So it’s a bit rich for American commentators to lecture Europeans when part of the reason the refugees are arriving on Europe’s doorstep is American foreign policy." ^ Holy shit, he's right. He's so right. [editline]11th September 2015[/editline] If anything, the US government is directly responsible for destabilizing the entire Middle East region in the last decades... so yea, I agree.

We should make an effort to alleviate the suffering these people experience, But we cant house whole countries.

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;48658658]If anything, the US government is directly responsible for destabilizing the entire Middle East region in the last decades... so yea, I agree.[/QUOTE] No, this is stupid. The Iraq invasion was a coalition effort and Europe wanted us to leave Iraq when we did. The author blames the US for Europe not getting involved in Syria... what?!? How is it the US's fault that Europe has lost it's ability to be militarily effectual?

[QUOTE=St33m;48658695]We should make an effort to alleviate the suffering these people experience, But we cant house whole countries.[/QUOTE] Oh I wholeheartedly agree. Their misfortune and desperation is not supposed to be [I]your business[/I] (as it seems to be portrayed so far), nor you should make it [I]your business[/I]. Of course one is free to help in any way possible... but a million refugees are a million refugees. [editline]11th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=sgman91;48658699]No, this is stupid. The Iraq invasion was a coalition effort and Europe wanted us to leave Iraq when we did. The author blames the US for Europe not getting involved in Syria... what?!? How is it the US's fault that Europe has lost it's ability to be militarily effectual?[/QUOTE] When I said that, I meant your former president Bush, I should have clarified.

It's everybody's fault and everyone should do their part to fix the problem. Pointing fingers will just further slow down the effort to solve this issue.

[QUOTE=Satansick;48658817]It's everybody's fault and everyone should do their part to fix the problem. Pointing fingers will just further slow down the effort to solve this issue.[/QUOTE] But it isn't everybody's fault.

[QUOTE=Satansick;48658817]It's everybody's fault and everyone should do their part to fix the problem. Pointing fingers will just further slow down the effort to solve this issue.[/QUOTE] Since the US is also largely responsible for the destabilisation of the middle east I don't see how it would be adequate if they'd only take 5,000 refugees.

[QUOTE=Satansick;48658817]It's everybody's fault and everyone should do their part to fix the problem. Pointing fingers will just further slow down the effort to solve this issue.[/QUOTE] We tried that for almost a decade, and all that happened was things fell apart the instant we left.

[QUOTE=Satansick;48658817]It's everybody's fault and everyone should do their part to fix the problem. Pointing fingers will just further slow down the effort to solve this issue.[/QUOTE] I doubt Estonia was part of this problem, so we dont want to be in the middle of this. Our country is already struggling with economy.

[QUOTE=Dark RaveN;48659022]I doubt Estonia was part of this problem, so we dont want to be in the middle of this. Our country is already struggling with economy.[/QUOTE] Same with Finland. A lot of refugees walk through ten perfectly fine countries just for the sake of Finland's (and Sweden's) high social security dosh. That's no longer being a refugee, but being a leech. Denmark did some changes to theirs and the amount of refugees staying there dropped a fair bit.

[QUOTE=Satansick;48658817]It's everybody's fault and everyone should do their part to fix the problem. Pointing fingers will just further slow down the effort to solve this issue.[/QUOTE] I don't think v4 have much to do with the influx of refugees. They're not even part of NATO.

[QUOTE=Orkel;48659045]Same with Finland. A lot of refugees walk through ten perfectly fine countries just for the sake of Finland's (and Sweden's) high social security dosh. That's no longer being a refugee, but being a leech. Denmark did some changes to theirs and the amount of refugees staying there dropped a fair bit.[/QUOTE] but don't you dare point that out, otherwise you're considered a xenophobe. I wonder how well the refugees and immigrants posing as refugees will take the EU's plan for redistribution among its members

[QUOTE=Pretiacruento;48658658] "So it’s a bit rich for American commentators to lecture Europeans when part of the reason the refugees are arriving on Europe’s doorstep is American foreign policy." ^ Holy shit, he's right. He's so right. [editline]11th September 2015[/editline] If anything, the US government is directly responsible for destabilizing the entire Middle East region in the last decades... so yea, I agree.[/QUOTE] 1. It's not our fault we're the "World Police" when the UN and EU are fucking ineffective as shit. Suuuure everyone's all like "Hey America stop being all big and military and shit." But oh no, the moment some radical in a country tosses a firecracker around, they all crawl behind us, point at the guy tossing the firecrackers around, and then we have to go in for them. 2. The problems in the Middle east are over 100 years in the making, stemming from the west in general messing with them since about before WWI. Overall this sucks, but I don't think opening the flood gates for thousands of migrants is the fucking answer. Especially if A. they aren't ready for western culture and western taboos. and B. some radicals and criminals are amongst the thousands that will get in and cause a shit ton of trouble. We didn't have a wall seperating Mexico from America because "fuck dem latinos", we did it because we can't support all of those folks running away from Mexican cartels, and we can't go in and solve the problem for them. It's Mexico's conflict, not ours until one of those cartel members decides to head across the border, or do buisness across the border, then it's the problem of the FBI and/or CIA.

