Israel won’t demolish homes of families who turn in terrorists - Polidicks

[URL="http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-wont-demolish-homes-of-families-who-turn-in-terrorists/"]http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-wont-demolish-homes-of-families-who-turn-in-terrorists/[/URL] [QUOTE]In a marked departure from policy to date, Israel has decided that Palestinian terrorists’ families who turn the killers in to security forces will be able to save their homes from demolition, Channel 2 news reported Tuesday. The government thus adopted the recommendation of new Attorney General Avichai Mandelblit who, in one of his first decisions in the position, said Israel should spare the house of Shadi Ahmad Matua of Hebron, because the gunman’s father had handed him in to the Shin Bet security agency. Matua, aged 28 and married with two children, is accused of killing Rabbi Isaac Litman, 40, and his 18-year-old son Netanel in a shooting attack in November. His father and brother turned him in shortly afterwards, fearing their home would be demolished in retribution. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On Tuesday morning IDF engineers accompanied by Border Police officers destroyed the homes of Raed Masalmeh, 36, and Mohammed Abdel Basset al-Kharoub, 24, both in villages near Hebron, the military said in a statement. The two were responsible for the deaths of five people in two attacks carried out within hours of each other on November 19. Ruling recently on an appeal against the demolition by the Masalmeh and al-Kharoub families, the Supreme Court said that “the ability to prevent future bloodshed requires us to harden our hearts and spare potential victims, more so than pitying the house occupants.” [/QUOTE]

At this point the Palestinians will never have their land back, we may as well hand it all over to the Israeli government.

Won't demolish it for a few more weeks, I'm sure.

Not being dicks for no reason isn't something that should be getting applauded. The fact that the EU had to pressure them over this is shameful. [QUOTE]saying it is not a punishment but a deterrent against attacks.[/QUOTE] :suicide: Right...

What if the Palestinians do not know of any terrorists,so they can not turn any in? Do they get shafted anyways?

[QUOTE=Idzo;49806836]What if the Palestinians do not know of any terrorists,so they can not turn any in? Do they get shafted anyways?[/QUOTE] Read the article. [QUOTE]Palestinian terrorists’ [b]families[/b] who turn the killers in to security forces will be able to save their homes from demolition,[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Svinnik;49806899]Read the article.[/QUOTE] Sorry,managed to somehow ignore the 'families' part.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49806812]Not being dicks for no reason isn't something that should be getting applauded. The fact that the EU had to pressure them over this is shameful. :suicide: Right...[/QUOTE] The Palestinian Authority pays Palestinian families who have a family member commit a terror attack. [URL="http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Documents-reveal-Palestinian-Authority-paying-convicted-Hamas-terrorists-420068"]http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Documents-reveal-Palestinian-Authority-paying-convicted-Hamas-terrorists-420068[/URL] destroying the houses is intended to make it unprofitable for families to have a member that commits terror attacks

Reveal where jews are hiding and you won't be sent to a concentration camp... For now. I wouldn't like to make this comparison but it's somehow too apt.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;49806934]Reveal where jews are hiding and you won't be sent to a concentration camp... For now. I wouldn't like to make this comparison but it's somehow too apt.[/QUOTE] Because Jews during the holocaust committed random terror attacks against German civilians and were paid for it by a Jewish organization? This isn't against all Palestinians, it's against the families of terrorists.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;49806954]it's against the families of terrorists.[/QUOTE] Holding people responsible for crimes that they didn't commit is disgusting behavior. Collective punishment is bad, doesn't matter if we're looking at entire racial groups (Nazi Germany) or families (North Korea).

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49806966]Holding people responsible for crimes that they didn't commit is disgusting behavior. Collective punishment is bad, doesn't matter if we're looking at entire racial groups (Nazi Germany) or families (North Korea).[/QUOTE] So people who profit from a crime should not be held accountable?

