Obama launches his final bid to close Guantanamo Bay
39 replies, posted
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35643961[/url]
[quote]The White House has revealed its plans for closing the controversial Guantanamo Bay detention facility, one of the president's long-term goals.
The Pentagon has proposed transferring the remaining 91 detainees to their home countries or to US military or civilian prisons.
But Congress is deeply opposed and expected to block the move.
The prison costs $445m (£316m) to run annually and closing it was an early promise from President Barack Obama.[/quote]
Would love to see this happen, but I don't get my hopes up.
[QUOTE]But Congress is deeply opposed and expected to block the move.[/QUOTE]
in all honesty, what hasnt congress blocked? didnt they block some 500 bills so far?
This has been said so many times, but do people not realize that the inmates will simply be shipped back to CIA black sites? At least now we know where they are.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49798408]This has been said so many times, but do people not realize that the inmates will simply be shipped back to CIA black sites? At least now we know where they are.[/QUOTE]
There's little more than 100 detainees left at the facility and it's still costing about 450 million per year in upkeep, it's a drain on taxpayer money and many international onlookers regard it as equivalent to us running a gulag. It would really serve the US well to close the place.
[QUOTE=Milkdairy;49798437]There's little more than 100 detainees left at the facility and it's still costing about 450 million per year in upkeep, it's a drain on taxpayer money and many international onlookers regard it as equivalent to us running a gulag. It would really serve the US well to close the place.[/QUOTE]
Whatever money that would be saved would simply be spent on maintaining the prisoners at black sites, but now we wouldn't even know how much is being spent on them. That's not a solution. And neither is shipping them off somewhere else. Out of sight out of mind is not a good attitude to have towards human beings.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49798408]This has been said so many times, but do people not realize that the inmates will simply be shipped back to CIA black sites?[/QUOTE]
[quote]the remaining 91 detainees to their home countries or to US military or civilian prisons.[/quote]
CIA black sites cleverly disguised as actual prisons?
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49798475]Out of sight out of mind is not a good attitude to have towards human beings.[/QUOTE]
And keeping them in Guan is? What kinda logic is that?
[QUOTE=catbarf;49798510]CIA black sites cleverly disguised as actual prisons?[/QUOTE]
obvious government LIES
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49798475]Whatever money that would be saved would simply be spent on maintaining the prisoners at black sites, but now we wouldn't even know how much is being spent on them. That's not a solution. And neither is shipping them off somewhere else. Out of sight out of mind is not a good attitude to have towards human beings.[/QUOTE]
The plan actually proposed is to prosecute the detainees federally and put them in domestic supermax, which undeniably saves money and international face compared to maintaining GTMO for less than 100 detainees. The rest will go overseas, but I doubt it's going to cost 4.5 million dolares per detainee to keep them locked up in another place.
[QUOTE=Mallow234;49798599]I think the problem comes from the valid concern that extremists released into supermax jails will radicalise other prisoners[/QUOTE]
Our supermax facilities rarely if ever allow contact with other prisoners, most of which is limited. I doubt these men will ever see another prisoner long enough for them to do any real radicalization. That, and most supermax prisoners are probably not muslims or are already radical terrorists. In terms of radicalization, the existence of GTMO itself serves as a much more useful tool of recruitment for terrorists than would moving the detainees into a supermax facility. However, you're absolutely right and the fed has actually acknowledged this concern. At worst, they'd have to be isolated completely from other prisoners which is an option, but closing GTMO is also the right choice.
I think the problem comes from the valid concern that extremists released into supermax jails will radicalise other prisoners
[QUOTE=Mallow234;49798599]I think the problem comes from the valid concern that extremists released into supermax jails will radicalise other prisoners[/QUOTE]
Supermax prisons have little prisoner interaction.
And often those in supermax won't be getting out of prison any time in the near future, so even if they were radicalized - so what, they're not going to be able to do anything in prison.
Not to mention, they should attempt really hard to deradicalize all prisoners if possible. If Nazi POWs can be shown the light, surely at least a few of these men can be also.
Theres only 91 prisoners? For god sakes its not worth $500m for 91 people.
The US is spending 550K/person. That's fucking ridiculous
It probably costs so much because they're on an isolated piece of land and gotta fly or ship everything in.
Another bill against freedom courageously blocked by Congress.
[QUOTE=Liem;49800341]The US is spending 550K/person. That's fucking ridiculous[/QUOTE]
actually it's more like 4.8 million per person
maybe each prisoner has their own personal luxury torture chamber
In all honesty, and unfortunately, I do not see this as being likely to coming true. Obama vowed when he was elected for us to see the end of Guantanamo Bay, but we have seen his struggle, and the amount of resistance he has encountered.
