• Confusion surrounds Macron’s compulsory military service
    34 replies, posted
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/14/france-emmanuel-macron-compulsory-military-service-young-people[/url] [QUOTE] French president insists all young people will serve after minister suggested scheme might be voluntary The French government is grappling with how to honour Emmanuel Macron’s controversial election promise to reintroduce compulsory military service for young people.[/QUOTE] A person can understand both the merits of having and not having national service. Like Israel and Sweden [its planning to have it back if it passes] having it is a necessity by being close to enemy actors. Not having it can also be a merit, so you don't spend taxes on an inflated military but also it leaves younger people to give to other sectors of a country. I myself like the idea of mandatory limited military skills taught in further education but I am not sure that is feasible. Maybe Macron is on the right course here, maybe not.
Uh what We used to have compulsory service and it was so pointless they retracted it in favor of a single day of education and frankly that's enough as far as I'm concerned. Even dumber that he wants to privatize it at least partially, that's not a good idea.
It can be a good thing too though especially if you set it up so those doing it aren't being deployed unless they want to be and are actively gaining qualifications for use outside of the armed forces. Though I highly doubt that is the approach that Macron would take.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53132944]We used to have compulsory service[/QUOTE] Who is "we"?
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;53133033]It can be a good thing too though especially if you set it up so those doing it aren't being deployed unless they want to be and are actively gaining qualifications for use outside of the armed forces. Though I highly doubt that is the approach that Macron would take.[/QUOTE] I think it's his train of thought. 3 out of 11 presidential candidates argued the same thing. I need to find a way to make money out of helping people dodge service whenever they reintroduce it
OP, just wanted to point out that it has come back in Sweden (good thing IMHO). They start this year I think, 3000 boys and 3000 girls.
[QUOTE=Shendow;53133268]French people I'm guessing. We used to have it up until the Chirac presidency I believe, which was around 1996 Today, we just have a compulsory "citizenship" day where they tell you about stuff like first aid, politics, the military etc. I only remember it because they gave out free lunch :v:[/QUOTE] I remember their pizza was really delicious. We also got to handle weapons, and I had the pleasure of having one pointed at me by an idiot.
[QUOTE=Nabile13;53133325]I remember their pizza was really delicious. We also got to handle weapons, and I had the pleasure of having one pointed at me by an idiot.[/QUOTE] I've never seen a biggest pile of croissants since that day. But damn I wouldn't want compulsory military service. Maybe like a week to learn some important first aid stuff, but otherwise I don't see the point.
Being a conscript fucking sucks, men spent 2 years behind their female counterparts. Nobody wants it when it comes, as much as you can bullshit about serving the nation.
As far as i know in large population countries conscription isn't really needed unless a mobilization is called. Usually there is enough of volunteers to join in the armed forces to keep up the defensive (or offensive) capabilities. I wonder if there has been a dangerous drop on the enlistment rates or something to justify this? I can't say on anyone's behalf but i enjoyed my time as conscript not everyone agrees, but hey that is a right i swore an oath to protect.
[QUOTE=ViralHatred;53133033]It can be a good thing too though especially if you set it up so those doing it aren't being deployed unless they want to be and are actively gaining qualifications for use outside of the armed forces. Though I highly doubt that is the approach that Macron would take.[/QUOTE] Macron wants to find a way of doing compulsory service that does not involve active duty but rather a learning experience through which they learn the basics of military service and are given the opportunity to transition to a contract if they want to. But he also wants to privatize parts of it to save money. Keep in mind that right now if you want to join the army, the government pays you for the trip to the nearest base that performs entry exams. This government expense is a very important aspect of enlisting seeing as a lot of people who wish to join the army aren't in a very good financial state to begin with. I find it unlikely that the government could keep up the same generosity with an exponentially higher amount of people having to travel to the nearest base which can actually take in people. Oh also most people aren't cut out for military service to begin with and I think it's asinine to try to fit everyone in the same mold. It's not something everyone should do simply because not everyone is up for it. Some people just want to chill and not have to worry about tight command structures and from experience going into those military exams even people who want to join the army don't necessarily understand the basics of its hierarchy.