[QUOTE=Svinnik;49806954]Because Jews during the holocaust committed random terror attacks against German civilians and were paid for it by a Jewish organization? This isn't against all Palestinians, it's against the families of terrorists.[/QUOTE] Not to say it's a proper response at all, but to claim the attacks are random/nonsensical is bewilderingly silly. It's not like Israel is a benevolent neighbour, a lot of the extremism is a direct result of incredibly shitty things Israel is doing.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;49806934]Reveal where jews are hiding and you won't be sent to a concentration camp... For now. I wouldn't like to make this comparison but it's somehow too apt.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Rangergxi;49806966]Holding people responsible for crimes that they didn't commit is disgusting behavior. Collective punishment is bad, doesn't matter if we're looking at entire racial groups (Nazi Germany) or families (North Korea).[/QUOTE] This is why you people will never understand whats it's like to live here. I'm so sick of it. You all sit back and compare us to Nazi Germany while these families get the fame, glory, cash and become national heros after a member of the family was "blessed" to kill a random Israeli. After all this shit, the family becomes proud [B]and creates even more incitement[/B] that results in Palestinians to get up and hurt more innocent people. I don't know about you, but the only way to stop this incitement is to demolish their houses if they don't cooperate. Only then other Palestinians will see this as a danger to their families. And don't even start saying how barbaric is it. This is the reality we have to live in. [QUOTE=Elspin;49807105]Not to say it's a proper response at all, but to claim the attacks are random/nonsensical is bewilderingly silly. It's not like Israel is a benevolent neighbour, a lot of the extremism is a direct result of incredibly shitty things Israel is doing.[/QUOTE] Not by the recent events it isn't. The extreme incitement happening out there is insane just because the PA started spreading rumors about Al-Aqsa under Israeli control.

[QUOTE=RzDat;49807158] I don't know about you, but the only way to stop this incitement is to demolish their houses if they don't cooperate. Only then other Palestinians will see this as a danger to their families.[/QUOTE] "We should throw the family of criminals into prison, they benefitted from his enterprises" is the logic your applying. Its pretty fucked up. Drug dealers, white collar criminals... its messed up no matter how you try to frame it. [QUOTE=RzDat;49807158]Only then other Palestinians will see this as a danger to their families.[/QUOTE] Punishing people for things they didn't do is only going to create radicals. A person that's willing to be a Martyr may very well be fine with their family members becoming martyrs as well. Also, you now have even more people pissed off at Israel, people that probably did absolutely nothing wrong. Its also just disgusting. Its not me being anti-semitic or whatever. Trump said something similar and I found it awful as well.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49807202]"We should throw the family of criminals into prison, they benefitted from his enterprises" is the logic your applying. Its pretty fucked up. Drug dealers, white collar criminals... its messed up no matter how you try to frame it. Punishing people for things they didn't do is only going to create radicals. A person that's willing to be a Martyr may very well be fine with their family members becoming martyrs as well. Also, you now have even more people pissed off at Israel, people that probably did absolutely nothing wrong. Its also just disgusting. Its not me being anti-semitic or whatever. Trump said something similar and I found it awful as well.[/QUOTE] So tell us what to do then. We aren't throwing the families into prison and if the family disapproves of the action of a family member, they can call the IDF and get him arrested. The family gets to keep the house and the IDF gets to capture another terrorist. By not reporting a terrorist, the family is approving of his actions.