Of course its Americas fault, it's also the fault of those who aided America's policy.

[QUOTE=Orkel;48659045]Denmark did some changes to theirs and the amount of refugees staying there dropped a fair bit.[/QUOTE] And now they've hopped on trains to go to Sweden instead. [url]https://www.facebook.com/237897046301844/videos/887938071297735/[/url]

Essentially those goes back a hundred years when the British Empire destroyed the Ottoman Empire and splintered the middle east with the Sykes - Picot agreement, along with historical feuds between different religions (& many slight differentiations of one specific religion.) Basically it's regional geopolitics that has gained global attention through conflict, forced migration through said conflicts & economic potential thus has grown into being an integral part of global geopolitics.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48659134]1. It's not our fault we're the "World Police" when the UN and EU are fucking ineffective as shit. Suuuure everyone's all like "Hey America stop being all big and military and shit." But oh no, the moment some radical in a country tosses a firecracker around, they all crawl behind us, point at the guy tossing the firecrackers around, and then we have to go in for them. 2. The problems in the Middle east are over 100 years in the making, stemming from the west in general messing with them since about before WWI. Overall this sucks, but I don't think opening the flood gates for thousands of migrants is the fucking answer. Especially if A. they aren't ready for western culture and western taboos. and B. some radicals and criminals are amongst the thousands that will get in and cause a shit ton of trouble. We didn't have a wall seperating Mexico from America because "fuck dem latinos", we did it because we can't support all of those folks running away from Mexican cartels, and we can't go in and solve the problem for them. It's Mexico's conflict, not ours until one of those cartel members decides to head across the border, or do buisness across the border, then it's the problem of the FBI and/or CIA.[/QUOTE] I don't recall the EU asking the United States to stage multiple coups d'état for oil in the Middle East, and then arm and train extremist Muslim cells, and then have it all blow up in the UN's face. Not that Europe is innocent in any way -- colonization from centuries ago fucked the entire African continent over, no denying that.

[QUOTE=Ager O'Eggers;48659181]I don't recall the EU asking the United States to stage multiple coups d'état for oil in the Middle East, and then arm and train extremist Muslim cells, and then have it all blow up in the UN's face. [/QUOTE] The fucking oil thing again? Also why is it always coming from non American FPers? It's so easy to say "I hate America." when you're not actually from America. When you call America some evil nefarious place, you're spitting in my face to be frank. I'm not saying you should bow down to us, I'm not saying we're the best place either, but I'm calling out how easy it is for non-Americans to simply say America is corrupt and shit. Also we have oil coming in from Canada and Western Europe, as well as whatever comes out from fracking in Texas (I think) and the Gulf of fucking Mexico, I think we're good on the black juice.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48659202]The fucking oil thing again? Also why is it always coming from non American FPers? It's so easy to say "I hate America." when you're not actually from America. When you call America some evil nefarious place, you're spitting in my face to be frank. I'm not saying you should bow down to us, I'm not saying we're the best place either, but I'm calling out how easy it is for non-Americans to simply say America is corrupt and shit. Also we have oil coming in from Canada and Western Europe, as well as whatever comes out from fracking in Texas (I think) and the Gulf of fucking Mexico, I think we're good on the black juice.[/QUOTE] Also some middle eastern countries we dick around in don't even have much oil, such as Afghanistan. [IMG]http://inblackandweitz.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/451fe37cd8237daa4874d4e0c10b99990e37e59f.png[/IMG] Even this incredibly out of date graph shows that we're fine. To me it sounds like the best solution would be for the EU to get its shit together and figure out a way to relocate and redistribute refugees among countries based on their potential capacity, though I'm not quite sure it's possible to do that. They obviously can't just say "get the fuck out" since that's immoral and illegal as fuck.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48659202] Also why is it always coming from non American FPers? It's so easy to say "I hate America." [/QUOTE] Why is that surprising? We see and hear what you guys do from our own media. We aren't attached to the country as you are. Of course our picture is going to be painted differently. And no one is hating USA, people are questioning USA's actions, not that it even matters since USA doesn't seem to give a shit.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48659202]The fucking oil thing again? Also why is it always coming from non American FPers? It's so easy to say "I hate America." when you're not actually from America. When you call America some evil nefarious place, you're spitting in my face to be frank. I'm not saying you should bow down to us, I'm not saying we're the best place either, but I'm calling out how easy it is for non-Americans to simply say America is corrupt and shit. Also we have oil coming in from Canada and Western Europe, as well as whatever comes out from fracking in Texas (I think) and the Gulf of fucking Mexico, I think we're good on the black juice.[/QUOTE] If not to destabilize local oil production, or to make a killing in weapons deals, what did the US army do for a decade in the Middle East? Did the US stick their noses in Irak, Iran and Afghanistan out of the kindness of their hearts? Was the US threatened by their military forces? Or was the government just getting their jollies? You can't say the US's involvement in the Middle East was innocent. It is one of the sources of today's issues; alongside European colonization, as you pointed out. [QUOTE=thelurker1234;48659214] To me it sounds like the best solution would be for the EU to get its shit together and figure out a way to relocate and redistribute refugees among countries based on their potential capacity, though I'm not quite sure it's possible to do that. They obviously can't just say "get the fuck out" since that's immoral and illegal as fuck.[/QUOTE] That is actually the EU's plan atm. [URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11852782/Jean-Claude-Juncker-State-of-the-Union-EU-address-refugee-crisis-live.html"]Juncker (Luxemburg rep, president of the European Commission) wants to spread out refugees among the EU members[/URL], but there's protest coming from certain countries (mainly Poland and its neighbors). Plus, imagine how the refugees will react. They already staunchly refused to be registered in every country on their way to Germany. They won't let themselves get relocated to, let's say, Spain or Italy.

