Steroids thread v2: haha im so jacke- oh god there is milk leaking out of my nipple help

[JaegerMonster]

Ok so the last steroids thread was really sporadic in actual information and was to be honest, a piece of shit. With this thread I'm going to attempt to cover a wide range of information, while hopefully still striking a balance between useful/interesting information while still providing a text that isn't overbearing with jargon. There's not enough space here, nor do i have the will or knowledge to write out a whole book on endocrinology and how steroids work, so I'll try to keep it to the relevant parts. Disclaimer: [B]THIS POST SHOULD NOT BE TREATED AS A GUIDE TO ANABOLIC STEROID USE, IT IS ONLY AN INFORMATIONAL OVERVIEW, NOR IS IT TO ENCOURAGE ANABOLIC STEROID ABUSE. ANYONE PLANNING ON ABUSING ANABOLIC STEROIDS SHOULD DO THEIR OWN RESEARCH DESPITE THIS THREAD[/B]

[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/79/Depo-testosterone_200_mg_ml_crop.jpg/220px-Depo-testosterone_200_mg_ml_crop.jpg[/img]

1. [B][U]What are Anabolic Androgenic Steroids?[/U][/B]

Anabolic steroids, technically known as anabolic-androgen steroids (AAS) or colloquially as "steroids", are drugs that mimic the effects of testosterone and dihydrotestosterone in the body. They increase protein synthesis within cells, which results in the buildup of cellular tissue (anabolism), especially in muscles. Anabolic steroids also have androgenic and virilizing properties, including the development and maintenance of masculine characteristics such as the growth of the vocal cords, testicles, and body hair (secondary sexual characteristics). The word anabolic comes from the Greek ἀναβολή anabole, "that which is thrown up, mound", and the word androgenic from the Greek ἀνδρός andros, "of a man" + -γενής -genes, "born".

Anabolic steroids were first isolated, identified, and synthesized in the 1930s, and are now used therapeutically in medicine to stimulate bone growth and appetite, induce male puberty, and treat chronic wasting conditions, such as cancer and AIDS. (ye i stole this above part from wikipedia, tongue my bag you eagle eyed shithead)

[B]An introduction to steroids:[/B]

Contrary to erroneous media reporting, steroids were never, with the exception of Dianabol, created for the purpose of being ergogenic (performance enhancing) aids. In fact, with the exception of a few compounds, almost all steroids have been created with the intention of being used to treat various medical conditions.

AAS is generally modified compounds derived from one of three naturally occurring androgen: Testosterone, DHT and 19-nortestosterone.

Ideally the medical community wants a steroid compound that has all the anabolic (in colloquial sense, anabolic typically refers to something promoting growth) properties without the androgenic (masculine, aka virilizing) properties, and this has lead to the many attempts to create a compound that suits this purpose. However it should be noted to date, that no compound is truly anabolic OR androgenic, they all exhibit both effects to varying degree and ironically enough this pursuit of isolated effects has actually lead to some woefully inferior steroids for health problems as there is a lot of necessary crossover between the two categories of effects, a synergy so to speak.

The list of medical problems that benefit from AAS administration is enormous and I don't think I could possibly cover it in detail here.

With ergogenic (aka "off label" "non medically supervised" "[B]abuse[/B]") use, the objectives are rather simple. Steroids are used because they create environments in the body that are conducive to the broad range of athletic goals: muscle building, muscle performance (strength, explosiveness, speed etc), fat loss, endurance, etc. Perhaps the biggest benefit they offer athletes is the dramatically improved recovery from injury and adaptation to stress, allowing for less fear of injury and a more productive environment because the athlete can train much more frequently with very little downtime.

The first steroid hormone isolated and synthesized was Testosterone, often referred to as the "male hormone". Experiments with human administration began as early as 1938, perhaps more notably, steroids were used both in Nazi experimentation on concentration camps, and on the opposite, by the allies in nursing concentration camp survivors back to good health.

AAS's muscle building power basically works through two main mechanisms: anti-catabolic effects via reducing/inhibiting inflammatory steroids/hormones (such as cortisol and glucocorticoids), and a huge increase in protein synthesis. However, while these are the main two mechanisms responsible, it also creates a favorable environment by such things as the effects androgens have on the nervous system (this is why steroid users can get stronger much faster and are overall capable of much greater feats of strength) and by improving cell differentiation (aka "nutrient partitioning", so the end effect basically means more energy and nutrients are utilized in muscle tissue and less in fat cells), as well as increasing the red blood cell count.

As stated before, the anabolic effects and the androgenic effects are overlapping to some degree; that is to say, various anabolic mechanisms are reliant on certain androgenic mechanisms and vice versa. The androgenic effects of steroids are stuff you were probably taught about in sex ed, male sexual characteristics: Growth of pubic hair, growth of masculine pattern hair (chest, back, facial hair), increased vocal cord size and thickness, increased libido, growth of the penis, etc. Androgens seem to have a hardening effect on muscle tissue that is not fully understood and androgens are also active in fat cells, leading to a greater rate of fat loss and utilization. I cannot possibly cover how androgens work to masculinize the brain, but suffice to say, they do, and contrary to the popular feminist belief that masculine behavior is just a creation of society: it's not, and it's supported by the research in this area.

[B]Testosterone: the "male hormone":[/B]

Testosterone is the primary male androgen in mammals. It's not just "lol that thing that makes u a man", it's not only responsible for the development of the male body and brain, it's responsible for a variety of physiological functions that keep you in good health and protect you from disease. Again this is one of those topics that I cannot possibly cover in enough detail here, as it plays into the vast network that is the endocrine system. So I will only touch on the relevant parts w/r/t this topic. If you would like to get a greater insight into the vast roles testosterone plays, the wikipedia article is actually really good: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone[/url]

Testosterone is the primary androgen in the male body, it also responsible for being the substrate for two other very important hormones that convert from testosterone: Dihydrotestosterone (DHT), a powerful androgen and Estradiol (E2), an estrogen. Both of these hormones have very important physiological functions. Testosterone is actually a weaker androgen than DHT, but while testosterone is highly active in skeletal muscle, DHT is more active in other areas of the body, such as the adrenal glands, prostate, hair follicles and testes. DHT is actually the hormone responsible for the development of your male sexual characteristics, including penis growth and it also plays a huge role in libido (sex drive) function. DHT also has a slight anti-estrogenic effect in certain tissues which I will touch on later. DHT is converted from testosterone via the 5-Alpha-Reductase enzyme.

Estradiol is important for bone health, blood lipids and sex drive among others. It's a very potent estrogen and has a negative feedback effect on testosterone (which is why when anti-estrogens are used, testosterone production will increase substantially as this negative feedback loop is lowered). Estrogen is [I]slightly[/I] anabolic in muscle tissue, but is also somewhat of a weird hormone in that is possesses both lipolytic (fat burning) and lipogenic (fat storing) properties. E2 is converted from testosterone via the Aromatase enzyme.

[B][U]2. Steroids: methods of administration[/U][/B]

Steroids typically are typically administered in injectable or oral fashion, although sometimes transdermally (skin gels, patches etc), renal (yes someone people have shoved dbols up their ass) or sublingually (under the tongue).

Injectable preparations typically consist of a steroid hormone attached to an ester (this slows the release pattern of the hormone, however it does [I]not[/I] change the effects of the hormone) in sterile oil. The other type of injectable preparation which is still around but rarely used is called a "suspension" which is a rather crude preparation where an hormone with no ester is suspended in sterile water, these injections are typically very painful within a few hours because you are shooting water and hormone crystals directly into the muscle tissue. Injectable steroids are usually the core focus of a cycle because of their ideal absorption (generally near 100%, as opposed to say, 70-80% with methylated orals) and because of the ability to administer very large dosages quite easily (again, 1ml of most injectable preparations is typically anywhere from 100mg up to 400mg, as opposed to oral tablets which are generally 5-25mg at the most and are liver stressful to boot)

Oral administration is typically a hormone that has been modified to survive first pass metabolism in the liver, dramatically improving the absorption rate which would otherwise be unreliable. However this modification (17aa/methylated) changes the effects of the hormone and also makes it somewhat hepatotoxic (liver toxic/stress). Dianabol being the most famous example of oral steroids. Oral steroids are almost always esterless and this leads to very fast action, hence both their frequent dosing due to the very short half life and their popularity as a "kick starter" to cycles with long estered steroids.

