• Israel Asks Egypt to Remove Tanks From Sinai
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[IMG]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2012/08/22/world/sinai/sinai-articleLarge.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]JERUSALEM — Israel is “troubled” by the entry of Egyptian tanks into the northern Sinai Peninsula without coordination with Israel, a violation of the terms of the 33-year-old peace treaty between the two countries, and has asked Egypt to withdraw them, an Israeli government official said Tuesday. The Israeli request was conveyed within the last few days, the official said, adding that it was likely that the Obama administration had made a similar approach to Cairo. The Israeli official was speaking on the condition of anonymity because of the fragility of Israel’s relations with Egypt, already strained by the recent upheavals there. The overthrow of President Hosni Mubarak last year stripped Israel of a trusted regional ally. The reported request from Israel elicited contradictory reactions from Egypt. A spokesman for the Egyptian president, Mohamed Morsi, denied receiving any complaints from Israel. Citing an unidentified military source, Al Ahram, the flagship state-run newspaper, dismissed the matter as a fabrication of the Israeli news media and said that the move had been fully coordinated with the Israeli military. The dispute over the tanks’ entry into Sinai earlier this month appeared to be part of a delicate balancing act as Egypt’s new leadership, which is interested in changing the terms of the military aspects of the treaty, tests Israel’s limits. For its part, Israel seeks to encourage Egypt’s efforts to restore order in the increasingly chaotic Sinai Peninsula but without posing a threat to its own security. With Egyptian forces in Sinai strictly limited by the military appendix of the peace treaty, the vast desert area has until now served as a demilitarized buffer zone. But Egypt has long chafed at the restrictions, contending that restoring security in Sinai, which is a joint Israeli-Egyptian interest after all, requires additional forces and heavier weaponry. “It is clear to everyone that the Egyptians — whether they succeed in dealing with the terror in Sinai or don’t — at some point are going to ask to open the military appendix,” Alex Fishman, a military affairs analyst, wrote Tuesday in Yediot Aharonot, a popular newspaper. “The meaning of this is that the demilitarization of Sinai will be eroded, which is one of the most important anchors of the peace agreement between Israel and Egypt.” Long bound by a so-called cold peace, the atmosphere between the two countries has grown chillier since the election of Mr. Morsi, a former leader of the Muslim Brotherhood. Adding to the uncertainty, Mr. Morsi forced out leading members of the military old guard this month, including many of the faces most familiar to Israel, in a move to regain political power that the military seized after the revolution last year. The purge came soon after a brazen Aug. 5 attack by gunmen who opened fire on an Egyptian Army checkpoint in the northern Sinai Peninsula, killing 16 soldiers. The gunmen then exploded a truck packed with explosives at the border fence with Israel and drove an armored vehicle, also loaded with explosives, about a mile into Israel before Israeli airstrikes destroyed it. The attack has underscored the urgency of the challenge that Sinai now presents for both sides, and added layers of complexity to an already fraught relationship. Israel says it has already shown flexibility, eager to encourage Mr. Morsi’s clampdown on militants operating in the peninsula. “Israel also looks at the glass half-full,” the government official said. “It welcomes the new Egyptian assertiveness.” Officials have noted that the military appendix to the treaty was modified two years ago, when the situation in Sinai began to deteriorate, to allow seven additional Egyptian battalions into the area, though Egypt has yet to fill that quota. About a week ago, the Israeli cabinet authorized the use of Egyptian helicopter gunships in Sinai as the Egyptian military took on the militants. But the official said that the entry of the tanks was not coordinated with Israel, as required under the treaty. Other officials said that it would be a significant overstatement to say that the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty was in trouble, and that Israel and Egypt had a history of working through their problems together. One acknowledged that communications between the two might not be flowing as smoothly as before, given the new faces and the chaotic aftermath of the Aug. 5 attack. But he added that the American administration was encouraging Israel and Egypt to keep working together, as they have in the past.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/world/middleeast/israel-asks-egypt-to-remove-tanks-from-sinai.html?_r=1&hp[/url]
This is bad. Egypt, put your tanks back where you agreed to leave them.
Good god haven't they learnt not to test Israel, [B]not saying they are always right[/B] but they ALWAYS come out on top in an engagement.
