Veteran complains about Xmas Angels. Gets them removed from county buildings.
169 replies, posted
[quote=The Press Democrat]Sonoma County's top official on Monday ordered the removal of stars, angels and other religious symbols from Christmas trees in county buildings after a complaint that the decorations violate constitutional protections.
“I understand the concern about government endorsing religion or a doctrine, and I respect that is not our role,” Acting County Administrator Chris Thomas said.
The complaint was lodged by Irv Sutley of Santa Rosa, a 65-year-old disabled veteran who has a long history of protesting the use of religious symbols in government settings.
One of the offending trees was in the lobby of Thomas' office. He said he didn't become aware that the star atop the tree might be a problem until consulting with county attorneys.
“A star on top of the tree is a religious symbol for some people,” Thomas said.
Sutley, an atheist and chairman of the county's central committee for the Peace and Freedom Party, said he spotted an angel on a tree in the lobby of the county Recorder's Office on Friday while gathering voter information for his bid for re-election in the June primary.
He said he found other offending items in the lobbies of various other departments, prompting a meeting Monday with Thomas. Sutley said he was simply asking the county to follow the law.
“I don't believe government has the right to use tax dollars to show favoritism to any particular cult like Christianity,” he said. “It's just wrong. That's why we have the Constitution, to protect minorities from the majority opinion.”
The U.S. Supreme Court in 1989 ruled in a case brought by the American Civil Liberties Union that government may celebrate Christmas in some form but not if it endorses Christian doctrine.
The court found that while a Christmas tree is not a religious symbol, it can take on that meaning if it is decorated with such symbols.
Thomas sent an e-mail Monday to managers of all 26 county departments asking them to take down the angels and stars.
“Please remove star toppers, angels and any other religious symbols from the trees so that we can celebrate the season yet not appear to endorse Christian or other religious doctrines,” the e-mail stated.
Sutley previously was successful in halting prayers at government meetings in several local cities and having Rohnert Park redesign its city emblem because it featured what appeared to be the Star of David and a church.
He said he's satisfied the county has complied with his request. But he hinted at more battles ahead, including asking the county to remove a cross that was erected on the border of Sonoma's Ernie Smith Park as a memorial to a crash victim.
“It's an unpermitted private memorial on public land and it has this religious symbolism,” Sutley said. “The place for a memorial is either at someone's house, in a cemetery or at a church — not on public land.”[/quote]
[url=http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091221/NEWS/912219968/1349?Title=Ban-on-angels-stars-on-county-Christmas-trees]Source[/url]
Hey, I understand separation of church and state, but, when it comes to the holidays, I don't think of stars necessarily as a 'religious' symbol, just a traditional Christmas Tree topping.
Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus. But if he doesn't like it, he should get over himself. Just like another old person with nothing to do but complain about the stupidest things.
[QUOTE=faze;19149527]Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus. But if he doesn't like it, he should get over himself. Just like another old person with nothing to do but complain about the stupidest things.[/QUOTE]
It's a holiday stolen from the Pagans. Most people I know who aren't even Christian celebrate Christmas. It's not stupid trying to uphold the constitution. It's stupid to let it continue to be dismissed. There's a reason why we have a separation of church and state.
[QUOTE=faze;19149527]Christmas is celebrating the birth of Jesus.[/QUOTE]
No it isn't.
[QUOTE=T-Minus10;19149645]It's a holiday stolen from the Pagans. Most people I know who aren't even Christian celebrate Christmas. It's not stupid trying to uphold the constitution. It's stupid to let it continue to be dismissed. There's a reason why we have a separation of church and state.[/QUOTE]
Lol Christmas isn't stolen from pagans.
[QUOTE=Wallettheifv3;19149653]No it isn't.[/QUOTE]
Oh, I'm sorry. It's celebrating a fat senior citizen interrupting the space-time continuum that delivers presents down your chimney. Excuse me.
[QUOTE=Musicfreak59;19149261][
Hey, I understand separation of church and state, but, when it comes to the holidays, I don't think of stars necessarily as a 'religious' symbol, just a traditional Christmas Tree topping.[/QUOTE]
It's a tribute to 'The Star of Bethlehem.'
[QUOTE=faze;19149665]Lol Christmas isn't stolen from pagans.
Oh, I'm sorry. It's celebrating a fat senior citizen interrupting the space-time continuum that delivers presents down your chimney. Excuse me.[/QUOTE]
Yule.
[QUOTE=faze;19149665]Lol Christmas isn't stolen from pagans.[/QUOTE]
:allears: Tell me, did you research it at all or did you just reject it forthright?
[QUOTE=T-Minus10;19149692]:allears: Tell me, did you research it at all or did you just reject it forthright?[/QUOTE]
I'm going to stop now, and not humor your... theory.
I'll say one last thing though, [B]Christ[/B]mas. See what I did there?
But what if Jesus never existed?
I'm atheist and there's a star on top of my tree because stars look [I]badass[/I]
[QUOTE=faze;19149703]I'm going to stop now, and not humor your... theory.[/QUOTE]
Yes, please. It's a battle you've already lost. Don't want to make a bigger fool of yourself.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_s9NWchEo8[/media]
[QUOTE=faze;19149703]I'm going to stop now, and not humor your... theory.