[B][U]3.Steroid "cycling": what and why[/U][/B]

With steroid use, a common practice is "cycling" which is the practice of administering supraphysiological levels of steroids for a relatively short period of time (typically 8 or 12 weeks) before going cold turkey and performing what is called Post Cycle Therapy, which is a period of time where you administer certain types of drugs with the intention of promoting more rapid recovery of your HPTA (Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Testicular-Axis, alternatively known as the Hypothalamic-pituitary-Gonadal Axis, or HPGA).

Exogenous steroid administration suppresses the HPTA and endogenous production of testosterone which I will expand on in the PCT section.

The practice of cycling is done to maximize the benefits while limiting exposure to adverse effects. A get in, get the job done, get out method of use.

Some people choose not to cycle and rather stay on semi-permanently, this is typically seen in professional bodybuilders, strongmen and some powerlifters etc. Typically these men are already on Testosterone Replacement Therapy due to their severe suppression of the HPTA from staying on indefinitely, so the idea of cycling is silly for them. Typically these men will do what is called a "blast and cruise" which is the practice of "cruising" on a low(ish) dose of one compound (typically testosterone) year round, with cycles of "blasting" where they use multiple compounds and/or aggressive dosages.

Staying on for very long periods of time can potentially lead to hypogonadism, although to what degree the testes are permanently shut down and to what degree endocrinologists just aren't doing enough to kickstart their patient's HPTA before chucking them on TRT is of great debate.

"stacking" is the practice of using two or more different steroid compounds in an attempt to achieve better results.

[B][U]4. Steroid side effects, myths and misinformation[/U][/B]

Steroids have received a woefully bad reputation in popular culture and ever since the 1987 olympic scandal involving Canadian Sprinter Ben Johnson, there has been a media fueled smear campaign on steroids to the point where people who know literally nothing about steroids hear the word, and think it's synonymous with cheating, violence and deleterious body changes.

To start, let's be clear: Anabolic steroids are literally some of the safest drugs in use today - in the short term. They do however have side effects, and long term abuse can have serious health concerns. For the most part however, the side effects are either greatly misunderstood and erroneously reported by the media, or are rather overblown.

[I][B]Steroid myths[/B][/I]:

"steroids shrink your penis" - this is a erroneous fuck up of the actual side effect whereby steroid use will temporarily atrophy the testicles. Androgens cause the penis to grow, so the idea that androgens will cause it to shrink is ridiculous. More over, steroids are given as a treatment for micropenis, so you can see how silly it is to believe this.

"Roid rage" - This is an sensationalist media exaggeration of a very real side effect of steroid abuse. Strong Androgens can promote increases in aggression - however there in lies where journalists jump the gun and make claims from shit they have no understanding of. Androgens typically increase the aggression reponse on fight-flight challenges and dominance challenges, meaning when presented with a perceived challenge a person is more likely to pick a fight option, this isn't literal: it could be as simple as arguing. Dominance challenges are a bit more literal, men are more likely to be selfish and punish others for perceived selfishness than women are, similarily, androgens may promote competitive behavior and lower empathy. Roid rage however, as described by the media depicts a psychotic episode, and this suggests the person in question has pre-existing mental issues or has had a mental breakdown, which has nothing to do with androgens. Androgens do not make you lose control of your actions. Also many studies have shown testosterone administration in hypogonadal men IMPROVES mood and emotional stability (ever wonder why old men are so fucking grumpy? It's because their androgen production is nil). So all this is contrary to the idea that steroids turn you into a raging monster who just wants to murder his family for the gainz.

"steroids make you lose your hair" - This is actually kind of true, but again, an erroneous exaggeration of a misunderstood situation. Men with the Male Pattern Baldness gene are highly susceptible to hair loss in, as the name describes, Male Pattern, which is typically the scalp where DHT is very active. Steroid use in these men can aggressively promote hair loss. For a good deal of people however, they do not have MPB and do not suffer accelerated hair loss from steroids. Measures can be taken to prevent or slow down hair loss in these individuals which will be discussed below.

"steroids stunt your growth" - Again, this one is kind of true but largely misunderstood. Androgens promote growth and are actually prescribed to adolescents with statutory problems to promote skeletal growth. However, estradiol (an estrogen) is responsible for causing the closure of the growth plates, which is part of the reason girls are typically of shorter stature and finish their growth pattern earlier than boys do in puberty. Near the end of male puberty there is a large spike in testosterone which also causes a concurrent increase in E2 levels, which slowly cause ossification of the growth plates resulting in your final adult height. So [I]in theory[/I] aromatising steroids do carry the potential to stunt your growth before it's completed, however, anecdotally this seems a little more dicey as certain individuals have abused large amounts of aromatising steroids (Arnold Schwarznegger was rumored to have been abusing dianabol and testosterone since he was 16, and still ended up as an adult of 6'2 in height) and still grew after their use - possibly because the limited time while on cycle wasn't enough to cause ossification, which is generally a slow process, as most things related to bone growth are. Any potential growth stunting could be avoided by A) using non-aromatising steroids (and these are the compounds generally prescribed for growth promotion) or B) employing an Aromatase Inhibitor to keep E2 levels in the very low physiological range.

[B][I]Actual steroid side effects[/I]:[/B]

Gynecomastia: Commonly called "gyno", gyno is the abnormal development of mammary glands in males resulting in breast enlargement. Again, erroneously reported by the media, this does not actually happen directly from all steroids. It's the product of very high estradiol levels for long periods of time. Estrogen binds to the receptors in the breast tissue and causes estrogenic growth. This is avoided/prevented rather easily with the use of A)non-aromatizing steroids, B) the use of SERMs (see SERMs in ancillary compounds) or C) the use of AIs (see AIs in ancillary compounds). It should also be noted, some individuals are more susceptible to this than others, and have problems with even small amounts of aromatising steroids, while others have used extreme doses of aromatising steroids with little to no problems. It is not an instant process, it is very gradual and users normally see warning signs well before anything permanent happens. Typical signs will be sore/itchy nipples, and a small, hard lump building up under the nipple. In very rare cases, and this is a relationship I still can't wrap my head around, high levels of estrogen can stimulate prolactin and progesterone leading to lactating (breast milk basically) gyno - this however seems to be extremely rare as most AAS do not in any way stimulate these hormones.

Acne: Strong Androgens can promote acne, especially around the upper back and shoulder region. High level of estrogen can also be an exacerbating factor. Generally speaking acne is mild unless the individual is particularly prone. Acne can be treated with over the counter topical washes, or more effectively: superdosing pantothenic acid (vitamin b5). B5 seems to cause an initial outbreak but subsequently effectively reduces acne. In Extreme cases one might be inclined to use accutane, but this also has far more side effects.

Aggression: See "roid rage" in steroid myths. Androgens can promote aggression, although the type of aggression is greatly misunderstood. Testosterone and other close relatives typically improve mood and disposition, dianabol is famous for it's mood enhancing properties to the point where some people have jokingly labelled it "an anti-depressant with a side effect of muscle gain". Certain steroids do however promote aggressive and irritable behavior, such as trenbolone which has a well established reputation for behavioral changes in certain individuals (which tbh is probably mainly because of the lack of quality sleep seen on trenbolone)

Liver damage: Oral steroids are typically 17aa methylated, a modification to the structure of the steroid that allows them to survive first pass metabolism in the liver and increases bioavailbility. This however also places stress on the liver. Oral steroids have been demonstrated to cause significant liver damage in some cases, for the most part however, this is overstated. None the less, it is highly recommended to get a liver checkup while utilizing 17aa compounds, avoid alcohol use and limit the duration of use to 6 weeks. The liver is also generally an organ that suffers much damage and regenerates itself over time. Generally speaking binge drinking is much more harmful than most oral compounds, however the trade off of course is most people aren't binge drinking every day of the week, so it's hardly a fair comparison.

