ATF Storms a Gun Store to Seize Customer List Despite a Judge’s Restraining Order - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Federal agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms stormed four Ares Armor stores in San Diego county over the weekend, despite the restraining order the company had obtained from a judge just three days earlier. The ATF carried a warrant, claiming they were looking for questionably legal gun component parts – the polymer 80 percent lower receivers – but they also took customer data and files. [/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.ijreview.com/2014/03/122675-atf-ignores-restraining-order-confiscates-gun-shops-customer-lists/"]http://www.ijreview.com/2014/03/1226...ustomer-lists/[/URL]

How can these agents even fucking look at themselves and think they're upholding the law?

Well wait who gave them a warrant? AFAIK a restraining order doesn't invalidate a warrant especially if the warrant's from a higher court.

So, the short version of this is that a company called ARES buys the lower receivers to AR-15 rifles (which are literally empty pieces of metal) so that people can build their own. This piece is not illegal to sell, requires no paperwork, and is not considered a firearm by the ATF. It's literally the same concept as selling mufflers and than being accused of selling the whole car. In order to actually make a rifle with it, you still need to buy the trigger group which has to be purchased via a person or company with an FFL. This wasn't a big deal, but I guess they had recently erected a billboard outside the store with a picture of an AR-15 and that was what got them noticed. The ATF showed up, demanded their customer sales records and some lowers as evidence, claiming they were firearms, threatening to come back and raid them if they didn't cooperate and if they did work with them than no one would find out and no one would be charged with anything. ARES refused to release the customer information to them so they left, ARES filed a restraining order. Irregardless a day or two later the ATF raids them anyway, takes the information, seizes some lowers, claims they're seizing firearms. That sort of thing. They also call it a "gun store" in the article. All they sold were lowers, some firearm accessories and tactical gear. It was basically a surplus store more or less. They don't actually sell guns are ARES. [editline]21st March 2014[/editline] Otherwise known as; Complete bullshit

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;44308486]<Stuff about lowers> Otherwise known as; Complete bullshit[/QUOTE] Better come get me, ATF. I have a large hollow block of metal here from when I was making a Warhammer board! It's an assault tactical babycannon 3000!

Why were they looking for polymer lowers.

You can't get a restraining order against a government agency looking for illegal firearm production.

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;44308486]So, the short version of this is that a company called ARES buys the lower receivers to AR-15 rifles (which are literally empty pieces of metal) so that people can build their own. This piece is not illegal to sell, requires no paperwork, and is not considered a firearm by the ATF. It's literally the same concept as selling mufflers and than being accused of selling the whole car. In order to actually make a rifle with it, you still need to buy the trigger group which has to be purchased via a person or company with an FFL. This wasn't a big deal, but I guess they had recently erected a billboard outside the store with a picture of an AR-15 and that was what got them noticed. The ATF showed up, demanded their customer sales records and some lowers as evidence, claiming they were firearms, threatening to come back and raid them if they didn't cooperate and if they did work with them than no one would find out and no one would be charged with anything. ARES refused to release the customer information to them so they left, ARES filed a restraining order. Irregardless a day or two later the ATF raids them anyway, takes the information, seizes some lowers, claims they're seizing firearms. That sort of thing. They also call it a "gun store" in the article. All they sold were lowers, some firearm accessories and tactical gear. It was basically a surplus store more or less. They don't actually sell guns are ARES. [editline]21st March 2014[/editline] Otherwise known as; Complete bullshit[/QUOTE] You're misunderstanding it. A lower is the [I]firearm[/I] in US firearms law. But the question is [I]when does a piece of metal become a firearm?[/I] Many years ago the ATF decided that a lower that is more than 80% complete is a firearm so many companies sell 80% complete lowers that require you to drill holes and mill out bits to turn it into a firearm. Trigger parts are not firearms. [editline]21st March 2014[/editline] Basically the ATF is throwing shit over the ARES lowers being more than 80% despite the fact that ARES (and every other 80% manufacturer) sends their designs off to the ATF and asks them to confirm their lower is only considered '80%' and not an actual firearm. This here is the ATF changing their mind years after production has started

This is an 80% lower receiver: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/BXRfEvC.jpg[/IMG] It still needs machining to be able to accept a trigger or any other parts that would be needed to make it a functioning firearm. These don't require a license to sell, nor a background check to buy. The ATF alleges that ARES is somehow breaking the law, by making these out of a softer material (plastic) and color coding the areas that the end user would need to cut out, which the ATF says makes it easier to convert. The ATF is full of shit, and has been for decades. They get to make up their own laws, change them, and enforce them independent of any other branch of government.

