• European dismay at UK 'chaos and confusion' over Brexit
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[URL="https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/1123/922191-brexit-embassies/"]https://www.rte.ie/news/brexit/2017/1123/922191-brexit-embassies/[/URL] [QUOTE]An internal report by the (Irish) Department of Foreign Affairs has painted a negative and deeply unflattering picture of Britain's performance in the Brexit negotiations. It is based on an extensive round of meetings between senior Irish diplomatic figures and government officials in European capitals. The confidential report, seen by RTÉ News, quotes senior EU figures as being alarmed by "chaos in the Conservative government", with British ministers and civil servants unable to agree a coherent policy on Brexit. The report says there are significant concerns across European capitals that it will be difficult to break the deadlock in the negotiations ahead of the December summit. ... [B]The document is a compilation of political reports from Irish embassies across Europe between 6 and 10 November.[/B] This was some three weeks after the EU summit in Brussels during which EU leaders told Theresa May that Britain needed to do more on the three key issues. The opinions voiced by EU ministers and senior officials to Irish diplomats reflect widespread pessimism and even scorn about the British government's negotiating position. [B]Some EU figures talk of "chaos" in the British government.[/B] The report reveals that at a meeting between David Davis, Britain's Brexit Secretary, and the French ministers for Defence and European Affairs, Mr Davis barely mentioned Brexit. This was much to the surprise of his hosts, who had regarded the meeting as an opportunity for Mr Davis to unblock French resistance to negotiations graduating to the next phase. During a meeting in Luxembourg, the British judge in the European Court of Justice bemoaned "the quality of politicians in Westminster". ... A minister in the Czech government told his Irish interlocutors that Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was "unimpressive", but that at least he had "avoided any gaffes" during a visit in September. The Czech Deputy Minister for Foreign Affairs Jakub Dürr told officials "he felt sorry for British Ambassadors around the EU trying to communicate a coherent message when there is political confusion at home". ... [B][I]Some senior figures warned about Britain crashing out of the EU without agreement.[/I][/B][/QUOTE] More detail: [QUOTE]According to the report, the Greek Ambassador for EU Affairs at the Foreign Ministry in Athens Ioannis Metaxas said he was "pre-occupied with Brexit, which would cause 'big problems' for Ireland, Belgium, the Netherlands and Denmark". He was "keen to know what the solutions would be in terms of managing both migratory and customs flows between the north and south". ... The paper reported that Mr Veyssiere had "picked up" remarks by the former head of the World Trade Organisation Pascal Lamy that Northern Ireland could "become like Hong Kong, a special autonomous zone within the EU". ... Equally damning were the reported comments of the UK's member of the European Court of Justice in Luxembourg, Judge Ian Forrester. The report quotes the judge as saying there were "issues around the quality of politicians in Westminster at present". He described British society as "very divided" and it was "difficult to see any solutions to this in the current political context". The judge said there had been "a fair amount of contact" between him and the British government on the issue. [B]However, he said "only one person out of all those who had been in contact had any real grasp of the complexities involved [in leaving the EU]."[/B] Judge Forrester was then quoted as saying "this process is going to go on for some time and ... his hope was that it would gradually dawn on people what leaving actually entailed, that there might be a slow realisation that this was just a great mistake [B]and the mood might swing back to remaining"[/B].[/QUOTE] Welp. This is not going to be fun for us.
Not just the Europeans, half of the UK population feels the same. Anyone with half a brain can see how absolutely shambolic this has been so far...
[quote]A minister in the Czech government told his Irish interlocutors that Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was "unimpressive", but that at least he had "avoided any gaffes" during a visit in September.[/quote] How embarassing.
This only makes the "coalition of chaos" line from the Tory campaign even funnier. I mean, it would be funny if it wasn't so devastating for everyone involved.
[QUOTE=Killuah;52916659][QUOTE]A minister in the Czech government told his Irish interlocutors that Britain's Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson was "unimpressive", but that at least he had "avoided any gaffes" during a visit in September[/QUOTE] How embarassing.[/QUOTE] It's pretty bad when "at least he didn't fuck up when he visited us" is probably the nicest thing you could say about our Foreign Secretary.