Blood pressure: steroids tend to cause a modest increase of blood pressure that is not concerning and may even be beneficial in certain circumstances (steroids increase red blood cell count and improve the ability to carry oxygen, which is also contributes to the increase in blood pressure) but has been noted in certain cases to cause hypertension in some individuals. The worst offenders for blood pressure increase are generally anything that causes a large increase in subcutaneous water retention which are typically highly aromatising steroids. In extreme cases some individuals have experienced nose bleeds from certain compounds.

Blood lipids/cholesterol changes: Perhaps the single hands down most concerning side effect of steroid abuse, is the deleterious effect on blood lipids. Steroid abuse generally sees a nosedive in HDL (good cholesterol) values with LDL ("bad" cholesterol - not technically bad but in this case it represents a process that is not desirable) values remaining the same or increasing. An isolated cycle is of virtually zero concern, but long term abuse is a risk factor for heart failure. Certain steroids have worse effect on blood lipids, for example 17aa oral steroids are particularly bad in this case, and generally speaking non-aromatising (doesn't convert to estrogen) are typically more impacting than aromatising steroids. Aromatase inhibitors also generally see a negative shift in these values, because of the lowered E2. Estrogen has a positive impact on cholesterol values and as such it's generally a good idea to keep an aromatising steroid in a cycle so there is an estrogen substrate to lower the negative impact.

Infertility: Due to the suppression of the testes while supraphysiological levels of steroid are being administered, sperm production is also suppressed temporarily. There's no way of giving an absolute value, it varies dramatically from person to person and depends on a variety of circumstances. At any rate, many steroid abusers have had so called "happy accidents" on cycle having unprotected sex with their girlfriends/spouses because they didn't expect to be fertile. Woops bitch, tricked ya! Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG) which is routinely (and rightly so) starting to become a part of people's steroid cycles can maintain the function of the testes, and increase fertility.

[B][U]5. AAS compounds[/U][/B]

In this section I'll talk about the commonly used steroid compounds and even some more obscure ones, and provide a rating system. As a foreword, you may have heard about the "anabolic:androgenic ratio" and seen this rating used by many websites to judge steroids. This is absolutely wrong as I have found out, due to the way the experiments to judge these ratios was conducted, and as a result, has resulted in some rather strange values that don't at all match up with the real world effects. For example, [I]Masteron[/I] (Drostanolone) is considered less androgenic than [I]Testosterone[/I] by a rather large value. However in practice, masteron is a much more androgenic steroid popular for it's hardening effects and huge increase in libido. You may notice in this section, as opposed to some steroid sites, I don't refer to steroids separately based on their esters, if they have the same parent hormone. This is because contrary to some retards belief, the ester does NOT change the effects of the steroid. Testosterone propionate is the same as testosterone enanthate. Little differences in the presence of side effects may be perceived, but this is usually because people using long esters typically administer an injection schedule that results in fluctuating blood levels which can increase the presence of certain side effects, while short ester users typically inject every day or every other day which makes for very stable blood levels.

It's also worth recognizing that almost all steroids exhibit a mixing pot of effects so to speak. You might hear some dudes saying "oh this is a bulking steroid", "this is a steroid used for cutitng cycles" - this is bullshit. Almost all of the steroids claimed to be bulking compounds can be used effectively in a cut, and likewise almost all of the so called cutting compounds are very effective tissue builders. I'll play devil's advocate however and agree, some steroids exhibit effects that are more beneficial for certain goals than others. For example, for fat loss, ideally you want to keep estrogen levels low, and androgen levels high. This makes something like Anapolan/anadrol a poor choice, while a combination of testosterone and masteron could procure much better results.

As an aside, Bill Roberts, a respected author on AAS, has steroid profiles written on here that are worth reading: [url]http://thinksteroids.com/steroid-profiles/[/url]

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[B]Testosterone[/B]:

You might have heard someone on other boards refer to test as "the king of steroids" or the "test is best" catch phrase, with good reason. This is identical to the stuff produced in your body, and in supraphysiological doses, testosterone is a very powerful steroid. It's popular because it's cheap (and therefore there is usually little incentive to underdose or mislabel) widely available and is good at just about everything. It's a powerful tissue builder, is quite good at building strength and is fairly good at promoting fat burning/keeping you lean. Side effects wise testosterone is actually one of the least harsh on your body, the main concern for people using strong amounts of testosterone is the conversion to E2, which is why AIs are commonly employed to keep E2 in the normal range. Individuals genetically predisposed to Male Pattern Baldness need to be concerned, as with supraphysiological levels of testosterone also mean supraphysiological levels of DHT, potentially increasing the rate of hair loss. The conversion to DHT can be blocked with the use of 5AR inhibitors, however this is not usually recommended unless the person knows for sure they have a MPB problem, as the inhibiton of DHT can fuck with your sex drive and 5AR inhibitors have a history of worrying permanent side effects in some individuals. On a compound to compound comparison, not much is actually better at building muscle than testosterone is, with the exception of maybe trenbolone (but even trenbolone is not a fantastic tissue builder by itself). This isn't to say testosterone based cycles don't benefit from stacking with other steroids; they most certainly do.

In the interest of muscle building testosterone is usually administered anywhere from 350mg/week up to 750mg/week. 500mg/week is a the commonly recommended number, especially for a 1st cycle. Generally, as with most steroids, a larger dose does impart better results (for example, in one study, the 600mg group built more muscle and lost slightly more fat than the 300mg group), however there is a point of diminishing returns. I.E while 600-750mg may provide much more results than 300 or 500mg, a larger dose might only be of very small benefit over that and not be cost effective or worth the increased prevalence of side effects.

Mass building: great
strength building: good
fat loss: okay
Aromatises: strongly
side effects: moderate with appropriate measures taken
Cost: very low
Popular esters: Propionate (short), Enanthate (long), Cypionate (long), Sustanon (blend)

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[B]Dianabol (Methandrostenolone, metandienone)[/B]:

Dianabol was one of the first synthetic steroid compounds and one of the first oral compounds (the other at the time being methyltestosterone) , it was created to give the American weightlifting team in the 1960s a chance against the Russians who were rumored to be giving their athletes some form of anabolic steroid.

Dianabol quickly became popular with bodybuilders and is still a very popular product today. Dianabol is notable in causing large intracellular water retention leading to an increase in muscle size diameter rather quickly and is particularly beneficial to strength, making it a popular compound with powerlifters and strongmen. Dianabol is also an underrated tissue builder, contrary to the popular belief that it's gains are "only water", it's just that the dramatic increase in water retention leads to a false appreciation of just how big the muscle has gotten, which may deceive the user when he stops dianabol administration and sees the loss in water retention.

Dianabol is converts to estrogen at a lesser rate than testosterone, however, it converts to a much more potent version of estradiol called methylestradiol, which can considerably increase the estrogenic effect. Dianabol is slightly less androgenic than testosterone, but still appreciably so. Due to being esterless, dianabol works rather quickly and peak blood concentrations are achieved in a very short period of time, making it a popular compound to "kick start" cycles based on long estered products, so improvements can be made while the long ester products take time to build up effects. Dianabol stacks well with just about anything, the most popular old school combination being testosterone and dianabol, a very powerful mass building cycle.

Dianabol also comes in a less common, but still fairly popular injectable preparation. It should be noted that contrary to popular belief, injected 17aa compounds DO stress the liver. It may however be slightly less impacting than oral administration.

Being a 17aa compound, Dianabol is liver stressful. Dianabol can also produce a considerably powerful "pump" effect, which can become slightly painful/uncomfortable in extreme circumstances (probably avoid doing endurance type events while on this, although endurance events are for retards anyway, so welp!) but can be combated by taurine supplementation. As pointed out before, dianabol does aromatise into a considerably potent type of estrogen, so it's very advisable to at least have an AI on hand, if not ran throughout the cycle, especially in a cycle combining multiple aromatising compounds.

Mass building: good
strength building: great
fat loss: poor
Aromatises: strongly
side effects: moderate to high
cost: low

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[B]Deca-Durabolin, NPP (Nandrolone)[/B]

Nandrolone is another very old school steroid and is a 19-nortestosterone derived compound. Have you ever seen something become extremely popular and remain that way, yet no one can tell you why they like it, they just "do" because everyone else does in a sheep like fashion (stretcher earrings jesus fucking christ...) ? Yeah, well Nandrolone is one of those compounds, it's popular for being popular.