Remove ATF give the FBI their funding and responsibilities

[QUOTE=Fatfatfatty;44308617]Why were they looking for polymer lowers.[/QUOTE] The 80% lowers ARES was selling had colored areas as a guide for the machining process, and to the ATF mere coloration of the physically identical object constitutes enough of a difference to classify it as a firearm, which they were selling without being properly serialized and of course without an FFL or 4473s and all that. I really do love the image of federal ATF agents kicking down doors with select fire rifles to forcefully take chunks of polymer colored and shaped a certain way from civilians under the guise of looking out for public safety or some garbage like that. All because some over-zealous city councilman was too flabbergasted over a chunk of wood shaped and colored a certain way outside their shop.

Well look on the bright side, at least this time they didn't burn the building down with women and children inside.

[QUOTE=Trunk Monkay;44308921]Well look on the bright side, at least this time they didn't burn the building down with women and children inside.[/QUOTE] Or knock holes in the walls and pump in tear gas?

It was probably a local judge who issued the restraining order, and not a federal judge. Basically, the ATF, or any federal agency, can say fuck all to something issued by the state if it effects their investigation.

The court indictment cites the employment of a felon to complete the milling and machining (i.e. aluminum -> firearm) as the reason for obtaining the warrant, rather than anything about a unique manufacturing process. [url]http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news/docs/2014/2014_02/02-27-2014Cortez-Garcia%20Indictment.pdf[/url] Which as crimes under the jurisdiction of the ATF go is pretty super.

Government losers with too much power on their hands, what's new

Definitely something Stahl would do ATF bitch

[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;44308486]It's literally the same concept as selling mufflers and than being accused of selling the whole car. [/QUOTE] While I do agree with most of what you're saying, that's a bit of an exaggeration. This is more akin to selling the frame of a car than a muffler, an 80% lower is a lot more to an AR than a muffler is to a car. Other than that though I agree.

[QUOTE=asteroidrules;44311813]While I do agree with most of what you're saying, that's a bit of an exaggeration. This is more akin to selling the frame of a car than a muffler, an 80% lower is a lot more to an AR than a muffler is to a car. Other than that though I agree.[/QUOTE] If cars were heavily regulated and legally restricted, and you were selling car frames, would you really be surprised if a government agency wanted to make sure that what you're doing is exactly what you say you're doing, and would you [I]really[/I] be surprised if they came back with a warrant when you refuse to cooperate? ARES wasn't doing anything wrong but when you're dealing in firearm parts you should be prepared to have to show the government that what you're doing is legitimate, and refusing and then trying to file a restraining order is a bad move.

[quote=CodeMonkey3]. . .Irregardless. . .[/quote] God damn you to hell, sir.

I bet you prince is behind this.

[QUOTE=download;44308711]You're misunderstanding it. A lower is the [I]firearm[/I] in US firearms law. But the question is [I]when does a piece of metal become a firearm?[/I] Many years ago the ATF decided that a lower that is more than 80% complete is a firearm so many companies sell 80% complete lowers that require you to drill holes and mill out bits to turn it into a firearm. Trigger parts are not firearms. [editline]21st March 2014[/editline] Basically the ATF is throwing shit over the ARES lowers being more than 80% despite the fact that ARES (and every other 80% manufacturer) sends their designs off to the ATF and asks them to confirm their lower is only considered '80%' and not an actual firearm. This here is the ATF changing their mind years after production has started[/QUOTE] Are you kidding me? My rifle is not a rifle unless my hand squeezes the trigger. My hand is 80% of the weapon whereas the wood and steel of my Mosin-Nagant is 20%. 80% bullshit. How is it a firearm when you can't take fire the thing. [b]It's still a hunk of metal[/b]. That law is just leverage the ATF can use on what they can confiscate. Fuck, a wooden mauser stock could be considered a firearm by that logic.