[QUOTE=RzDat;49807158] I don't know about you, but the only way to stop this incitement is to demolish their houses if they don't cooperate. Only then other Palestinians will see this as a danger to their families. And don't even start saying how barbaric is it. This is the reality we have to live in.[/QUOTE] This is an excellent idea to continue the war. It's no wonder the Palestinians would despise Israel.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;49806934]Reveal where jews are hiding and you won't be sent to a concentration camp... For now. I wouldn't like to make this comparison but it's somehow too apt.[/QUOTE] This is actually disgusting. Jews being rounded up and murdered by a racist regime are equivilent to people who purposefully kill as many innocent people as possible.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;49807202]"We should throw the family of criminals into prison, they benefitted from his enterprises" is the logic your applying. Its pretty fucked up. Drug dealers, white collar criminals... its messed up no matter how you try to frame it.[/quote] These are not criminals, they are terrorists. Criminals do crimes for money, power and respect. Terrorists do these things because of their ideology / whatever they believe. [quote]Punishing people for things they didn't do is only going to create radicals. A person that's willing to be a Martyr may very well be fine with their family members becoming martyrs as well. Also, you now have even more people pissed off at Israel, people that probably did absolutely nothing wrong. Its also just disgusting. Its not me being anti-semitic or whatever. Trump said something similar and I found it awful as well.[/QUOTE] This is where you're wrong. Radicalization will be decreased as the punishment is heavier. If you give them a feeling of victory, they will continue doing so and even harder. Just like I said: You'll never know how it feels. [QUOTE=MuTAnT;49807276]This is an excellent idea to continue the war. It's no wonder the Palestinians would despise Israel.[/QUOTE] Please enlighten me with a good idea to prevent a war.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;49807239]...they can call the IDF and get him arrested. The family gets to keep the house and the IDF gets to capture another terrorist. By not reporting a terrorist, the family is approving of his actions.[/QUOTE] Because the family always knows and would be fine with Israeli soldiers (famous for brutalizing Palestinians) into their home? How are we supposed to know if they enabled such behavior? Hamas and similar organizations rewarding them afterwards doesn't mean anything. [QUOTE=RzDat;49807298] Just like I said: You'll never know how it feels.[/QUOTE] Dismissing me with this is just as silly as me dismissing you as a Zionist that doesn't give a care about Palestinians. [QUOTE=RzDat;49807298]These are not criminals, they are terrorists. Criminals do crimes for money, power and respect. Terrorists do these things because of their ideology / whatever they believe.[/QUOTE] Punishing innocent families just makes Israel look worse and even justifies violent opposition against them.

[quote]Punishing innocent families just makes Israel look worse and even justifies violent opposition against them.[/quote] I said it before on my previous post and i'm gonna say it again: They are guilty if they don't cooperate. After all, they are the ones who accept the money for turning a member of their family into a shaid (See: [url]http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2302/palestinian-authority-terrorist-salaries[/url])

[QUOTE=RzDat;49807350]I said it before on my previous post and i'm gonna say it again: They are guilty if they don't cooperate. After all, they are the ones who accept the money for turning a member of their family into a shaid (See: [url]http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/2302/palestinian-authority-terrorist-salaries[/url])[/QUOTE] You say this as if it is always easy to tell what everyone in your family is up to or as if turning over a family member to a government you pretty justifiably distrust is easy. Do they have a trial to find out if the family could have or did know or support the actions, or do they just assume guilt and knock it down? It's a shitty situation but destroying homes doenst breed trust or build bridges, it just gives disenfranchised Palestinians more reasons to dislike Israel.

[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;49807554]You say this as if it is always easy to tell what everyone in your family is up to or as if turning over a family member to a government you pretty justifiably distrust is easy. Do they have a trial to find out if the family could have or did know or support the actions, or do they just assume guilt and knock it down? It's a shitty situation but destroying homes doenst breed trust or build bridges, it just gives disenfranchised Palestinians more reasons to dislike Israel.[/QUOTE] They have trials and Palestinian families can file appeals which are sometimes granted. The law that's being talked about in the OP is based off of a case where a Palestinian family filed an appeal.

[QUOTE=Svinnik;49807571]They have trials and Palestinian families can file appeals which are sometimes granted. The law that's being talked about in the OP is based off of a case where a Palestinian family filed an appeal.[/QUOTE] Is the burden of proof on the side of the prosecution to prove that the family were aware?