Nandrolone became very popular back in the early era of steroid abuse because at the time bodybuilders did not have a market full of colorful compounds and easy access the way they do today, generally they only had access to pharmaceutical products and at the time the two most common were Testosterone and Nandrolone. The other reason nandrolone became popular is because at this time, anti-estrogenic compounds didn't really exist. Which meant individuals prone to estrogenic effects like gyno were weary of using high doses of testosterone. Nandrolone converts to estrogen at a much lesser rate than testosterone, so you can see at the time there was a legitimately good reason for using it. But in true sheep fashion, some people listened to some big guys about what compounds they like, took it as gospel and now today you still have people adding nandrolone to their cycles because "thats just what you do lol".

The other benefit nandrolone provides is it's protective effects on joints, which can make it desirable to athletes nursing an injury but still wanting to train hard.

With the advent of aromatase inhibitors, and even SERMs, there's really not much reason to use nandrolone unless for the joint protective injury. For some reason, despite the low conversion to estrogen, nandrolone still causes massive water retention (which may be part of it's "lubricating" effect on joints). As a tissue builder, nandrolone isn't that impressive comparatively (before someone freaks out like they did when I said this on 4chan, obviously I'm not saying you can't build muscle with nandrolone, of course you can) and it's not very androgenic, which may be desirable to people who have particularly bad sensitivity to androgens (think MPB, acne etc), but this may also effect it's ability as a fat loss or strength building drug. Really it's not a case of it being a woefully bad steroid, it's just that everything it can do, almost every other popular compound can do much better.

Nandrolone can effect libido negatively. Generally the infamous "deca dick" isn't seen if testosterone or some other form of strong androgen + estrogen substrate is ran along side it.

Nandrolone can increase prolactin levels, which can affect libido and can also potentially lead to "prolactin induced gyno" (lactating gyno, milk production etc) especially if estrogen is high. To avoid this it's recommended to use an anti-prolactin drug such as Cabergoline or Pramipexole.

It should also be noted nandrolone has a small but alarming history of causing recovery problems, which may just be due to people not respecting how long the decanoate (deca-durabolin is the most popular nandrolone product, Nandrolone Phenyl-Propionate is the same drug but with the short ester) ester is, or it could be something to do with the action of the drug. The metabolites of nandrolone can be detected for up to a year or more after use, making it an extremely stupid decision for any drug tested athlete to use. Overall, personally I just can't see much reason to ever use this compound. One redeeming aspect I suppose is that nandrolone is very cheap to produce, and is still widely produced on the pharmaceutical market, making acquiring a pharma grade product much more likely.

Mass building: okay
strength building: poor
fat loss: poor
Aromatises: weakly
Side effects: low to moderate, but small incidences of unexplained recovery problems
Popular esters: Decanoate (very long), Phenyl-Propionate (short)

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[B]Anavar (oxandrolone)[/B]:

Anavar is a DHT derived 17aa oral steroid (again, you can find injectable preparations of the same compound) with something of a cult following. Anavar is weakly androgenic, and a decent anabolic which has made it the drug of choice to administer to burn victims.

Anavar's popularity is something of a strange scenario. It's a very expensive drug to produce, and this in turn makes it an expensive drug to use in physique promoting dosages. It would seem a combination of it's cost and how often it's faked has made anavar a reputation purely out of some sort of perception that because it's expensive and rare, it must be something special. However, it is relatively a weak steroid. Proponents typically claim people have "just not ran it high enough" in terms of dosages, suggesting that the "real magic" of anavar is seen upwards of 100mg/day - this is ridiculous, any steroid at 700mg a week is going to produce impressive results.

Part of it's allure to the internet steroid community is based off one study showing that it was better at reducing abdominal fat in men than testosterone or nandrolone was - and from this people made several rather large assumptions that it was of magical fat burning ability. The reality is there are a lot of steroid compounds that are better fat burners than Testosterone and especially nandrolone, so one study showing improved abdominal fat reduction compared to these two drugs doesn't mean that much. It has however, given a cult following to anavar as a body recomposition/fat loss drug. In my estimation, I would say there are plenty of steroids that would trump or at the very least match anavar in this regard, while being much more wallet friendly to boot, namely: masteron, trenbolone and stanazolol (aka winny)

Anavar has however gotten some reputation recently as an effective strength promoting compound. Anavar would be a decent additive to a steroid cycle, but focusing a steroid cycle around anavar by itself or as the primary drug would be costly and probably not very effective IMO.

This said, anavar is in no way a bad steroid, just unnecessarily expensive one. Anavar is relatively side effect free and has gotten a reputation as one of the "safest" steroids to utilize, it does not convert to DHT or estrogen, it is is however a 17aa steroid, making it stressful to the liver, although the perception is that anavar may be less liver toxic than other 17aa steroids - whether this is true or not I have no idea. Anavar has be known to cause strong pumps, which can be counteracted with taurine supplementation.

Mass building: okay
strength building: good
fat loss: good
Aromatises: None
side effects: very low
cost: very high

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[B]Masteron (Drostanolone)[/B]:

Masteron is a DHT derived compound originally intended as a novel treatment for the breast cancer market. Masteron is a hugely popular drug, and for a long time was very hard to acquire for all but the most cashed up and connected bodybuilders.

Masteron's popularity derives from both it's physique hardening and fat loss benefits, as well as it's huge effect on libido - If you were to believe anabolic:androgenic ratios, you'd think masteron was a weak drug, but reality has proven this very much untrue. Masteron is very androgenic, much more so than testosterone. It's typically been fancied as a "pre-contest" or "cutting" drug, but the idea that it cannot be put to good use in a bulking cycle is absolutely untrue, historically the dosages used of masteron have been weak and may have lead this perception, as well as the prohibitive cost leading many athletes to choose to run it in lower dosages. Masteron is a fantastic additive to a testosterone cycle, even the TRT market has toyed with the idea of a combined masteron and testosterone therapy - the idea being that a split dosage of masteron and testosterone would be more anabolic and have greater libido support than the same total dosage of testosterone alone. Masteron is a great choice to add to any type of cycle in many regards, it can promote fat loss, it will harden the physique, can be a great lean tissue builder and is also a very good compound for strength.

Masteron does not convert to estrogen at all, and does not convert to DHT. It is very androgenic, which can promote acne for some people, and should absolutely be avoided by people concerned about their MPB. Masteron has also been noted to promote aggression in some people, and the strong effect on libido can be very distracting and annoying in some cases. Other than that, masteron is a pretty smooth drug to run, side effects wise, to the point where even the FDA was fairly liberal with their dosing limits for people back when this drug was on the market.

A word on masteron being an "anti estrogen", due to masteron's brief time on the breast cancer treatment market and because of a study showing tamoxifen + masteron treatment fairing better than tamoxifen alone, many people have jumped the gun and made the conclusion that masteron is a potent anti estrogen and can even be used in place of an AI. This is not true. Masteron does have anti-estrogenic effect, but in reality it's a rather weak one. The fact that the study came to the conclusion that patients tolerated the masteron + tamox treatment better doesn't mean much, and could be attributed to the fact androgen therapy would've made women feel better and more energized, not least because tamoxifen and other SERMs generally make women feel like shit. Masteron should absolutely NOT be relied on to provide significant anti-estrogen effect in a cycle with aromatising steroids.

Mass building: good
Strength building: good
fat loss: great
Aromatises: None
Side effects: very low
Cost: high
Popular esters: Propionate (short), Enanthate (long)

-------------------------------

[B]Winstrol (Stanazolol)[/B]:

Winstrol, aka winny aka stan aka stana aka stanazol aka whatever the fuck is infamous for two reasons: Greyhound doping and the 1987 Ben Johnson scandal at the olympics.

Winstrol is a DHT derived 17aa steroid that is seen with the same frequency as both an oral and a suspension injectable. Winstrol's an interesting steroid with a lot of mixed opinions. It's primarily used by those looking to increase athletic qualities without a large increase in mass, but this isn't to say it can't be used in a mass cycle, but I would not focus the cycle around winstrol if mass was the goal, rather it should be used as an additive to something such as testosterone.