[QUOTE=catbarf;44312811]If cars were heavily regulated and legally restricted, and you were selling car frames, would you really be surprised if a government agency wanted to make sure that what you're doing is exactly what you say you're doing, and would you [I]really[/I] be surprised if they came back with a warrant when you refuse to cooperate? ARES wasn't doing anything wrong but when you're dealing in firearm parts you should be prepared to have to show the government that what you're doing is legitimate, and refusing and then trying to file a restraining order is a bad move.[/QUOTE] That's not what's going on. The ATF has no business doing anything to these guys, and what they are selling is not 'heavily regulated' as you say as the 80% lowers are by law not firearms, that's the whole point. Likewise the other parts such as the upper receiver are not legally considered firearms, you can order all of this stuff online and have it shipped to your door no problem. The ATF also has a bad record of changing their minds after the fact, then going after people who were lead to believe what they were doing was legal, they're the biggest bunch of liars, thieves and murderers in the federal government, the ATF should be disbanded and every last one of them should be banned from ever holding office or a place in law enforcement ever again as they cannot be trusted.

A warrant trumps a restraining order. The judge would not have signed the warrant if the restraining order had cause

[QUOTE=RR_Raptor65;44313525]That's not what's going on. The ATF has no business doing anything to these guys, and what they are selling is not 'heavily regulated' as you say as the 80% lowers are by law not firearms, that's the whole point. Likewise the other parts such as the upper receiver are not legally considered firearms, you can order all of this stuff online and have it shipped to your door no problem.[/QUOTE] They're still close enough to be worth a visit from the feds to ensure everything's on the level. Would you be surprised if the ATF wanted to check that a seller of deactivated firearms was in fact selling properly deactivated weapons, or if the DEA wanted to check into the legitimacy of a medical marijuana grower, or if some local police wanted to make sure that a strip club isn't offering prostitution? These kinds of investigations are done all the time by law enforcement. No, an 80% lower is not a firearm. But it wouldn't be hard for a company advertising 80% lowers and shipping them all across the country to be making a bit of side business illegally selling completed lowers, so that warrants a bit of investigation. They didn't break down the door and arrest everyone, they asked for a bit of documentation and an example- and when it wasn't provided, they got a warrant. Again, if you're dealing in firearm parts (and an 80% lower is obviously a firearm part, whether or not it's legally a firearm) you have to be ready to cooperate with law enforcement. And trying to get a restraining order against a law enforcement agency is the dumbest idea you could possibly have in that situation.

Yeah, except when the police want to check up on a strip club, they don't demand a list of every customer who has been through there. ARES told the ATF to blow it out their ass and they were right to do so. If the ATF wanted to check up on the legitimacy of ARES operation they'd demand a sample of their product for testing. On top of that, we operate on an 'innocent until proven guilty' system here, which makes their demand of the customer list even more asinine. No, what's happened here is the ATF is pissed off that someone DARE stand up to them rather than let them run amok like they've grown accustomed to doing for decades, and they fully intend to make an example of ARES.

were all fucked

And people say "WE NEED TO HAVE ALL FIREARMS REGISTERED" Yeah with the atf just seizing that list of names of customers is the exact reason why we should NOT have a registry.

[QUOTE=CabooseRvB;44313423]Are you kidding me? My rifle is not a rifle unless my hand squeezes the trigger. My hand is 80% of the weapon whereas the wood and steel of my Mosin-Nagant is 20%. 80% bullshit. How is it a firearm when you can't take fire the thing. [b]It's still a hunk of metal[/b]. That law is just leverage the ATF can use on what they can confiscate. Fuck, a wooden mauser stock could be considered a firearm by that logic.[/QUOTE] That's US law

[QUOTE=FZE;44309398]The court indictment cites the employment of a felon to complete the milling and machining (i.e. aluminum -> firearm) as the reason for obtaining the warrant, rather than anything about a unique manufacturing process. [url]http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news/docs/2014/2014_02/02-27-2014Cortez-Garcia%20Indictment.pdf[/url] Which as crimes under the jurisdiction of the ATF go is pretty super.[/QUOTE] It's still not a firearm when they sell it, so that argument is moot. It's just a block of aluminum with a couple holes drilled in it.