[b]Source:[/b] [url=http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-0928-marijuana-dispensaries-20110921,0,7776989.story?]Linkage[/url]
[quote]Medical marijuana dispensaries — with storerooms of high-priced weed, registers brimming with cash and some clientele more interested in getting high than getting well — are often seen as magnets for crime, a perception deepened by a few high-profile murders.
But a report from the Rand Corp. reaches a startling conclusion: The opposite appears to be true.
[img]http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2011-09/64902729.jpg[/img]
In a study of crime near Los Angeles dispensaries — which the investigators call the most rigorous independent examination of its kind — the Santa Monica-based think tank found that crime actually increased near hundreds of pot shops after they were required to close last summer.
"What I would take away from it is maybe there should just be a little bit less fear about having dispensaries," said Mireille Jacobson, a health economist who was the lead researcher. "Hopefully, this injects a little bit of science into the discussion."
The researchers compared the 10 days before the city's medical marijuana ordinance took effect June 7, 2010, with the 10 days after, when many of the more than 400 illegal dispensaries shut down — if only briefly.
They found a 59% increase in crime within three-tenths of a mile of a closed dispensary compared to an open one and a 24% increase within six-tenths of a mile.
The city attorney's office, which has argued in court proceedings that the number of dispensaries needs to be reduced to deal with "well-documented crime," called the report's conclusions "highly suspect and unreliable," saying that they were based on "faulty assumptions, conjecture, irrelevant data, untested measurements and incomplete results."
In particular, the office challenged the idea that most dispensaries closed June 7, 2010, and were not open for at least 10 days. And it offered its own conjecture for the rise in crime: infighting among collective members, increased traffic for pot fire sales and customers disgruntled to find their dispensary closed.
Jacobson said Rand did not assume dispensaries shut down exactly on that date and said that, if more of them closed earlier or later, it would mean only that crime increased more than the report found.
The researchers acknowledge that the results are subject to a large margin of error, so the increase in crime within less than a third of a mile could range from as low as 5.4% to as high as 114%.
"These are noisy data over a short period of time," Jacobson said. But she noted that the numbers, which were subjected to complex statistical analyses, clearly show crime increased.
The researchers did not try to draw conclusions on why crime increased, but offered the hypothesis that dispensaries may heighten security in the areas around them because they employ cameras and guards, increase late-night foot traffic, replace illicit street sales and draw heavier police patrols.
In a review of crime statistics from 2009 ordered by Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck, the LAPD found that banks were much more likely to be robbed than dispensaries.
Cmdr. Andrew Smith, a department spokesman, said the LAPD had not yet reviewed the report, but would do so.
The Rand report notes that police departments in Denver and Colorado Springs, Colo., also studied crime around dispensaries and found no evidence that they attracted crime.
None of this surprises dispensary owners or their lawyers, who note that their surveillance records are sometimes requested by police to investigate crimes unrelated to selling marijuana.
"It's some empirical evidence that demonstrates that the security measures that make it safe for patients to obtain their medical marijuana also serve the community," said David Welch, a lawyer who has represented many Los Angeles dispensaries.
Yamileth Bolanos, who runs PureLife Alternative Wellness Center on South La Cienega Boulevard and also is president of the Greater Los Angeles Collectives Alliance, said, "I know that there's no crime around here. We watch everything."
But Steve Whitmore, a spokesman for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department, strenuously disagreed with the report's conclusions.
"Every time we shut down a dispensary, the crime and the disorder decrease," he said.
The report looks at such crimes as thefts and assaults, but not "disorder," nuisances such as loitering, double parking, loud noises and graffiti that sparked anger among neighborhood activists. Whitmore said those complaints are often what causes the department to act.
Eagle Rock, which has about a dozen dispensaries, has long been one of the city's pot hot spots.
Michael Larsen, president of the neighborhood council, said he only knows of one dispensary-related crime — an armed robbery — but has heard countless complaints from irritated neighbors.
He said most of the dispensaries that initially closed last summer have reopened, defying the city.
"Our main concern is the crime of illegal dispensaries illegally selling marijuana," Larsen said. "That's the crime that we're concerned about."[/quote]
Unrelated: It's safer than cigs and alc just fucking decriminalize it already.
Wow.
So many good arguments can come from this.
Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.
yes, probably because everyone is too stoned to even make an attempt at causing crime, they're more focused on taco bell's $5 box
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.[/QUOTE]
I agree. People say all the time that weed isn't addictive and won't hurt you, but I've had a few friends that went from smoking nothing, to weed, and the on to some heavier stuff. It's more than just the weed, I know, it's them, but I've seen it happen.
Is this study really even proving anything? There may be a lower crime rate around the dispensery, but is that because of the weed or just chance? Does that mean people outside the area aren't driving to it to get weed, and are therefor commiting more crime?
I don't think a legal dispensery of anything will have any negative or positive effect on the crime rate in the immediate area. Now, an illegal shop selling heavy drugs to locals? That could probably cause some serious issues.
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.[/QUOTE]
honestly this is the most coherent and logical argument i've ever heard concerning legalization. (i'm 100% serious). you raise some really good points. Legalization isn't all unicorn dicks and rainbows, there are some negative aspects to it.
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.[/QUOTE]
your last paragraph could be used against alcohol as well.(fucked up the rest of the sent ace)
[QUOTE=Mcfuret;32411701]your last paragraph could be used against alcohol as well. that's legal and very available and you don't see people getting fucked up all the time everyday, sure maybe when its first legalised people might over do it, however over time and with the right regulations like age restriction It would just be as viewed as alcohol is today[/QUOTE]
What? People do get fucked up all the time with alcohol every day. Where have you been?
[url]http://www.myaddiction.com/education/articles/alcohol_statistics.html[/url]
The rest of your argument is sound and I agree it should be legal, but you must be either high or drinking right now yourself to say THAT!
[QUOTE=Mcfuret;32411701]your last paragraph could be used against alcohol as well. that's legal and very available and [B]you don't see people getting fucked up all the time everyday[/B], sure maybe when its first legalised people might over do it, however over time and with the right regulations like age restriction It would just be as viewed as alcohol is today[/QUOTE]
You live in Britain how can you say that
Yeah lol exactly my thoughts too. Tons of people drink themselves to sleep after the day's work. Or just get fucked up every day.
seriously, eventually the counter argument against legalization is going to degrade into "[B]B-BECAUSE IT'S BAD.[/B]"
[QUOTE=goon165;32412080]seriously, eventually the counter argument against legalization is going to degrade into "[B]B-BECAUSE IT'S BAD.[/B]"[/QUOTE]
Well, it would add another substance that can be abused. But considering you can get high off of anything these days it's hardly an argument.
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.[/QUOTE]
one problem solved will always spawn new one. I agree with your post 100%. People may move on to stronger drugs so you just legalize every fucking drug, and take some of that money to reform everything that needs to be reformed about drugs (school, addiction centers/hospital, aggressive researching drugs).
new problems will spawn but we won't see them until this shit gets done.
kind of obvious to me
ive only seen ONE fight across my favourite hometown coffeeshop. it was on my birthday even, there was a festival downtown and some cokeheads started brawling across the coffeeshop.
seen too many fights and brawls downtown near clubs, its so not chill
[QUOTE=Mcfuret;32411701]your last paragraph could be used against alcohol as well.(fucked up the rest of the sent ace)[/QUOTE]
It could indeed. But people are not debating about legalizing alcohol right now, nor forbidding it (thanks god).
[editline]21st September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=HeatPipe;32412155]one problem solved will always spawn new one. I agree with your post 100%. [B]People may move on to stronger drugs so you just legalize every fucking drug[/B], and take some of that money to reform everything that needs to be reformed about drugs (school, addiction centers/hospital, aggressive researching drugs).
new problems will spawn but we won't see them until this shit gets done.[/QUOTE]
That's definitly not a good idea, the main reason lots of people including me want to smoke their joint legally is because it's not that much of a big deal when you're smoking from times to times. Drink a beer with friends or get a massive hangover doesn't make you an alcoholic, nor do smoking a blunt or several ones in a row at a party makes you a junkie. But some of those other drugs pretty much instantly gets you addicted and fucks up your health pretty bad. Now you could say cigs does that but a smoker out of cig is definitly not going to behave like a crack addict who hasn't got his shit for a little while.
But yes, money gained by selling marijuana legally should be spent on reforming the institutions you quoted, definitly.
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke.[/QUOTE]
No. Basically one of the reasons it should be legal is that NOW it is a port to stronger drugs. It is considered as dangerous and put in the same category as drugs that ARE really dangerous. And it's the most used illegal drug in the world and available to everyone, people think that heroin can't be that bad either after they try weed.