Like most of the DHT derived compounds, winstrol has something of a hardening effect on the physique and can enhance fat loss. It's low cost and availability may make it a sort of "budget" buy in the face of more expensive but somewhat similar compounds like anavar or masteron. Overall, if funds are not an issue, or one can be assured of the quality of their product despite low pricing, I would say anavar is a superior compound.

Winstrol does not convert to DHT or estrogen, it is a 17aa compound though so it is liver toxic and therefore users should be cautious with the dosage and duration of use. Winstrol also seems to have, anecdotally at least, many incidences of causing joint problems. I don't know why this is, and interestingly enough, many physicians in the US administer winstrol for speeding up recovery from tendon damage. This would be greatly exacerbated by someone using winstrol alone, and therefore having no estrogen substrate. Estrogen is crucial to bone and joint health, and more often than not people who have crushed their estrogen with overly eager dosing of particularly powerful AIs also report similar joint problems, so I'm lead to believe joint problems from this compound are mostly reported by those running it without aromatising compounds in the mix. Winstrol is also a particularly harsh steroid on blood lipids, even more reason to limit it's duration of use.

Mass building: moderate
Strength building: good
Fat loss: decent
Aromatises: None
Side effects: low to moderate
Cost: low

---------------------------------

[B]Equipoise (Boldenone)[/B]

Equipoise is another one of those veterinary steroids that have achieved some sort of internet circlejerk simply for being a fringe product. Equipose is the trade name for a injectable preparation of Boldenone with the undeclynate ester. Boldenone was actually an attempt to create a non methylated version of dbol, but it acts nothing like dbol which comes back to the point that when you modify the compound you change the effects.

EQ is apparently notable for promoting a huge increase in red blood cell count (all steroids do this to varying degrees however), which has lead to a perception of being a compound suited to "endurance" or "conditioning, and promoting appetite considerably (again, an effect most steroids have). EQ is a lot like testosterone in many respects, but it converts to estradiol at a lesser rate. It's a good mass builder and a fairly solid strength compound, but overall is slightly weaker, probably due to it being less androgenic (women have successfully used this drug with very little virilization).

So we have another compound that isn't a poor steroid, it's just one that doesn't really have a place outside of the "candy shop" mentality of some steroid users. Almost all of the popular compounds can do whatever this drug can do, but better. The lesser conversion rate to estradiol could be desirable, but that same effect could be achieved with an aromatase inhibitor while still yielding the greater anabolic effect and androgenic effect of testosterone.

Part of the problem is the ridiculously long undecylenate ester. Without a frontload, it takes many weeks for this drug to achieve desirable blood concentrations, which is why you typically see EQ cycles being extended out to 16 weeks or so, the length/heaviness of the ester means you are also getting less actual steroid per mg. A few black market products have a boldenone acetate preparation, and I imagine this would be more impressive.

Side effects wise, Equipoise seems to be a pretty mild drug.

Mass building: Good
Strength building: okay
fat loss: okay
Aromatises: moderately
Side effects: low
Cost: moderate
Popular esters: Undecylenate (very long), acetate (short)

------------------------------------------------------

[B]Trenbolone[/B]:

Trenbolone aka tren aka fina, is a very interesting and very powerful steroid that has risen to notoriety in the steroid world. It is originally and still today, a veterinary steroid produced to increase the feed efficiency and rapidly improve the growth and lean meat yield of cattle. It's also of interest to professional bull riding - you ever see those big fucking yoked bulls that look like they were bred to fuck shit up? Yep they give those fuckers trenbolone. Tren is a 19-nortestosterone derived steroid. Tren is typically seen in preparations using the very short acetate ester and usually dosed at 75mg/ml to 100mg/ml.

Tren is a very impressive compound in a lot of regards. It's an extremely powerful tissue builder, is a fantastic strength promoting compound, and has seemingly magical effect when it comes to fat loss and body recomp, notoriously allowing many bodybuilders to be much more relaxed with their diet and caloric intake. Among all the steroids, if anything can be called truly more powerful than testosterone, it's trenbolone, and this has made it a very desirable compound to experienced users. To top it off, tren does not convert to estrogen at all. However tren run by itself, while still impressive, is not an amazing mass builder, and the best results are seen when it's stacked with testosterone, not least for having an estrogen substrate. Tren + test combos are favorite among many users, and produces some of the best changes seen among AAS use. Another synergistic combination is tren + dianabol.

So tren shapes up to sound like perhaps the best anabolic steroid ever created doesn't it? Not so fast, there is a price to pay and it can be considerable. Tren is the notorious owner of some bizarre (and hilarious) side effects. If any compound can legitimately be accused of causing "roid rage" it's tren. Tren seems to be incredibly androgenic and has caused a lot of people aggression problems, ranging from mild daily annoyance to full blown rages that have wrecked many users relationships. Hilariously (to me at least) tren can cause night terrors, dreams that are bizarre and very violent in nature. Tren also causes many users to sweat a lot, and can cause insomnia to varying degrees or lower the quality of sleep. Tren also seems to reduce cardiovascular performance in a lot of men, the mechanism to which it does this is unclear and I have not seen any solid literature regarding this. As with most things however, this can vary dramatically from person to person and just as many people have run tren with no incidences of the more concerning side effects of extreme aggression or insomnia.

A peculiar issue surrounding trenbolone is the allegations that it is a progestin or that it can cause progesterone/prolactin related gyno, which has lead to the verbatim advisement of running an anti-prolactin compound while using it. However this does not seem to be accurate, and prominent AAS expert Bill Roberts has wrote in great detail why this is false. The claims that tren must promote prolactin because "its a 19-nor" doesn't mean shit either, the fact it's a 19-nor steroid is of no relevance. Testosterone is actually more progesterone stimulating than Tren ever could be. Roberts does however offer an explanation for the incidences of prolactin gyno supposedly caused by tren: A) Not pure tren - Tren can be an expensive hormone to produce and unscrupulous chinese raw suppliers can sometimes be inclined to cut the raw tren with various of steroids of a much cheaper nature. B) Unscrupulous dealers might be inclined to save themselves some cost by topping off low tren vials with a bit of say, NPP, which is progesterone stimulating. C) poor estrogen control

None the less, it's not bad advice to run a anti-prolactin drug anyway, as they can be particularly beneficial drugs and when one doesn't have access to something that can provide a chemical assay or otherwise assure the purity of their product, it's better safe than sorry. Pramipexole in particular can be helpful with users suffering insomnia. Above all else with regards to prolactin/progesterone, estrogen control is a must.

Overall, trenbolone is a very potent, powerful compound but one that should probably be treated with much caution. It should also be noted that trenbolone can be a fairly expensive product.

Mass building: great
Strength building: great
Fat loss: fantastic
Aromatises: None
Side effects: very high
Cost: high
Popular esters: Acetate (short), Enanthate (long), Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate (very long)

------------------------------------------

[B]Superdrol (methyldrostanolone)[/B]:

Those of you who have heard the name before are probably wondering why I've included this "isn't superdrol a prohormone?". Superdrol is not at all a prohormone/pro-steroid. A prohormone is a compound that is inactive but is converted to active steroid compounds when inside the body. Superdrol is an oral steroid, just like dianabol or anavar, except it was never marketed through legitimate channels, and until relatively recently existed on the public supplement market through a loophole in FDA regulation. It still exists on the market today in so called "superdrol clones".

Superdrol is actually an attempt to create an oral version of Masteron, hence the chemical name methyl[B]drostanolone[/B]. However superdrol acts nothing like masteron in reality, and once again we see that the alteration to the compound drastically changes the effects.

The market name "superdrol", implying super anadrol, is actually somewhat accurate, this steroid acts more like a cross between masteron and anadrol. Superdrol is a rather interesting steroid in this regard, it causes very large and quick gains in size, due to a rapid increase in intramuscular water retention, but interestingly, superdrol is very "dry" as far as subcutaneous water retention goes. Strength gains are also rapid and considered very impressive with this compound. As far as being actually tissue building, superdrol is solid but not largely impressive, many users report the majority of their "gains" are transient after coming off, suggesting like above, the majority of size gains are a result of the intracellular water retention. Superdrol isn't considered to be highly androgenic, and does not convert to estradiol or DHT.

