148-90 vote in FAVOR of expanding overseas military engagements by Japan - Polidicks

[quote]Japan's upper chamber of Parliament early Saturday approved controversial bills allowing the country's military to engage in overseas combat in limited circumstances -- a major shift after seven decades of pacifism. The 148-90 vote was the final hurdle for the measures, which will go into effect within roughly the next six months. The lower parliamentary chamber passed the bills in July. The legislation reinterprets Article 9 of the Japan's pacifist post-World War II constitution, which outlaws war as a means of settling international disputes. The reinterpretation will now allow the Japanese military, known as the Self-Defense Forces, to defend its allies in a limited role in conflicts abroad. Japanese troops operating overseas had previously been limited to humanitarian roles. Article 9 of Japan's constitution says, in part, "Aspiring sincerely to an international peace based on justice and order, the Japanese people forever renounce war as a sovereign right of the nation and the threat or use of force as means of settling international disputes."[/quote] [url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/18/asia/japan-military-constitution/index.html[/url] [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Naval_ensign_of_the_Empire_of_Japan.svg/220px-Naval_ensign_of_the_Empire_of_Japan.svg.png[/img]

this will be fun

End of an era.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48715585][url]http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/18/asia/japan-military-constitution/index.html[/url] [/QUOTE] I mean this in a genuinely curious way, what's the worst that could happen?

[QUOTE=UserDirk580;48715617]I mean this in a genuinely curious way, what's the worst that could happen?[/QUOTE] [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Naval_ensign_of_the_Empire_of_Japan.svg/220px-Naval_ensign_of_the_Empire_of_Japan.svg.png[/img] [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] I kid. The worse that happens is Japan gets dragged into other people's wars that it really has no issue in, like the UK into Iraq and Afghanistan.

Woo

What's pretty stupid is though that a good amount of misinformed people here think that they'll get dragged into war even if they're not in the military. That isn't the case (I think?).

[QUOTE=daigennki;48715698]What's pretty stupid is though that people here think that they'll get dragged into war even if they're not in the military. That isn't the case (I think?).[/QUOTE] So long as you don't have forced conscription, then no.

[QUOTE=daigennki;48715698]What's pretty stupid is though that a good amount of misinformed people here think that they'll get dragged into war even if they're not in the military. That isn't the case (I think?).[/QUOTE] No, Japan has an all volunteer force. Some people here don't know the difference between that and conscription though.

I'm not holding my breath, but hopefully this will deal a major blow to people's confidence in the LDP. Opposition parties have vowed to repeal this, but it's not possible in the current Diet which is dominated by the LDP. This is an important time for Japanese democracy, starting in 2009 when the LDP for the first time in history lost their monopoly on political power, and this could be a major development. [QUOTE=UserDirk580;48715617]I mean this in a genuinely curious way, what's the worst that could happen?[/QUOTE] If Japan signs a strategic agreement with the Phillipines (or Taiwan, in a possible future where Taiwan-Mainland relations worsen) then they'll be able to exert naval pressure in the South China Sea like the U.S. does with its carrier groups. Probably nothing will change in the East China Sea where the Japanese Coast Guard already occupies disputed territory. More than anything it's a slippery slope. A few years down the line you might see Japanese soldiers in the Middle East or Africa, cooperating with your run of the mill NATO coalition as another of America's sidekicks. Previously, Japan's military has only been able to participate in humanitarian efforts, and even that was criticized. This could all be made more likely by the fact that Japan has energy security issues; after the Fukushima nuclear reactor partial meltdown and the following wave of anti-nuclear sentiment, coal, oil and gas imports are more important for Japan than ever, which also means that strategic interest in sea regions with potential undersea oil or gas is heightened. We could see Japan move away from German-style economic focus to American-style hegemony.

Yeah. This is a big change. Again though, it isn't like Japan has conscription.

Stretching that good old military muscle Japan? This can only end good....:v:

I don't really think this is a bad thing though I would like to see the LDP kicked out of power. Something is seriously wrong when one party is in power for half a century.

[QUOTE=Deathtrooper2;48715930]Stretching that good old military muscle Japan? This can only end good....:v:[/QUOTE] Yeah, the Military muscle equivalent of being able to curl a 15 lb dumbbell.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;48716074]Yeah, the Military muscle equivalent of being able to curl a 15 lb dumbbell.[/QUOTE] Pretty much, of all the times I've worked with JMSDF and JGSDF I can say that that are ill equipped and trained to fight any sort of war. As far as I'm concerned this will just allow them to have more military flexibility. They really lack any sort of power projection even with the MASSIVE helo-carriers they've been building. [QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48715721]So long as you don't have forced conscription, then no.[/QUOTE] Never, not only are they an all volunteer force but they, from what I understand cannot be legal bound to contract like just about every country does. If you were a E-5 in the JMSDF you can just put in a resignation and leave. This unfortunately have given the JSDF HUGE retention problems as this forces them to pay extremely competitively. This is also why Japan has such a small force while spending so much on maintaining it.