Doesn't really need its own thread: the UK government is mad at the European Commission for declaring that UK cities can't bid to be EU Capital of Culture after leaving the EU [media]https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/933685441500467201[/media]
I bet this chaos puts a smile on Putin's face.
[QUOTE=Bob The Knob;52916702]Doesn't really need its own thread: the UK government is mad at the European Commission for declaring that UK cities can't bid to be EU Capital of Culture after leaving the EU [media]https://twitter.com/adamfleming/status/933685441500467201[/media][/QUOTE] um, like I know I'm no expert or anything, but don't you need to be in the EU to be a EU capital of culture? isn't that, you know, [B]blatantly obvious[/B]. Literally fuck this government
But how could it possibly be bad when it's the sacred [B][I]~will of the people~[/I][/B]
[QUOTE=Instant Mix;52916759]um, like I know I'm no expert or anything, but don't you need to be in the EU to be a EU capital of culture? isn't that, you know, [B]blatantly obvious[/B]. Literally fuck this government[/QUOTE] So what about Istanbul 2010?
Brexit was basically some people saying "things aren't working" and pointing the finger towards the EU because they didn't want to point the finger at their own government. Even if Brexit had been done "correctly" and handled well, I can't see it bringing an improvement to the country which would be significant enough to be felt by the public (or at least the working-class and lower)
[QUOTE=CatFodder;52916765]But how could it possibly be bad when it's the sacred [B][I]~will of the people~[/I][/B][/QUOTE] Actually, I do consider the will of the people, (AKA: democracy) to be pretty sacred.
[QUOTE=David29;52916848]Actually, I do consider the will of the people, (AKA: democracy) to be pretty sacred.[/QUOTE] Except referendums are not how our democracy functions, the point of a representative democracy is to elect representatives who then collate INFORMED sources to affect policy decisions they feel represent their electors. You don't trust Bob down the pub who works in a warehouse to write policy involving the level of pollutants acceptable in drinking water, instead your representative works with the actual experts in that field to determine what is acceptable. The ~will of the people~ is horseshit where complex issues are concerned because interestingly, most people don't know jack shit about the complex issues. Such as the economic, political and social benefits of the EU vs not being in it. A campaign that literally had one of its movers and shakers claim that "The British People are tired of experts!" is explicitly anti-democratic and anti-factual, sensible policy.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;52916887]Except referendums are not how our democracy functions, the point of a representative democracy is to elect representatives who then collate INFORMED sources to affect policy decisions they feel represent their electors. You don't trust Bob down the pub who works in a warehouse to write policy involving the level of pollutants acceptable in drinking water, instead your representative works with the actual experts in that field to determine what is acceptable. The ~will of the people~ is horseshit where complex issues are concerned because interestingly, most people don't know jack shit about the complex issues. Such as the economic, political and social benefits of the EU vs not being in it. A campaign that literally had one of its movers and shakers claim that "The British People are tired of experts!" is explicitly anti-democratic and anti-factual, sensible policy.[/QUOTE] To add to that, the people don't even know what they want. The margin was so close that, frankly, I'm surprised it didn't get called a tie due to margin-of-error. The referendum was by no means decisive and should not have been called a victory for Brexit.
If you go by the ~~will of the people~~ we'd be hanging shoplifters from streetlights and sending soldiers to Australia to reclaim our empire. The public are stupid and make bad decisions which is why 99% of political decisions are made by elected representatives.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;52916887]Except referendums are not how our democracy functions, the point of a representative democracy is to elect representatives who then collate INFORMED sources to affect policy decisions they feel represent their electors. You don't trust Bob down the pub who works in a warehouse to write policy involving the level of pollutants acceptable in drinking water, instead your representative works with the actual experts in that field to determine what is acceptable. The ~will of the people~ is horseshit where complex issues are concerned because interestingly, most people don't know jack shit about the complex issues. Such as the economic, political and social benefits of the EU vs not being in it. A campaign that literally had one of its movers and shakers claim that "The British People are tired of experts!" is explicitly anti-democratic and anti-factual, sensible policy.[/QUOTE] So what was your stance on the Scottish Independence Referendum? [QUOTE=RainbowStalin;52916916]If you go by the ~~will of the people~~ we'd be hanging shoplifters from streetlights and sending soldiers to Australia to reclaim our empire. The public are stupid and make bad decisions which is why 99% of political decisions are made by elected representatives.[/QUOTE] Would we? According to what poll/referendum?