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32412282]It could indeed. But people are not debating about legalizing alcohol right now, nor forbidding it (thanks god).
[editline]21st September 2011[/editline]
That's definitly not a good idea, the main reason lots of people including me want to smoke their joint legally is because it's not that much of a big deal when you're smoking from times to times. Drink a beer with friends or get a massive hangover doesn't make you an alcoholic, nor do smoking a blunt or several ones in a row at a party makes you a junkie. But some of those other drugs pretty much instantly gets you addicted and fucks up your health pretty bad. Now you could say cigs does that but a smoker out of cig is definitly not going to behave like a crack addict who hasn't got his shit for a little while.
But yes, money gained by selling marijuana legally should be spent on reforming the institutions you quoted, definitly.[/QUOTE]
It's not that simple, you don't get addicted instantly. It's depends on living conditions. Also alcohol is just as bad as many illegal drugs. Ok, leave meth/crack/heroin illegal, those really are too hardcore for humans.
Really, research should be done legally and objectively. No propaganda shit, only that way we will see which drugs should be legal and illegal.
Nobody should fear drugs, but should respect them or it can fuck their lives.
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether)[/QUOTE]
Ew, are you kidding me? That's not only a terrible argument because it's pure choice (well technically milk isn't safer than alcohol because you can mix the two right?), but "most of the time you mix it with tobacco" makes no sense to me. That's purely reliant on who you're with and what they prefer and what [B]you[/B] prefer - personally none of my friends (or me) are cigarette smokers so the simple thought of mixing it with tobacco has never come up and would probably be shot down in disgust quickly.
I rated you disagree but I just realized I don't really disagree with everything else you said so nevermind that.
The human mind works in mysterious ways man.
[QUOTE=Maucer;32412534]No. Basically one of the reasons it should be legal is that NOW it is a port to stronger drugs. It is considered as dangerous and put in the same category as drugs that ARE really dangerous. And it's the most used illegal drug in the world and available to everyone, people think that heroin can't be that bad either after they try weed.[/QUOTE]
Refer to the part where I'm saying dealers would end up with little to no customers anymore and start selling away stronger shit. Dealers are not weirdos and social outcast, they're usually friends or people you know and they can be very persuasive when it comes to selling their stuff.
Also no pretty much everyone I know (usually 16 to 20 years old) know that marijuana is far less dangerous than alcohol and what's the difference between a recreational drug (?) and a strong drug. (not quite sure about those last terms, in French we got terms literally translated as "Soft drug" and "Strong drug")
Now people could be not that well aware in Finland (not a negative comment about finnish people) but this is the case here and I think it is in the US aswell.
[editline]21st September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=HeatPipe;32412612]It's not that simple, you don't get addicted instantly. It's depends on living conditions. Also alcohol is just as bad as many illegal drugs. Ok, [B]leave meth/crack/heroin illegal[/B], those really are too hardcore for humans.
Really, research should be done legally and objectively. No propaganda shit, [B]only that way we will see which drugs should be legal and illegal. [/B]
Nobody should fear drugs, but should respect them or it can fuck their lives.[/QUOTE]
Now I can entirely agree. I thought you were going for the "legalize [B]everything[/B]" argument.
[editline]21st September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Andokool12;32412761]Ew, are you kidding me? That's not only a terrible argument because it's pure choice (well technically milk isn't safer than alcohol because you can mix the two right?), but "most of the time you mix it with tobacco" makes no sense to me. That's purely reliant on who you're with and what they prefer and what [B]you[/B] prefer - personally none of my friends (or me) are cigarette smokers so the simple thought of mixing it with tobacco has never come up and would probably be shot down in disgust quickly.
I rated you disagree but I just realized I don't really disagree with everything else you said so nevermind that.[/QUOTE]
You [B]have[/B] to mix hash with tobacco and that's what I usually smoke. Now I find that smoking plain weed is kind a waste considering how expensive the shit is and I don't know anyone not cutting it with tobacco. But yeah that was a bad point anyway I'll give you that.
[QUOTE=SilentOpp;32411573]I agree. People say all the time that weed isn't addictive and won't hurt you, but I've had a few friends that went from smoking nothing, to weed, and the on to some heavier stuff. It's more than just the weed, I know, it's them, but I've seen it happen.