[QUOTE=Hellsten;48659150]And now they've hopped on trains to go to Sweden instead. [url]https://www.facebook.com/237897046301844/videos/887938071297735/[/url][/QUOTE] I ride the same trains that these guys arrive with on my morning commute to uni, one of my friends who speak arabic asked a guy from Syria why he came here and he replied that he came here solely for the extra social benefits. They are not even hiding the fact that they are coming here for money yet our media paints a picture of these people being desperate for a place to live. I used to laugh about people saying Sweden is doomed but if our media doesn't start showing both sides of the coin and our politicians and people don't start thinking with their heads instead of their hearts malmö will become a real shit hole in a matter of months.

I noticed a lot of people have been talking about other country's but haven't really address something, The middle east has always been at war with itself at one time or another and it has been like this for a very long time. You could say that other country's have added to the fire but the fire has always been there.

Does it really matter who's responsible though? All countries should try to help the best they can in my opinion. There are many things all countries can do to help without opening their borders to everyone.

[QUOTE=Swebonny;48659235]And no one is hating USA, people are questioning USA's actions, not that it even matters since USA doesn't seem to give a shit.[/QUOTE] I'm genuinely tired of how European countries are conforming to USA's agendas and to deal with the consequences of their actions (in a completely unsustainable way too) to a point where just thinking about the situation pisses me off.

[quote][img]http://i.imgur.com/rN3OVqA.jpg[/img][/quote] I remember during the war here the refugees didn't forget to bring their women and children too, and were not all men in their twenties and thirties.

[QUOTE=AntonioR;48659442]I remember during the war here the refugees didn't forget to bring their women and children too, and were not all men in their twenties and thirties.[/QUOTE] I thought that typically refugees were supposed to more often be women and children, because the men tend to get drafted into whatever army controls the area.

Im fairly certain that is because they are bringing thier family in via the legal and safe route after theyve established i the country. I think in the video posted here one of them said he didnt want to stay in Denmark because getting his family therr would take half a year. While in sweden it just takes a few months.

So the author of this article points out how the refugee crisis is somehow caused by the US (why is the Syrian Civil War the fault of the US exactly?) but then he criticizes the US for not intervening and getting rid of Assad with Britain (Why is this criticism not made of Russia or France or any other power capable of intervention?). What a confused piece of writing. He would have written the same article if the US had invaded and deposed Assad except he would lambaste the decision and then blame the US again. [editline]11th September 2015[/editline] The conversations I hear about how it's the moral responsibility of the West to intervene and stop the violence in Syria or elsewhere in the Middle East is so scarily reminiscent of 2002 and what people were saying about Saddam. It's literally the exact same statements being made.

[QUOTE=Orkel;48659045]Same with Finland. A lot of refugees walk through ten perfectly fine countries just for the sake of Finland's (and Sweden's) high social security dosh. That's no longer being a refugee, but being a leech. Denmark did some changes to theirs and the amount of refugees staying there dropped a fair bit.[/QUOTE] Portugal certainly doesn't has anything to do with this, and we're like, the worst country for just about anything AND we're probably one of the most difficult to access, because its either a shitload of miles on foot or by sea. We already have enough people either leeching or genuinely in need, we don't need any more problems. [editline]11th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Hellsten;48659380]I'm genuinely tired of how European countries are conforming to USA's agendas and to deal with the consequences of their actions (in a completely unsustainable way too) to a point where just thinking about the situation pisses me off.[/QUOTE] Well, if shit hits the fan(hope not), I kinda expect our ally from the west to help. Our politicians bend over to both east and west, so... At least its what I hope....