A poorly thought out decision with basically no plan is going completely fucking tits-up. Who'd have thought?
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52916948]Nobody expects Bob to write legislature. Bob makes a demand from his representatives, by voting or referenda, which the representatives must accomplish by writing the policies. The elected representatives lied to the people, they didnt make plans beforehand, and made a referendum. Now they must abide by the result. This is to protect the sacredness, the virtue of democracy, as that is the power of the average citizen, you and me. If they ignore the Brexit referendum, they will be able to ignore future referendums, say a referendum on human rights, on surveillance, on net neutrality. Representatives are trusted to lead the country, yes, but by *representing* the will of the people. If they go against it, this will hurt the relationship between the voter and the rep, and will encourage representatives to be more irresponsible.[/QUOTE] Sometimes the will of the people is too muddled to discern, as is the case here, and in situations like that where a coin flip is as accurate as the polls for determining what the public wants, elected officials need to just do what should be done. They're gonna piss off half the country no matter which option they go with, best to go with the option [I]that doesn't wreck the place.[/I]
[QUOTE=David29;52916785]So what about Istanbul 2010?[/QUOTE] Both Iceland and Norway have had Capitals of Culture. Neither are members of the European Union. P.S I often wonder if we would have the same reaction of "the public are dumb!!!!" if we had 52% Remain. A question we'll never know the answer to. But I think it's clear that Brexit is becoming a farce that not even the biggest critics could have anticipated.
God all I want for Christmas is Scottish independence and a warm welcome back to the EU the Union is dead lmaoo
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52916948]Nobody expects Bob to write legislature. Bob makes a demand from his representatives, by voting or referenda, which the representatives must accomplish by writing the policies. The elected representatives lied to the people, they didnt make plans beforehand, and made a referendum. Now they must abide by the result. This is to protect the sacredness, the virtue of democracy, as that is the power of the average citizen, you and me. If they ignore the Brexit referendum, they will be able to ignore future referendums, say a referendum on human rights, on surveillance, on net neutrality. Representatives are trusted to lead the country, yes, but by *representing* the will of the people. If they go against it, this will hurt the relationship between the voter and the rep, and will encourage representatives to be more irresponsible.[/QUOTE] The referendum was non-binding. The government could have chosen to ignore it and it would've 100% a-okay.
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52916971]The referendum was non-binding. The government could have chosen to ignore it and it would've 100% a-okay.[/QUOTE] It really would not. That's like saying that it would be 100% a-ok for the Queen to march into Parliament right now and dissolve it. Yeah, legally she can do that - but it's a fucking terrible idea.
[QUOTE=David29;52916976]It really would not. That's like saying that it would be 100% a-ok for the Queen to march into Parliament right now and dissolve it. Yeah, legally she can do that - but it's a fucking terrible idea.[/QUOTE] Idunno. Maybe it's because I'm an outside observer, maybe it's because I wouldn't mind if someone came over here and dissolved our senate, our house, our executive branch, and started over again with 537 totally new candidates for the freshly vacated seats. But I think it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be if the Queen puts her foot down like that. [QUOTE=Trebgarta;52916974]Elected officials shouldn't have called a referendum and fuck up the remain campaign. Guess you'll have to elect better elected officials next time. They apparently aren't much more competent than the average Bob. Besides, if anybody wanted a 51-49 to not happen, they would've set the rules as such. UK won't be wrecked, it'll be painful but just close your eyes, it'll be over soon.[/QUOTE] Anyone with half a brain would realize that 51/49 is not a valid 'Yes, we want this to happen' result. 51/49 is basically the collective of Britian going '....idunnolol' and shrugging. The referendum is nonbinding, nonvalid, and honestly, it shouldn't be honored at all. Continuing with Brexit when even the public can't decide if they do or don't want it is the worst political idea this side of electing Donald Trump.