I personally disagree with Guantanamo Bay activists. It is not sanitary, nor very necessary to have such a place. Especially when people who are enforcing the torture, are not always sticking to the rules. I cannot imagine the psychological trauma of the prisoners, nor the psychological impact on those inflicting the torture whether they are aware of it or not.
As Liem said, the US is also spending 550k per person. This is ridiculous, and this money could be put to better causes. Surely there is a better and more effective way of dealing with these criminals?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49798703]Supermax prisons have little prisoner interaction.
And often those in supermax won't be getting out of prison any time in the near future, so even if they were radicalized - so what, they're not going to be able to do anything in prison.
Not to mention, they should attempt really hard to deradicalize all prisoners if possible. If Nazi POWs can be shown the light, surely at least a few of these men can be also.[/QUOTE]
I believe it is 23 hours a day in their cells, which all have 2 sets of doors for ADX Florence.
[t]http://i.imgur.com/v7ix0Xi.png[/t]
I'll just copy wiki here for it, to show how insane it is.
[quote]ADX Florence is a 37-acre (15 ha), 490-bed complex at 5880 Highway 67, Florence, Colorado, about 100 miles (160 km) south of Denver and 40 miles (60 km) south of Colorado Springs.[16] It is one part of the Florence Federal Correctional Complex (FFCC), which comprises three correctional facilities, each with a different security rating.[17]
The majority of the facility is above ground. The only part that is underground is a subterranean corridor that links cellblocks to the lobby. Inmates spend 23 hours a day locked in their cells and are escorted by a minimum of three officers for their five hours of private recreation per week.[18]
Each cell has a desk, a stool, and a bed, which are almost entirely made out of poured concrete, as well as a toilet that shuts off if blocked, a shower that runs on a timer to prevent flooding, and a sink lacking a potentially dangerous tap.
Rooms may also be fitted with polished steel mirrors bolted to the wall, an electric light that can only be shut off remotely, a radio, and on rare occasions, a black-and-white television that shows recreational, educational, and religious programming.[19]
[B]In addition, all cells are soundproofed to prevent prisoners from communicating with each other via Morse code.[/B]
The 4 in (10 cm) by 4 ft (120 cm) windows are designed to prevent inmates from knowing their specific location within the complex because they can see only the sky and roof through them, making it virtually impossible to plan an escape.
Inmates exercise in a concrete pit resembling an empty swimming pool, also designed to prevent them from knowing their location in the facility.[20] The pit is only large enough for a prisoner to walk 10 steps in a straight line, or 30 steps in a circle.
Telecommunication with the outside world is forbidden, and food is hand-delivered by correction officers. However, inmates sent here from other prisons can potentially be allowed to eat in a shared dining room.[8] The prison as a whole contains a multitude of motion detectors and cameras, and 1,400 remote-controlled steel doors. Guards in the prison's control center monitor inmates 24 hours a day and can activate a "panic button" that instantly closes every door in the facility should an escape attempt be suspected. Pressure pads and 12-foot-tall (3.7 m) razor wire fences surround the perimeter, which is patrolled by heavily armed guards with silent attack dogs. In extreme cases of inmate misbehavior, the center of the prison houses an area known as "Z-Unit" or "The Black Hole," which can hold up to 148 prisoners in completely darkened and fully soundproofed cells. Each Z-Unit cell is equipped with a full set of body restraints that are built directly into the concrete bed.
Cheri Nolan, a Deputy Assistant Attorney General under President George W. Bush, toured ADX Florence in 2004 while a member of the advisory board for the National Institute of Corrections, a federal agency that supports correctional programs. Nolan stated, "I've never seen anything like it as far as the technology and physical set up. Once you're inside you really can't tell where you are - what's north, south, east or west. The way it's designed, it's an interesting kind of setup," Nolan said. "Because of the high value of targets they have there - on a world scale, whether it be a drug cartel or terrorists - they are as concerned with someone trying to get in to break someone out as much as they are about inmates trying to escape. The protection around the prison is pretty remarkable."[18]
The Federal Bureau of Prisons allowed the media to take a guided tour of ADX on September 14, 2007. Attending reporters remarked on "an astonishing and eerie quiet" within the prison as well as a sense of safety due to the rigorous security measures in place within the facility.[21] One journalist who took the tour, 60 Minutes producer Henry Schuster, said: "A few minutes inside that cell and two hours inside Supermax were enough to remind me why I left high school a year early. The walls close in very fast."[22][/quote]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ADX_Florence[/url]
Literally no way of radicalising other prisoners, it is crazy secure. They wouldn't be allowed the shared dining room and such.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49798408]This has been said so many times, but do people not realize that the inmates will simply be shipped back to CIA black sites? At least now we know where they are.[/QUOTE]
I really doubt this, the prisoners right now have as comfortable of a lifestyle you can get in that environment. Movies, education, video games, sports, religious services, etc. It's not a super secret CIA torture facility like people think it is anymore, anyone can get stationed there. Hell, last week I was offered orders to do detainee ops at Gitmo. With the amount of public awareness about Gitmo those detainees won't dissappear like you think they would.