I think Israel knows the writing is on the wall, Egypt will have full military access and presence in the Sinai soon. The tradeoff is Egypt will be held responsible for curbing any terrorist action from there, lest Israel be forced to bomb the crap out of the area, possibly killing Egyptian military by 'accident'.
Egypt's military is too busy vying for power in government. No-one really expects them to launch an invasion.
[QUOTE=wizard`;37351357]Good god haven't they learnt not to test Israel, [B]not saying they are always right[/B] but they ALWAYS come out on top in an engagement.[/QUOTE] When you are supplied by the US it's not that hard.
[QUOTE=zakedodead;37351833]When you are supplied by the US it's not that hard.[/QUOTE] Even so, Israel has an incredible military history in its short period of existence. The 6 Day War was absolutely astonishing as far as their ability to completely neutralize several other nations through ruthless preemptive strikes. They are a formidable target, US aid or not. [editline]22nd August 2012[/editline] I mean, their existence used to depend on their ability to fight against numerous opponents at once.
[QUOTE=zakedodead;37351833]When you are supplied by the US it's not that hard.[/QUOTE] Israel does receive a little military support from the U.S., but they've become much more incredibly independent economically and militarily than they were when they first became independent. They could hold their own without U.S. help, although it's pretty obvious a direct invasion of it would probably prompt U.S. intervention.
[QUOTE=yawmwen;37351867]Even so, Israel has an incredible military history in its short period of existence. The 6 Day War was absolutely astonishing as far as their ability to completely neutralize several other nations through ruthless preemptive strikes. They are a formidable target, US aid or not. [editline]22nd August 2012[/editline] I mean, their existence used to depend on their ability to fight against numerous opponents at once.[/QUOTE] It's the fortress complex - similar to that of Northern Ireland's Protestants. When you're surrounded by hostile groups, you quickly place armed strength as a national priority - not just in terms of budgeting, but as a way of life, hence compulsory national service.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;37351720]Egypt's military is too busy vying for power in government. No-one really expects them to launch an invasion.[/QUOTE] Except that War is a very powerful uniting force - manufacture an enemy abroad to bring your own people to come together, "The Short Victorious War", etc.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;37353471]Except that War is a very powerful uniting force - manufacture an enemy abroad to bring your own people to come together, "The Short Victorious War", etc.[/QUOTE] Only if you can stir up proper jingoistic sentiments. If the military just provokes themselves into a war when no-one wants it, no-one expected it and it's their fault, they'll only dig their own grave.
[QUOTE=Devodiere;37353488]Only if you can stir up proper jingoistic sentiments. If the military just provokes themselves into a war when no-one wants it, no-one expected it and it's their fault, they'll only dig their own grave.[/QUOTE] They've got the perfect jingoistic sentiment to stir up - Religion. You forget that it is a lot more of a powerful unifying force in the Middle East than it is in the West.
[QUOTE=Craigewan;37353575]They've got the perfect jingoistic sentiment to stir up - Religion. You forget that it is a lot more of a powerful unifying force in the Middle East than it is in the West.[/QUOTE] The military are remnants from the secular regime and are politically feuding with the moderate Islamic party. Not only would they not be able to stir up religious fervour from being the polar opposite of it, to attempt it would probably kill them politically. Israel knows not to push them lest they turn to militarism, they're not going to give them any reason to support the military.
I really hope things keep calm a little while longer. Going to Israel the first week of October, so it would be kinda lame if some sort of war broke out. Not just talking about this incident, though. I hope they come to some sort of nice agreement.
[QUOTE=kazookie;37354797]I really hope things keep calm a little while longer. Going to Israel the first week of October, so it would be kinda lame if some sort of war broke out. Not just talking about this incident, though. I hope they come to some sort of nice agreement.[/QUOTE] Forgive me here, but saying that you'd hate a war to break out because it might affect your travel plans sounds shitty.
[QUOTE=wizard`;37351357]Good god haven't they learnt not to test Israel, [B]not saying they are always right[/B] but they ALWAYS come out on top in an engagement.[/QUOTE] That's why the last two forays into Lebanon were humiliating for Israel.