"It shouldn't be honored" I'm not a massive fan of Brexit. It's clear that the majority of Facepunch is opposed to it. But that doesn't mean a decision shouldn't be honoured. Imagine if Remain had got 52% (it's 52/48, by the way) - would people have the right to start demanding we ignore the decision because the gap wasn't big enough? Have two extra referendums for the fun of it? Genuinely please explain to me what would've happened if that had been the outcome.
go on ireland, save britain from doing something stupid to itself, even if its just for Northern Ireland.
[QUOTE=TestECull;52916998]Idunno. Maybe it's because I'm an outside observer, maybe it's because I wouldn't mind if someone came over here and dissolved our senate, our house, our executive branch, and started over again with 537 totally new candidates for the freshly vacated seats. But I think it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad as you're making it out to be if the Queen puts her foot down like that.[/QUOTE] Well I can assure you, it would be. [QUOTE=TestECull;52916998]Anyone with half a brain would realize that 51/49 is not a valid 'Yes, we want this to happen' result. 51/49 is basically the collective of Britian going '....idunnolol' and shrugging. The referendum is nonbinding, nonvalid, and honestly, it shouldn't be honored at all. Continuing with Brexit when even the public can't decide if they do or don't want it is the worst political idea this side of electing Donald Trump.[/QUOTE] So you are suggesting that the government denies the UK public it's collective right to self-determination?
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52917000]That is not how the relationship between the voters and their representatives work. There are expectations. It is non-binding for legal and bureaucratic reasons. [editline]23rd November 2017[/editline] Women gained the right to vote in Liechtenstein by 51-49 in 1984. By 119 votes.[/QUOTE] there are decisions that should not be made without a clear majority. granting rights to people who don't have them is one time where its fine to use a simple majority but large decisions such as brexit are typically treated as something that needs a majority. In the US for example, treaties have to be ratified by more than a simple majority, the constitution had to be ratified by more than a simple majority, amendments as well, its not good enough on issues as large as this to say "well one half says yey" its either a large clear majority or nothing because frankly its better for a government to do nothing than to commit to something half the people do not want.
[QUOTE=Sableye;52917027]there are decisions that should not be made without a clear majority. granting rights to people who don't have them is one time where its fine to use a simple majority but large decisions such as brexit are typically treated as something that needs a majority. In the US for example, treaties have to be ratified by more than a simple majority, the constitution had to be ratified by more than a simple majority, amendments as well, its not good enough on issues as large as this to say "well one half says yey" its either a large clear majority or nothing because frankly its better for a government to do nothing than to commit to something half the people do not want.[/QUOTE] Define "clear majority".
[QUOTE=Owlz?;52917011]"It shouldn't be honored" I'm not a massive fan of Brexit. It's clear that the majority of Facepunch is opposed to it. But that doesn't mean a decision shouldn't be honoured. Imagine if Remain had got 52% (it's 52/48, by the way) - would people have the right to start demanding we ignore the decision because the gap wasn't big enough? Have two extra referendums for the fun of it? Genuinely please explain to me what would've happened if that had been the outcome.[/QUOTE] The referendum shouldn't have happened anyway. Not on the conditions that it was held in. It's the reason why absolutely nothing about it has been decided while the clock is ticking. If Remain had won there wouldn't have been a scenario where we had limited time to solve one of the most convoluted diplomatic problems ever devised anyway, but still, the referendum should clearly not have been simplified to just "in" or "out" because this is a very complex problem it is attempting to solve.
Also, the hate culture against people who voted Leave is disgraceful. While I acknowledge there have been horrific things said by Leave voters such as "We voted Leave, everyone foreign should get out" and then just petty stuff like the term 'Remoaner' but does that mean you retaliate with equally poisonous attitudes? Not all Leave voters are racist or xenophobic, just like how not all Remain voters are university students that read one article about the EU and think they're academics on the subject. The entire subject of Brexit and the referendum has sadly been turned into a bitter and toxic slanging match from both sides, which fucking sucks.
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