We have compulsory service in Russia. Either you dodge it for ten years and lose the ability to be employed in the public sector while running the risk of being fined, or you do serve and essentially lose a year in the process, not to mention the psychological damage service in the glorious Russian army may cause in the long run. It's a lose-lose situation from an economic standpoint.
There are benefits of compulsory military service but it depends on what they're having conscripts do and how "compulsory" it is. Russian, and Israeli conscripts are pretty miserable people. But a lot of Finns and Norwegians absolutely love their conscription. According to the OP this scheme doesn't sound bad, and when countries don't have enough budget to use everyone they tend to just not conscript everyone available IIRC (e.g. in norway.)
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;53133868]There are benefits of compulsory military service but it depends on what they're having conscripts do and how "compulsory" it is. Russian, and Israeli conscripts are pretty miserable people. But a lot of Finns and Norwegians absolutely love their conscription. According to the OP this scheme doesn't sound bad, and when countries don't have enough budget to use everyone they tend to just not conscript everyone available IIRC (e.g. in norway.)[/QUOTE] Kind of not a surprise when Russia and Israel are both involved in active conflicts that conscripts may participate in, while Norway and Finland are not.
[QUOTE=Nabile13;53133325]I remember their pizza was really delicious. We also got to handle weapons, and I had the pleasure of having one pointed at me by an idiot.[/QUOTE] Mine was at the local gendarmerie, didn't do anything special other than stay in a room for the whole day while looking at army and police ads and doing basic grammar tests. At least there was first aid though. And good food. Seems to be the two constants of JAPD.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;53134038]Kind of not a surprise when Russia and Israel are both involved in active conflicts that conscripts may participate in, while Norway and Finland are not.[/QUOTE] That's not a very good gauge, South Korea has DPRK but tough conscription, we have Malaysia but zero conflicts for over 50 years but its a waste of time.
Unless the French armed forces are facing a serious manpower shortage, I don't see the need. I understand recent security operations in response to terror attacks have stretched them thin, though. If y'all are serious about it, I wish you the best of luck. Conscription systems are difficult to get right, and getting them wrong results in dysfunctional mess of an organization. Just look at the US Army through the 1950s-'70s.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;53133473]Being a conscript fucking sucks, men spent 2 years behind their female counterparts.[/QUOTE] If I'm not misreading, that sounds like more an issue with sexism in Singaporean service. It's not really "compulsory" if only 50% of people are doing it.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;53135558]If I'm not misreading, that sounds like more an issue with sexism in Singaporean service. It's not really "compulsory" if only 50% of people are doing it.[/QUOTE] On that note, I still remember this bit of hilarity from when journos did a "man on the street" bit to ask people about it :v: [video=youtube_share;XDto2JLbzoA]http://youtu.be/XDto2JLbzoA[/video]
[QUOTE=snookypookums;53135561]On that note, I still remember this bit of hilarity from when journos did a "man on the street" bit to ask people about it :v: [video=youtube_share;XDto2JLbzoA]http://youtu.be/XDto2JLbzoA[/video][/QUOTE] The hypocrisy is disgusting.
Yeah the sexism in the issue of military enrollment is fucking weird. Basically a crosswalk of men seeing women as being too weak to be in the military, and women seeing men as being the disposable sex. Two opposing sides focusing contempt in opposite directions to meet the same ends :s:
I have mixed feelings about conscription. On one hand, mandatory military service teaches young people discipline and skills I feel are lacking from society at large. On the other, depending on the military culture, they can be turned into drones who are disinclined to question authority or think critically about a great many things. Furthermore, militaries are culturally jingoistic. A good soldier is one who does what his or her country requires of him or her, right or wrong. A country needs patriots, not nationalists.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;53135775]Yeah the sexism in the issue of military enrollment is fucking weird. Basically a crosswalk of men seeing women as being too weak to be in the military, and women seeing men as being the disposable sex. Two opposing sides focusing contempt in opposite directions to meet the same ends :s:[/QUOTE] i remember the outrage from both when women had to register for selective service here (essentially getting on the list for the draft if one ever was needed) its not like they'd even start with the women if we did have a draft.