Superdrol is a 17aa methylated compound, so it is liver toxic and with regards to this, it's considered by far, one of the harshest, with a laundry list of liver damage cases attributed to superdrol use. Superdrol is also very harsh on blood lipids, probably not least because most users typically run it alone, I imagine stacking it with an estrogen substrate would improve that factor considerably. Superdrol also produces very noticeable pumps, and for many users, can produce painful lower back pumps, again, this can be combated with taurine supplementation.

Overall superdrol is a pretty strong product, and should be treated with due caution with regards to dosing and duration of use.

Mass building: good
Strength building: great
fat loss: weak
side effects: high
Aromatises: None
Cost: very low

------------------------------------------

[B][U]6. Ancillary compounds[/U][/B]

Ancillary compounds are generally drugs that are not anabolic/androgenic in nature, but rather are run to help control the prevalence of side effects on steroids. What people consider an ancillary varies a lot, and some people virtually have a small pharmacy in their possession, so I will focus on the mainstays.

[B]SERMs[/B]:

SERMs, or Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator, are a class of drugs that act on the estrogen receptor in various tissues. Most drugs of this class possess dual agonist and antagonist effects on the receptors, with relevance to this greater topic, we are specifically looking at drugs of this class that block the effects of estrogen from working on specific receptor sites. SERMs are generally employed in anabolic steroid cycles to prevent estrogen from binding to the receptors in breast tissue and therefore causing/exacerbating gyno when large amounts of estradiol are present. They are also used (sometimes erroneously) during Post Cycle Therapy, as they can boost gonadotropins like Leutinizing Hormone (LH) and Follicle stimulating Hormone (FSH) and can therefore improve testosterone levels/recovery (this will be expanded on in the PCT section where I will link an article explaining why this practice is partly wrong and misunderstood). Generally speaking, I'm against the use of SERMs where possible, as they are to be honest, rather nasty ass drugs in many respects. Where estrogen control is a concern, Aromatase Inhibitors are much better suited, as SERMs only act as a band aid to a much larger problem so to speak - they block the estrogen from binding to the receptor, but it does not deal with the problem of large amounts of estrogen still active in the body and acting in other tissues where the SERM might have no effect. This said, when AIs are not an option for whatever reason, Tamoxifen is an effective drug for stopping/preventing gyno.

I'm not going to expand on the various SERMs, mostly because I don't think there's any relevant information about the two mainstays, clomid (clomifene) or nolvadex (tamoxifen) that really needs to be in here. Briefly, both drugs by and large act by similar mechanisms and despite what many would like to believe, there is very little reason to use both, and can actually be wasteful in this regard. Clomifene has more literature backing up it's use in PCT/or treating male hypogonadism.

It should also be noted that both drugs can act as estrogens in certain tissues, for example both drugs have been seen to improve blood lipid profiles, and tamoxifen has also notably improved bone health - the other side of this is concern that tamoxifen can accelerate growth plate closure in the same manner.

[B]Aromatase Inhibitors[/B]:

Aromatase inhibitors, or AIs, are a class of anti-estrogenic drugs that prevent the synthesis of estradiol by rendering the aromatase enzyme inactive, or killing it. There are two types of AIs, non-steroidal reversible inhibitors (arimidex, letrozole), and steroidal suicidal inhibitors (exemestane). The main difference is that the former bind to the enzyme and render it inactive, while the latter kills the enzyme. This basically means that suicidal inhibitors carry the advantage of preventing estrogen rebound, while non-suicidal inhibitors like arimidex do not, and when you stop using the drug, there can be a estrogen rebound effect from a large amount of aromatase enzyme suddenly becoming active. However this effect is relatively short lived I imagine, and estradiol does not have a particularly long half life.

Again this is yet another class of drugs that was developed for and is utilized heavily in breast cancer treatment, but has also picked up widespread off label use among bodybuilders.

Aromatase inhibitors are the ideal choice of drug when estrogen control is of concern. Apart from gyno prevention in a cycle making use of aromatising compounds, they also play a part in reducing other unwanted side effects of high estrogen such as emotional/mood swings, and excessive water retention. Most AIs are relatively free of actual drug related side effects, but rather, most of the side effects seen are a product of pushing estrogen levels too low, which can lead to things such as: impaired blood lipid profile, joint/muscle pain, fatigue, low sex drive etc. To save space on an already very large post, I'm just going to link profiles for these drugs and then explain my preference for exemestane.

Arimidex - [url]http://thinksteroids.com/steroid-profiles/arimidex/[/url]

Letrozole - [url]http://thinksteroids.com/steroid-profiles/letrozole/[/url]

Exemestane - [url]http://thinksteroids.com/steroid-profiles/aromasin/[/url]

Exemestane has long been ignored, but in the past few years has started to see much more popularity and with good reason. Exemestane very good at suppressing the estrogen profile, but not enough that it will crush estrogen levels, as say, over zealous dosing of Letrozole can. It's a suicidal inhibitor which means rebound is not a possibility with this. Other than that, what we see of the drug is very impressive, it paradoxically increases IGF-1 levels (normally lowering estradiol drops IGF-1 levels), it is not harsh on blood lipids unlike the other AIs, it has a strong ability to lower SHBG (thereby allowing for more free testosterone, potentially making testosterone use slightly more effective) and more recently, it's been found it's metabolite acts as an androgen mimic, which may give it a role to play in PCT where energy levels are typically low. Overall, smart use of letrozole is the most cost effective, and arimidex will always be popular (and therefore widely available) for being popular, but exemestane is by far the best all around choice IMO, if the most expensive typically.

[B]Anti-prolactin drugs[/B]

Anti-prolactin drugs/compounds are typically, but not always (for example, megadosed vitamin b6 has weak but notable anti-prolactin effect), dopamine receptor agonists. Prolactin is one of those nasty hormones that serve some necessary functions but is absolutely a hormone we want to keep at low-normal levels. The main negative effects we are tying to avoid are lactating gyno, and sexual dysfunction.

Dopamine agonists such as cabergoline and pramipexole are recommended for use while utilizing compounds such as nandrolone and trenbolone (although again, as pointed out earlier, Trenbolone does not stimulate prolactin), although it should be noted high levels of estrogen can promote prolactin too. Other than this, there are many off-label uses to dopamine agonists, for example, they reduce the male sexual refractory period, possibly allowing for multiple orgasms to be experienced by men and lowering the downtime necessary between sex. Some authors have also written about the benefits of dopamine agonists in dieting, such as lyle Mcdonalds work on bromocriptine as a dieting aid. Dopamine agonists are wonderful drugs in many regards, but they should still be treated with caution as they can encourage compulsive behavior and hypersexuality (the concern is aimed at pramipexole in particular)

Cabergoline (brand names Dostinex and Cabaser) is the most widely available and used dopamine agonist by bodybuilders. For the most part, Cabergoline is relatively free of side effects besides GI tract disturbance such as nausea and vomiting in some people but generally this decreases with time. Cabergoline has however been implicated in valvular heart disease, which is worrying somewhat. That said, I very much doubt the length of time someone on a steroid cycle is using it for has much to worry about. Cabergoline also slightly suppresses growth hormone.

Pramipexole is one of the newest drugs in this class, and is starting to receive a lot of attention. Namely, it has been seen to boost growth hormone by a whopping 400% after dosing (however, this effect is relatively short lived, only a few hours, it's hard to say at this point if it would have any large benefit over time), and is being looked at as an alternative to traditional anti-depressants. Pramipexole is shaping up to be the DA of choice when trenbolone is involved, if only because pramipexole in some users will make them tired quickly after dosing and allow for a deep sleep, which many users find troublesome on trenbolone. It does not have the ability to cause valvular heart defects like caber might, because it does not have an affinity for the receptors responsible for this. Overall, Prami is a much better prolactin suppressor mg for mg, but caber is the cheaper buy because it's widely available and it does not require frequent dosing. Much like caber, prami can cause nausea and decreased appetite.