Is this study really even proving anything? There may be a lower crime rate around the dispensery, but is that because of the weed or just chance? Does that mean people outside the area aren't driving to it to get weed, and are therefor commiting more crime?
I don't think a legal dispensery of anything will have any negative or positive effect on the crime rate in the immediate area. Now, an illegal shop selling heavy drugs to locals? That could probably cause some serious issues.[/QUOTE]
While this may be true in some cases, i've been smoking it for around 6 years, and i've never really had the desire to move to anything hard. I've actually only had 2 harder drugs in my system ever, unbeknownst to me at the time, there was ecstasy and cocaine in some bud i bought.
I only really know one or two people that fit the "weed is a gateway" path.
Maybe less crime around them... the one I work at has been broken into twice in as many months.
Maybe they set up these dispensaries in areas with less crime instead of it being the cause of less crime?
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.[/QUOTE]
Doesn't happen that much.
There are countries you are allowed to smoke pot where you want, and those countries are not facing huge hard drug problems.
I am all for rules and regulations. Legalize all drugs but only spread the drugs through licenced places with tight quality control and a set amount a person may get a day. And every user needs a card that shows how many times he used already so that he won't just go to the next place.
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.[/QUOTE]
So, uh, legalize heroin and cocaine. That solves that problem.
[editline]21st September 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=sami-elite;32414085]Doesn't happen that much.
There are countries you are allowed to smoke pot where you want, and those countries are not facing huge hard drug problems.
I am all for rules and regulations. Legalize all drugs but only spread the drugs through licenced places with tight quality control and a set amount a person may get a day. And every user needs a card that shows how many times he used already so that he won't just go to the next place.[/QUOTE]
No, allow people to get what they want. We can already buy as much alcohol and tobacco that we want. Why should we restrict other drugs?
[QUOTE=goon165;32412080]seriously, eventually the counter argument against legalization is going to degrade into "[B]B-BECAUSE IT'S BAD.[/B]"[/QUOTE]
It already is..
[QUOTE=Angry Frenchman;32411438]Legalization is not just all about it being safer than cigs (btw, that's pretty stoopid to say since most of the time you mix tobacco and weed altogether) or alcohol. I'm personally for it being legal in my country, but you have to take in account once you'll be able to buy some everywhere you'll most likely get people moving on to much stronger drugs such as heroin or coke. I can't count the amount of friends I have who smoked or still smoke to be "AgAInst Tha LaW fu dah police". Add to that small dealers will have a lack of income and will start selling said heroin or coke in front of highschools when they were just giving away some weed or hash.
Also I'd like to point out that this is still a drug, just because it's not as harmful health wise as alcohol doesn't mean it's perfectly safe when overused. When you're being depressive as shit you tend to smoke everyday and be high almost constantly instead of trying to move on or fix your shit together.
Just thought I'd add my two cents, I'm smoking with friends from times to times and that's great but I've also seen people changing entirely because of this.[/QUOTE]
I would like proof that smoking a lot of weed is harmful for you.
you won't find any unbiased studies sir.
[QUOTE=Javascript;32411565]yes, probably because everyone is too stoned to even make an attempt at causing crime, they're more focused on taco bell's $5 box[/QUOTE]
"I wassss going to rob taco bell today, but I guess I'll just order a taco"
[QUOTE=DrBreen;32414467]I would like proof that smoking a lot of weed is harmful for you.
you won't find any unbiased studies sir.[/QUOTE]
I've been smoking heavily for a year (which is quite short) and stopped when I noticed it was going too far. I was doing lots of basic grammatical errors I wouldn't have done in the past back then and I can feel my memory isn't all that good anymore. Can't remember shit I've done yesterday, stuff like that. I also had troubles focusing on a task but seems like it's gone now. My ex on her side, didn't stop and I can assure you she doesn't behave the way she did before she even started.
Lots of studies about drugs are biased that's for sure, but not all of them are and not everything in those biased ones are wrong. Once again, I smoke, I smoked, I will smoke. But I admit from my own experience and what I read that it's not all good or all bad.
[QUOTE=Ninja Duck;32413475]Maybe they set up these dispensaries in areas with less crime instead of it being the cause of less crime?[/QUOTE]
"They found a 59% increase in crime within three-tenths of a mile of a closed dispensary compared to an open one and a 24% increase within six-tenths of a mile."
They increased AFTER the dispensary was closed.
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