[QUOTE=Sableye;53136247]i remember the outrage from both when women had to register for selective service here (essentially getting on the list for the draft if one ever was needed) its not like they'd even start with the women if we did have a draft.[/QUOTE] Or like we'd ever have a draft for anything short of World War 3, for that matter. The draft was exceptionally unpopular by the time we got rid of it.
[QUOTE=archangel125;53135794]I have mixed feelings about conscription. On one hand, mandatory military service teaches young people discipline and skills I feel are lacking from society at large. On the other, depending on the military culture, they can be turned into drones who are disinclined to question authority or think critically about a great many things. Furthermore, militaries are culturally jingoistic. A good soldier is one who does what his or her country requires of him or her, right or wrong. A country needs patriots, not nationalists.[/QUOTE] Discipline my ass. You always have a buddy with you, you never really do things alone After the army, I still have people with no clue how to wash clothes. Discipline cannot be forced, you have to practice it.
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;53136337]Discipline my ass. You always have a buddy with you, you never really do things alone After the army, I still have people with no clue how to wash clothes. Discipline cannot be forced, you have to practice it.[/QUOTE] One could say the military can help an individual build disciplined habits at least, right?
[QUOTE=archangel125;53136378]One could say the military can help an individual build disciplined habits at least, right?[/QUOTE] If the IDF is any indication, for every person who benefits from the army you would have many others who just wasted a whole lot of time in an outdated system that bites more than it can chew. But that's the IDF, maybe it's better in Finland. I think better education (something that is usually not taken nearly as seriously as it should) is far more valuable than any time you could spend in the military to instill good habits.
[QUOTE=archangel125;53136378]One could say the military can help an individual build disciplined habits at least, right?[/QUOTE] Some of them, sure - but it depends on the country. For example, [URL="https://www.timesofisrael.com/when-battle-scarred-israelis-go-wild-in-india-this-vet-is-there-to-help/"]India is a haven for a lot of PTSD-addled Israeli soldiers who get really fucked up during their military time and then just run to Goa to get fucked up on drugs and be a nuisance to the locals.[/URL] :frown: While the intentions are good, until militaries build a solid framework for looking after their soldier's mental health, personally I feel like it'd do a lot more harm than good to forcibly subject already unwilling participants to this, then send back people with potential PTSD from their time in service, back into the general populace. I'd much rather have a plan that tries to enforce physical fitness and ability, with the ability to have service regulations for baseline skills needed for an immediate conscription if needed - trade certification for something that could be of use - electricians, plumbing, logistics (driving a truck or something), basic firearms training - that could be done every few years for all permanent residents and citizens. In my mind, this keeps the soldiers primed for their main job while also keeping a certain level of prepared-ness for the general populace.
[QUOTE=archangel125;53136378]One could say the military can help an individual build disciplined habits at least, right?[/QUOTE] It can, but ultimately its up to individuals. The military can only do so much, and they aren't there to spoon feed you. Having a conscript army means you be on lower priority. Theres a saying we have, 'rush to wait, wait to rush' Its horribly managed for conscripts, and even more so for reservists. You could spend an entire day sitting and be told there's no exercise and go home.
[QUOTE=Shendow;53133468]I didn't get to handle weapons, but I did see Renault FTs and other tanks, which made my day. I was in Drancy and nobody including me seemed to care about the whole citizenship thing, but learning first aid was the only thing I cared about. All these plastic people I've accidentally killed by messing up..[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=NapyDaWise;53133452]I've never seen a biggest pile of croissants since that day. But damn I wouldn't want compulsory military service. Maybe like a week to learn some important first aid stuff, but otherwise I don't see the point.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Nabile13;53133325]I remember their pizza was really delicious. We also got to handle weapons, and I had the pleasure of having one pointed at me by an idiot.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ripsipiirakk;53133515]As far as i know in large population countries conscription isn't really needed unless a mobilization is called. Usually there is enough of volunteers to join in the armed forces to keep up the defensive (or offensive) capabilities. I wonder if there has been a dangerous drop on the enlistment rates or something to justify this? I can't say on anyone's behalf but i enjoyed my time as conscript not everyone agrees, but hey that is a right i swore an oath to protect.[/QUOTE] Is French folks having blue girls as avatars a thing or
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