[QUOTE=Pantz Master;49798475]Whatever money that would be saved would simply be spent on maintaining the prisoners at black sites, but now we wouldn't even know how much is being spent on them. That's not a solution. And neither is shipping them off somewhere else. Out of sight out of mind is not a good attitude to have towards human beings.[/QUOTE]
have you even read the plan? they're not going to blacksites they're being put into existing military prisons
I think Gitmo is too valuable of a place to give up. But as someone posted earlier, these people will just be taken to [i]other[/i] blacksites identical to Gitmo, so I wouldn't really be bothered should this place get closed down. Hopefully we do a better job of keeping this secret from now on.
[QUOTE=wystan;49802870]I think Gitmo is too valuable of a place to give up. But as someone posted earlier, these people will just be taken to [i]other[/i] blacksites identical to Gitmo, so I wouldn't really be bothered should this place get closed down. Hopefully we do a better job of keeping this secret from now on.[/QUOTE]
you hope that hysteria-born human rights abuse against largely innocent people with no trials is better hidden in the future?
[QUOTE=bitches;49802935]you hope that hysteria-born human rights abuse against largely innocent people with no trials is better hidden in the future?[/QUOTE]
This is the guy that started like 8 pages of shit by outright arguing in support of torture in another topic. He's probably a troll, but he's really good at avoiding saying things that will get him banned.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;49802956]This is the guy that started like 8 pages of shit by outright arguing in support of torture in another topic. He's probably a troll, but he's really good at avoiding saying things that will get him banned.[/QUOTE]
thanks for saving me the trouble
[QUOTE=wystan;49802870]I think Gitmo is too valuable of a place to give up. But as someone posted earlier, these people will just be taken to [i]other[/i] blacksites identical to Gitmo, so I wouldn't really be bothered should this place get closed down. Hopefully we do a better job of keeping this secret from now on.[/QUOTE]
It literally says right in the article that they're not going to other "CIA black sites".
Just as the person you mentioned earlier, you failed to read the article not just in the source but the OP itself.
I wish this still was bannable.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49804568]It literally says right in the article that they're not going to other "CIA black sites".
Just as the person you mentioned earlier, you failed to read the article not just in the source but the OP itself.
I wish this still was bannable.[/QUOTE]
I'm almost positive he's a troll anyways, look at the derailed caucus thread. I still can't understand the insistence to keep Guantanamo, we have a classification for these kinds of detainees now, we have long term plans for what to do with them, and we don't need to keep them outside our legal system, or any legal system for that matter any longer. Advocating for Guantanamo is ignoring the Constitution and all its laws because it's convenient, and when we start institutionalising ignoring the most fundamental laws of our land because of convenience, then we cease to be an actual country. I understand where gbay came from, it like internment camps, suspension of haybeus corpus, and other incidents throughout US history have been the result of momentary panic, but after ww2, we didn't insist that the internment camps stay open.
5 million dollars a year per prisoner !? What are they doing there, building NASA space rockets ?
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;49804568]It literally says right in the article that they're not going to other "CIA black sites".
Just as the person you mentioned earlier, you failed to read the article not just in the source but the OP itself.
I wish this still was bannable.[/QUOTE]
Literally doesn't say that in the article though. I had to [B]re[/B]-read the article to check, it says "...other military prisons". Which I don't see how that can't just be another blacksite, why would they openly admit to moving them there, when you can just say "other military prisons".
[editline]24th February 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sableye;49804650]I'm almost positive he's a troll anyways, look at the derailed caucus thread. I still can't understand the insistence to keep Guantanamo, we have a classification for these kinds of detainees now, we have long term plans for what to do with them, and we don't need to keep them outside our legal system, or any legal system for that matter any longer. Advocating for Guantanamo is ignoring the Constitution and all its laws because it's convenient, and when we start institutionalising ignoring the most fundamental laws of our land because of convenience, then we cease to be an actual country. I understand where gbay came from, it like internment camps, suspension of haybeus corpus, and other incidents throughout US history have been the result of momentary panic, but after ww2, we didn't insist that the internment camps stay open.[/QUOTE]
I didn't derail that thread to be clear.
Does the CIA even have black sites anymore? The extraordinary rendition program ended as soon as Obama took office and we know no one has been sent to Gitmo since then either
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.