[QUOTE=Zambies!;37355157]Forgive me here, but saying that you'd hate a war to break out because it might affect your travel plans sounds shitty.[/QUOTE] Oh, no. Don't get me wrong. It would be shitty for me if a war broke out at the time I would be there. Not because of travel plans, but because there's family and some friends with me. Of course, I won't say it's not shitty for the Israeli people, it's probably worst for them, having their home destroyed. I can't say I would complain much if I had to get to a bomb shelter when being there either, since a part of the trip is in a part of the country that is threatened by missiles. I just don't wanna be there when the war is starting, to cut it short.
[QUOTE=kazookie;37354797]I really hope things keep calm a little while longer. Going to Israel the first week of October, so it would be kinda lame if some sort of war broke out. Not just talking about this incident, though. I hope they come to some sort of nice agreement.[/QUOTE] Go to the dead sea if you haven't before. It's incredible.
Funny, the government of Israel has been complaining for awhile now that Egypt is not doing [i]enough[/i] to make the Sinai secure from attacks by terrorists and rogue Bedouin ever since Mubarak was removed... but then Egypt tries to restore some order to that place and they throw a fit over it? How exactly do they think Egypt should even do this in the first place? I mean seriously, take this from the article. "About a week ago, the Israeli cabinet authorized the use of Egyptian helicopter gunships in Sinai as the Egyptian military took on the militants. But the official said that the entry of the tanks was not coordinated with Israel, as required under the treaty." Key part being "The Israeli cabinet authorized...". Egypt has to run by its domestic security concerns by Israel due to this? No wonder why the Egyptian government, not to mention the people, think the "peace agreement" is a load of shit.
[QUOTE=MercZ;37359709]Funny, the government of Israel has been complaining for awhile now that Egypt is not doing [i]enough[/i] to make the Sinai secure from attacks by terrorists and rogue Bedouin ever since Mubarak was removed... but then Egypt tries to restore some order to that place and they throw a fit over it? How exactly do they think Egypt should even do this in the first place? I mean seriously, take this from the article. "About a week ago, the Israeli cabinet authorized the use of Egyptian helicopter gunships in Sinai as the Egyptian military took on the militants. But the official said that the entry of the tanks was not coordinated with Israel, as required under the treaty." Key part being "The Israeli cabinet authorized...". Egypt has to run by its domestic security concerns by Israel due to this? No wonder why the Egyptian government, not to mention the people, think the "peace agreement" is a load of shit.[/QUOTE] It's part of a treaty. It has to be coordinated because of the 6 Day War. [quote]On the eve of the war, Egypt massed approximately 100,000 of its 160,000 troops in the Sinai, including all of its seven divisions (four infantry, two armored and one mechanized), four independent infantry brigades and four independent armored brigades. No fewer than a third of them were veterans of Egypt's intervention into the Yemen Civil War and another third were reservists. These forces had 950 tanks, 1,100 APCs and more than 1,000 artillery pieces.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#Arab_preparations[/url] This is the reason the Sinai isn't meant to have troops in it without both sides agreeing. Last time it happened, Israel was about to be attacked by several nations. The treaty is a bit out-dated, but it applies until new terms are arranged.
Too bad we don't have Jimmy Carter around anymore. :(
I'm kind of concerned that the article only fleetingly mention why the tanks are there. [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19206931[/url] [quote]It was at precisely this time last Sunday that a band of 35 or so heavily armed men moved in on a checkpoint near the town of Sheikh Zuweid. They caught the border sentries off-guard, just as they were settling down to break their day of fasting for the Islamic holy month of Ramadan. Amateur video captured the aftermath as medics rushed to help: the blood-soaked blankets and the limp bodies of 16 young soldiers. Meanwhile, the attackers rushed for the border with Israel in stolen vehicles. The Israeli military says one exploded and it successfully targeted another in an air strike.[/quote] The Egyptian military is now cracking down on militants in Sinai, it's called [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Eagle]Operation Eagle[/url]. In fact Egypt afaik only deployed troops after [url=http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-army-kills-20-militants-sinai-official-053535512.html]gaining approval from Israel[/url]. I don't understand why they are now 'alarmed' but it's not like Egypt just rolled their tanks in to fuck off Israel
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