I'll say one last thing though, [B]Christ[/B]mas. See what I did there?[/QUOTE]
christians just renamed it duh
[QUOTE=killa101;19149718]But what if Jesus never existed?[/QUOTE]
[img]http://newsimg.ngfiles.com/26000/26609_untitled.JPG[/img]
[QUOTE=faze;19149703]I'm going to stop now, and not humor your... theory.
I'll say one last thing though, [B]Christ[/B]mas. See what I did there?[/QUOTE]
Bro, it's named Christmas because the Christians named it that, but there is a Pagan holiday on the exact same day from which Christmas traditions actually come from.
[QUOTE=Edthefirst;19149779]Bro, it's named Christmas because the Christians named it that, but there is a Pagan holiday on the exact same day from which Christmas traditions actually come from.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Yule.
[QUOTE=Edthefirst;19149779]Bro, it's named Christmas because the Christians named it that, but there is a Pagan holiday on the exact same day from which Christmas traditions actually come from.[/QUOTE]
[b]Christ[/b]mas
[b]Christ[/b] mass
Did you seriously never notice that before?
[QUOTE=faze;19149703]I'm going to stop now, and not humor your... theory.
I'll say one last thing though, [B]Christ[/B]mas. See what I did there?[/QUOTE]
Dude, it was taken from the pagans. Have you ever heard of the term 'syncretism'? It is the mix of beliefs, cultures, and religions between differing people in order to make living more harmonious, and it has happened since the dawn of man every time two or more civilizations mix. Christmas was most certainly originally a pagan holiday... when Christianity became prevalent in the area, the Church simply decided to include a holiday on the same day, honoring their own religion. This makes it easier for the local peoples to accept the new religion, since it falls upon the same date and therefore there is a sense of familiarity to it all, and the locals do not have to completely eschew all of their old traditions.
I thought this was common knowledge...
Oh and Christ was born sometime in early Spring, most likely March. It says that in the Bible.
[QUOTE=DamagePoint;19149841][b]Christ[/b]mas
[b]Christ[/b] mass
Did you seriously never notice that before?[/QUOTE]
I'm not debating the fact that Christmas is a Christian holdiay. I'm talking about the Christmas traditions (except for the whole Jesus thing) being taken from the Pagan holiday.
Real Christmas is going to church and celebrating Jesus. The nonreligious aspect stems directly from the Pagan holiday.
[editline]11:20AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=sebbonaparta;19149844]
Oh and Christ was born sometime in early Spring, most likely March. It says that in the Bible.[/QUOTE]
I thought the Bible never clearly stated a day or a time frame. It only really gave you such clues to the time of birth as described in the setting and other objects.
[QUOTE=Edthefirst;19149898]I'm not debating the fact that Christmas is a Christian holdiay. I'm talking about the Christmas traditions (except for the whole Jesus thing) being taken from the Pagan holiday.
Real Christmas is going to church and celebrating Jesus. The nonreligious aspect stems directly from the Pagan holiday.[/QUOTE]
I see what you're saying now. And actually I didn't notice the part about it being in a government building. In which case the woman has a point.
[QUOTE=Wallettheifv3;19149653]No it isn't.[/QUOTE]
Wow Are a dip shit or something?
[QUOTE=Musicfreak59;19149261][url=http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article/20091221/NEWS/912219968/1349?Title=Ban-on-angels-stars-on-county-Christmas-trees]Source[/url]
Hey, I understand separation of church and state, but, when it comes to the holidays, I don't think of stars necessarily as a 'religious' symbol, just a traditional Christmas Tree topping.[/QUOTE]
You can celebrate Christmas however you like, as long as you don't celebrate anything remotely relating to it. Someone might get "offended."
There's no protection against being offended in the Constitution.
[QUOTE=Edthefirst;19149898]I'm not debating the fact that Christmas is a Christian holdiay. I'm talking about the Christmas traditions (except for the whole Jesus thing) being taken from the Pagan holiday.
Real Christmas is going to church and celebrating Jesus. The nonreligious aspect stems directly from the Pagan holiday.[/QUOTE]
Mm, Jesus himself is pretty pagan too. If you look at the god Mithra, Jesus is practically a recycling of them. There's also Horus and Dionysus.
As much as I'm for the separation between state and church this is a little over the top isn't it? I mean, fuck. It's an angel, aren't those supposed to be universal symbols?
Give me a break, this is ridiculous.
It actually was taken from Pagan tradition, Jesus more than likely wasn't even born in this time of year.
Edit:
Massively ninja'ed
[QUOTE=Jax Strife;19150025]As much as I'm for the separation between state and church this is a little over the top isn't it? I mean, fuck. It's an angel, aren't those supposed to be universal symbols?[/QUOTE]
Like I said, old guy with nothing better to do but complain.
Christmas is barely even religious anymore.
It's not necessarily celebrating Jesus' birthday, but rather just celebrating [i]his birth.[/i]
[QUOTE=T-Minus10;19149645]It's a holiday stolen from the Pagans. Most people I know who aren't even Christian celebrate Christmas. It's not stupid trying to uphold the constitution. It's stupid to let it continue to be dismissed. There's a reason why we have a separation of church and state.[/QUOTE]
It's not really religious anymore, my family is atheist yet we still celebrate.
It's more of a tradition than anything. Never mind that removing religion from government hasn't done too much in the way of gay rights or the right to have gays marry or anything. Considering that most people are crazy christians who will vote no on such things.
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