[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;49807642]Is the burden of proof on the side of the prosecution to prove that the family were aware?[/QUOTE] I'm not sure to be honest. It has been proven to deter terrorism though [URL="http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120506/study-israels-home-demolitions-policy-works-it-moral"]http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120506/study-israels-home-demolitions-policy-works-it-moral[/URL]

[QUOTE=Svinnik;49807659]I'm not sure to be honest. It has been proven to deter terrorism though [URL="http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120506/study-israels-home-demolitions-policy-works-it-moral"]http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120506/study-israels-home-demolitions-policy-works-it-moral[/URL][/QUOTE] One study found a link. Whilst that is good evidence, it's not prudent to call it proof. Either way it is group punishment.

Was reading the Wiki about the demolitions ... Dang they seem very serious about it. [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/IDF-D9-Zachi-Evenor-001.jpg/1280px-IDF-D9-Zachi-Evenor-001.jpg[/t]

[QUOTE=Swebonny;49807748]Was reading the Wiki about the demolitions since... Dang they seem very serious about it. [t]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/IDF-D9-Zachi-Evenor-001.jpg/1280px-IDF-D9-Zachi-Evenor-001.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] These actually won the Battle of Jenin for Israel in 2002 [QUOTE]Following several incidents where armed Palestinians barricaded themselves inside houses and killed soldiers attempting to breach the entries, the IDF developed "nohal sir lachatz" (נוהל סיר לחץ "pressure cooker procedure") in which D9s and other engineering vehicles were used to bring them out by razing the houses; most of them surrendered because of fear of being buried alive. During the Battle of Jenin 2002 armored D9 bulldozers cleared booby traps and improvised explosive devices, and eventually razed houses from which militants fired upon Israeli soldiers or contained possible IEDs and booby traps. A translated interview with one of the drivers was published by Gush Shalom.[4] After the deadly ambush in which 13 soldiers were killed the D9s razed the center of the camp and forced the remaining Palestinian fighters to surrender, thus finishing the battle with an Israeli victory.[5] In Rafah and near the Philadelphi Route the D9s razed thousands of buildings according to human rights reports; Israel claimed it is a security measure necessary to discover and destroy smuggling tunnels and destroy firing positions that threaten the forces in the area, while Palestinians claimed it was to create a "buffer zone" and punish Palestinians for IDF casualties. While Palestinians saw the D9 as a devastating weapon, and human rights groups criticized it for the massive damage it caused to Palestinian infrastructure, Israelis and military experts saw the D9 as a necessary tool for combatting insurgency and terrorism and a key factor in reducing IDF casualties.[6] During the early 2000s, the new D9R entered IDF service, equipped with a new generation armor designed by the IDF's MASHA (Hebrew: מש"א‎, lit. Restoration and Maintenance Center), Israel Aerospace Industries and Zoko Shiloovim (Caterpillar Inc. importers in Israel). Due to the increasing threat of shaped charge anti-tank rockets and anti-tank missile, the IDF introduced in 2005 a slat armor, installed in large numbers on the IDF D9R dozers in 2006. The slat armor proved to be effective and life-saving; its developers and installers won the IDF's Ground Command award.[/QUOTE]

To be honest it's hard not to draw ironic parallells of Israel with Nazi Germany at times. Demolishing a home (which, given you can have a lot of people in one house, is no small matter) because one of the occupants' relatives is a terrorist sounds a lot like [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sippenhaft"]sippenhaft[/URL]. Expecting families to inform on their relatives is also kinda similar to the culture of suspicion fostered in the Third Reich.

The whole situation is kind of fucked up. As a general person with no patriotic tendencies, the entire idea of Israel as a whole is very much on the fence, but of course I can sympathise with the people born and brought there. I can also sympathise with the Palestinian fighters that are very easily called terrorists (mainly because of their sometimes downright shameful fighting tactics(both sides eh?)). Fighting fire with fire doesn't work though, not in the case of humans and ideology, shooting teenagers with rocks in their hands, unarmed civilians and demolishing houses of families of potential militants and families that have had no part other than being shelled is an atrocity a developed country should know better to do. It's just not a good long term plan for anyone. But hey, all Israelis think they are the "good guys" and vice versa for the Palestinians.