[B]5-Alpha Reductase Inhibitors[/B]

5-AR is the enzyme reponsible for the conversion of testosterone to DHT the peripheral androgen, 5-AR inhibitors, obviously are designed to inhibit that enzyme. I'll make it clear: I am very much against 5AR inhibition, and there is usually absolutely no reason for the vast majority of people to use 5AR inhibitors. DHT is a hugely important androgen, and while inhibition of 5AR has been found to, at least seemingly so, have no significant effect on muscle or strength gain of supraphysiological testosterone administration, it none the less remains an important androgen for male health and sex drive.

5AR Inhibitors are generally employed to prevent scalp hair loss while on cycle. However this has gotten out of hand in recent years, as some people do not seem to understand: [B]only males genetically susceptible to Male Pattern Baldness will have problems with androgen related hair loss[/B]. And even so, my opinion is people with MPB problems should either bite the bullet and shave your head (you are going to go bald eventually, 5AR inhibition will only halt hair loss, and running around with a patchy head of hair looks retarded and desperate) or : not use steroids, which will exacerbate it significantly.

5AR inhibitors have been found to have a small, but significant incidence of very worrying side effects. Permanent sexual dysfunction has been seen enough for a very prominent American endocrinologist to publicly state he will never prescribe Finasteride or Dutasteride to his patients, so that worries me. "Common ADRs include impotence, decreased libido, decreased ejaculate volume, depression, and anxiety. Rare ADRs include breast tenderness and enlargement (gynecomastia), and allergic reaction". Furthermore, ironically, 5AR inhibition carries the potential to lead to a serious condition in high grade prostate cancer, despite the fact the drugs were designed with treating benign prostate hyperplasia in mind.

[B]7. Post Cycle Treatment/Post Cycle Recovery[/B]

Much like the last thread, I'm very hesitant to write anything regarding PCT, because I'm very aware of the fact there will be a small number of retards who are far too lazy and will treat this post as a silver platter so to speak. And unlike other topics of AAS use that, at the end of the day, really doesn't fucking matter all that much, PCT on the other hand, is the most important facet of responsible steroid abuse, and therefore I think people need to do thoroughly engage in their own research on the matter. None the less, I will link a fantastic article written by a prominent author by the name of William Llewellyn.

[url]http://www.bodybuildingforums.com.au/anabolic-steroids/3128-confusion-of-using-serms-post-cycle-without-the-use-of-hcg.html[/url]

And very similar to the program outlined by Llewellyn above, we have an abstract of study that has formed the PoWeR plan:

[url]http://www.medibolics.com/ScallyVergelAstractHPGA.pdf[/url]

The program outlined in the above pdf is the ONLY clinically proven post cycle treatment plan. When hcg isn't utilized throughout a cycle, this is absolutely what I would recommend. [B]HCG is hands down the most single important drug of a smart AAS cycle and there is very little reason to not use it.[/B] The only thing I would change with this plan is I would utilize Exemestane at 12.5mg/day throughout this period, because HCG raises estradiol, and the androgen mimicking metabolite of Exemestane may help with energy levels during this period.

[B]8. Am I ready for AAS/When is it okay to take steroids?[/B]

First I'll get this out: [B]there's nothing wrong with being a natural trainee.[/B] There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a natural trainee, the problem I find with most natural trainees is they drastically overestimate how fast they will progress. Muscle tissue takes time to build, and this is even true when AAS is in the mix. If you're leaning towards steroid use because you don't think you aren't happy with your progress, you need to stop for a second and reassess your expectations - many guys complain about their slow rate of progress when the reality is they are making good progress, they just have bloated expectations from years of reading muscle mag marketing and a disproportionate view of what is naturally obtainable. Secondly, for the vast majority of natural trainees claiming they can't gain muscle, inevitably they are either: A) not training hard enough or B) not eating enough. Most problems with regards to muscle

[Ruski]

i love u jaeger

[Rhinovirus]

best post africa

[FoodStuffs]

well that kicks the shit out of any other information thread made this month on FP, easy.

[Seith]

Brillant post....

[zach1193]

Great job man!

[JaegerMonster]

ask some questions cunts

or discuss some shit

[Ruski]

ill cycle when im 25

that is all

[Lemonator]

Considering a winny cycle in about 2 years (oral), how much mass would you expect the average person to put on in a 5 week cycle?

also even after some web research I'm still not fully aware how much liver support and what vitamins exactly (milk thistle?)

[JaegerMonster]

[QUOTE=Lemonator;37903974]Considering a winny cycle in about 2 years (oral), how much mass would you expect the average person to put on in a 5 week cycle?

also even after some web research I'm still not fully aware how much liver support and what vitamins exactly (milk thistle?)[/QUOTE]

Winstrol isn't a particularly potent mass builder especially by itself. You might gain a few lbs of quality muscle but don't expect anything hugely dramatic.

Liver support is overrated, but milk thistle will help somewhat.

[Shovelpass]

Any cycle without test is pretty silly. Your sex drive will shut down completely because winny can't replace test. However, I have been reading a few things here and there from some guys who have had success completely replacing test with dbol and having success. Liver damage is extremely overblown by everyone but running dbol for a full cycle would definitely need some kind of support.

It's also supposedly what Arnold did. He didn't use any test at all, just dbol/deca/primo. Cruised on low dosages of dbol and deca. Pretty interesting stuff, if it's true.

[Lemonator]

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;37905801]Winstrol isn't a particularly potent mass builder especially by itself. You might gain a few lbs of quality muscle but don't expect anything hugely dramatic.

Liver support is overrated, but milk thistle will help somewhat.[/QUOTE]

I know it isn't that great for mass but what I want is something cheap with minimal/no side effects, and that I won't have to be too sketched out when it comes to PCT.

also how long will it phuck my sex drive and will it shrink my penor like deca?

[Shovelpass]

PCT is the same regardless of what compounds you're using. It's not like PCT after a winny cycle will be more safe than PCT after using something else. Winny also has plenty of side effects, aside from the dry joints it fucks your lipid profile silly.

It will fuck your sex drive because you won't be using any test with it, which is honestly just outright retarded. Your sex drive will be fucked until you recover during/after PCT. Also, Deca doesn't shrink your penis. Deca-dick is from prolactin build up, prolactin is what your body releases when you bust a nut, causing you to lose the erection. If you have too much prolactin, no boners for you. Also why substances that reduce prolactin like caber allow you to bust nuts and keep on pumping without losing your erection.

You need to get over your fear of injecting or doing legit cycles. Oral-only cycles are not safer, they are not much cheaper, and they are not as effective. Hell, if you're so absolutely terrified then just replace test with dbol like I was talking about above, a single cycle's worth won't destroy your liver and you'll get mad gains.

You'd be wasting your time with a winny cycle. You'd look nice and dry for the few weeks you're running it, then once you come off you will look exactly like you did before you went on. You will have shut down your natural test production and gone through all the risks involved with that for nothing. Won't even be able to enjoy getting more pussy while having the look since your dick will be broken.

[Lemonator]

I never had an issue with injecting in the first place, but anyway what I should be doing is invest into a proper cycle with test + something else?

[JaegerMonster]

[QUOTE=Lemonator;37918043]I never had an issue with injecting in the first place, but anyway what I should be doing is invest into a proper cycle with test + something else?[/QUOTE]

how old are you?

I don't subscribe to the "test in every cycle" parroting, because there have been plenty of productive cycles that have never included testosterone, however that being said: [I]there's just generally no good reason to not include testosterone at the very least in a TRT dose[/I]. It's cheap, it will amplify gains and give you an estrogen substrate to maintain sex drive, help protect blood lipids and improve energy levels.

The reason I ask how old are you is because if you think you have some years of growth left, I generally would recommend severely limiting aromatising compounds, so perhaps something with low dose testosterone, high dose non-aromatizing. Assuming you are happy with your growth or it's very unlikely you will grow anymore, you can be a lot more liberal with the aromatising steroids.

Winny is cheap, but it's that much cheaper that I wouldn't choose to other compounds if I had the option.

Here's a few of examples cycles I've thought up that would provide very good results and shouldn't be too expensive:

Testosterone propionate 350mg/week
Anavar 350mg/week
Aromasin 25mg/ED
8 weeks

This would provide some solid results without any notable bloat, relatively free of side effecs and shouldn't be too expensive. The prop could be switched out for long ester test like Enath or Cyp, but that would not be my preference personally. If doing so however I would frontload the enth/cyp so you are not waiting weeks just to get desired concentrations in the blood.

Primobolan 600mg/week
Dianabol 250mg/week
Aromasin 12.5mg-25mg/ED
10 weeks

This might be a little more higher on the cost side, but I would imagine it would be an interesting and very productive cycle. Primobolan injectable is typically enathanate ester so again, frontloading would be ideal. The dianabol will provide very good gains even at 250mg, as well as providing an estrogen substrate. Assuming you can get bloodwork, that would determine the aromasin dosage, failing that, I would run 25mg until low estrogen signs appeared in which case i would reduce to 12.5mg.

Testosterone propionate 350mg/week
Masteron propionate 500mg/week
Aromasin 12.5mg-25mg/ED
8-10 weeks

Again this shouldn't be too outside of most people's cost range, and will be a very productive cycle. A fair warning that masteron's boost to sex drive is very potent for a lot of men, and may even be distracting/annoying. Also the combined load of testosterone and masteron MAY exacerbate acne. However other than that it would be very well tolerated, and see some very good improvements in physique, body comp and strength.

[Seith]

Supposedly, let's say I have surpassed my genetic limit by using steroids, if I were to stop them and then start train naturally at some point in the future, is it possible those gains would return due to muscle memory despite hormonal differences?

[JaegerMonster]

[QUOTE=Seith;37923473]Supposedly, let's say I have surpassed my genetic limit by using steroids, if I were to stop them and then start train naturally at some point in the future, is it possible those gains would return due to muscle memory despite hormonal differences?[/QUOTE]

[url]http://thinksteroids.com/news/anabolic-steroids-result-in-permanent-muscle-gains/[/url]

To me surpassing your "genetic limit" means going past a state of muscle mass that your natural androgen levels can't maintain, so no I don't think so. I would be interested to see how long someone can maintain such a level of muscle mass on their natural androgen levels, because typically pro bodybuilders coming off steroids cold turkey is a bad example because they've been shutdown so long they are just literally never going to produce testosterone naturally again or at least not for a really long period of time.

Given the information in the link I'm inclined to believe former steroid users would however regain lost tissue at a faster rate or build muscle faster in general.

[Seith]

Brilliant read. Interesting...

[Lemonator]

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;37919837]
Testosterone propionate 350mg/week
Masteron propionate 500mg/week
Aromasin 12.5mg-25mg/ED
8-10 weeks

Again this shouldn't be too outside of most people's cost range, and will be a very productive cycle. A fair warning that masteron's boost to sex drive is very potent for a lot of men, and may even be distracting/annoying. Also the combined load of testosterone and masteron MAY exacerbate acne. However other than that it would be very well tolerated, and see some very good improvements in physique, body comp and strength.[/QUOTE]

This sounds like a cycle I would run, could the aromasin be replaced with any other on cycle therapy and everything would run just as smooth?

also I would be taking doxycycline on cycle for acne control.

[JaegerMonster]

[QUOTE=Lemonator;37931024]This sounds like a cycle I would run, could the aromasin be replaced with any other on cycle therapy and everything would run just as smooth?

also I would be taking doxycycline on cycle for acne control.[/QUOTE]

You could replace it with any other aromatase inhibitor, it would not be my preference however.

I suggested those cycles on the basis of someone who still had potential years of height growth left, yet was not willing to wait to use AAS. So I also suggested aromasin because it is strong enough at 25mg to keep estradiol to the very low-normal range thereby probably avoiding any spike in estradiol and avoiding accelerating growth plate closure.

So yes you could switch it out for say, Arimidex, however arimidex is not nearly as strong and that would defeat the purpose. Letrozole would serve the goal well, however letrozole is fiddly to find a dosage that keeps E2 in low-normal range without absolutely annihilating it.

[editline]6th October 2012[/editline]

I fail to see how Doxycycline would be used for acne, but then I don't really know much about the drug anyway

[Seith]

It's an antibiotic. Personally, If I were to add anything against acne it would be Benzac 5%... You got enough shit in you as it is, and now taking antibiotics is like eating raw shit.

ALSO:

[url]http://thinksteroids.com/news/testosterone-research-studies/[/url]

free test :)

[Perfumly]

[img]http://i.imgur.com/XQ6zV.jpg[/img]

[Lemonator]

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;37931966]
So yes you could switch it out for say, Arimidex, however arimidex is not nearly as strong and that would defeat the purpose. Letrozole would serve the goal well, however letrozole is fiddly to find a dosage that keeps E2 in low-normal range without absolutely annihilating it.

[editline]6th October 2012[/editline]

I fail to see how Doxycycline would be used for acne, but then I don't really know much about the drug anyway[/QUOTE]

I was only asking if aromasin was easily replaced with anything because the site I'm going to use doesn't seem to sell it, but if it's the best inhibitor I'll just order it separate.

also doxy is fine, I'd rather take an antibiotic instead of a drug that might fuck up the cycle (accutane)

[Ryz0]

i reckon i'll cycle when im 19, probably too young

[JaegerMonster]

[QUOTE=Lemonator;37941378]I was only asking if aromasin was easily replaced with anything because the site I'm going to use doesn't seem to sell it, but if it's the best inhibitor I'll just order it separate.

also doxy is fine, I'd rather take an antibiotic instead of a drug that might fuck up the cycle (accutane)[/QUOTE]

what site is that?

[url]www.researchstop.com[/url] - they sell all typical ancillary compounds in liquid forumlations. AFAIK in the US these drugs are all legal to possess as long as they are purchased with the understanding they are not for human comsumption, aka they are sold as "research chemicals" which are just generic versions of the same drug minus the trade name and whatnot. My research rodents love aromasin.

[Lemonator]

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;37942646]what site is that?

[url]www.researchstop.com[/url] - they sell all typical ancillary compounds in liquid forumlations. AFAIK in the US these drugs are all legal to possess as long as they are purchased with the understanding they are not for human comsumption, aka they are sold as "research chemicals" which are just generic versions of the same drug minus the trade name and whatnot. My research rodents love aromasin.[/QUOTE]

-Dont post sources you retard-

also since I live in Canada I can posses a cycle worth of gear legally and I can do anything I want with it when I'm 18 right?

[JaegerMonster]

[QUOTE=Lemonator;37942767]

also since I live in Canada I can posses a cycle worth of gear legally and I can do anything I want with it when I'm 18 right?[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure what the laws are in Canada. I thought they were similar to Australia in that BAN EVERYTHING NANNY STATE YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH YOUR BODY WITHOUT CONSULTING US DO NOT PASS GO DO NOT COLLECT $200

[Shovelpass]

mpresearchsupply.com is a good research chems site, though some have claimed their aromasin is bunk. Their letro and arimedex is g2g though.

alldaychemist.com has legit aromasin (just make sure you buy the generic kind and not the super expensive one) but they are based out of India so the order will take some time to reach you.

Both sites allow you to pay with a card, so while using your own personal card isn't too smart, you can very easily buy things with a prepaid visa or something along those lines. Saves a lot of time not having to hassle with e-mail communication or other things like Western Union transfers.

[JaegerMonster]

[QUOTE=Shovelpass;37946612]mpresearchsupply.com is a good research chems site, though some have claimed their aromasin is bunk. Their letro and arimedex is g2g though.

alldaychemist.com has legit aromasin (just make sure you buy the generic kind and not the super expensive one) but they are based out of India so the order will take some time to reach you.

Both sites allow you to pay with a card, so while using your own personal card isn't too smart, you can very easily buy things with a prepaid visa or something along those lines. Saves a lot of time not having to hassle with e-mail communication or other things like Western Union transfers.[/QUOTE]

Could've sworn I heard the Indian generic Aromasin was bunk.

Mightve changed though

[Seith]

How much is training relevant when on a cycle? Let's say I were to sit my ass and eat a surplus, would it matter whether I train or not and if so, is it a significant difference?