[QUOTE=Ta16;48716097]Pretty much, of all the times I've worked with JMSDF and JGSDF I can say that that are ill equipped and trained to fight any sort of war. As far as I'm concerned this will just allow them to have more military flexibility. They really lack any sort of power projection even with the MASSIVE helo-carriers they've been building. Never, not only are they an all volunteer force but they, from what I understand cannot be legal bound to contract like just about every country does. If you were a E-5 in the JMSDF you can just put in a resignation and leave. This unfortunately have given the JSDF HUGE retention problems as this forces them to pay extremely competitively. This is also why Japan has such a small force while spending so much on maintaining it.[/QUOTE] Worked with a JMSDF Psychiatrist who confirmed this, you can leave whenever you want.

A sovereign nation should have the ability to set foreign policy as they see fit. 2015 Japan is not 1940 Japan.

[QUOTE=jA_cOp;48715755]More than anything it's a slippery slope. A few years down the line you might see Japanese soldiers in the Middle East or Africa, cooperating with your run of the mill NATO coalition as another of America's sidekicks. Previously, Japan's military has only been able to participate in humanitarian efforts, and even that was criticized. This could all be made more likely by the fact that Japan has energy security issues; after the Fukushima nuclear reactor partial meltdown and the following wave of anti-nuclear sentiment, coal, oil and gas imports are more important for Japan than ever, which also means that strategic interest in sea regions with potential undersea oil or gas is heightened. We could see Japan move away from German-style economic focus to American-style hegemony.[/QUOTE]Settle down, your military is nowhere near capable of doing anything you're talking about and it's not even likely they'd be able to defend Japan without our help. You're not going to war with everyone tomorrow lol

According to my US military friend, the JGSDF is laughable in training Good on them though, I don't see why people are freaking out considering the fact they have no standoff capabilities, and would ultimately just join NATO parties at the behest of the US anyway, kinda like the Bundeswehr

[QUOTE=JumpinJackFlash;48716341]Settle down, your military is nowhere near capable of doing anything you're talking about and it's not even likely they'd be able to defend Japan without our help. You're not going to war with everyone tomorrow lol[/QUOTE] You should read what I said. I never said anything about going to war on anyone, much less immediately and/or alone.

I doubt we'll be seeing Japanese Imperialism. Shame that the Japanese people will be wasting money on missions that will probably be pointless but at least they'll be an equal to their allies.

[QUOTE=Kill001;48716447]According to my US military friend, the JGSDF is laughable in training Good on them though, I don't see why people are freaking out considering the fact they have no standoff capabilities, and would ultimately just join NATO parties at the behest of the US anyway, kinda like the Bundeswehr[/QUOTE] A laughable training isn't a good thing, odds are the civilian government won't care about that if they decided to send these troops overseas to fight.

Japan wants to put ships outside of its own waters to show off to China in the Sea of Japan. Its all about who owns what water. This is not about actually fighting any wars

[QUOTE=proboardslol;48716799]Japan wants to put ships outside of its own waters to show off to China in the Sea of Japan. Its all about who owns what water. This is not about actually fighting any wars[/QUOTE] But they already do that....?

I don't think Japan is ever going to go back to the Kamakaze honorbound ways that they had in WW2. And if they do, we'll see it from a mile away. Besides, I think they have every right to have a military, they've been quite decent in their standards, excluding the fact that they never seem to fuck anymore. Any country should have the capability of it, and I doubt it'd stop any country from doing it anyways if they had ill intent. Now they can at least help out in wars if we ever need them to.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;48716552]A laughable training isn't a good thing, odds are the civilian government won't care about that if they decided to send these troops overseas to fight.[/QUOTE] I'm highly guessing that they'll initially end up being relegated to logistics and rear security. The JSDF isn't ready to tackle insurgents based on their training - I hope this changes soon with their bill passing, and training is taken more seriously. [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] Also the people saying that Japan might revert to Imperialism because of this is ridiculous that's about as likely as Germany reverting back to being Nazis

[QUOTE=Kill001;48716853]I'm highly guessing that they'll initially end up being relegated to logistics and rear security. The JSDF isn't ready to tackle insurgents based on their training - I hope this changes soon with their bill passing, and training is taken more seriously. [editline]18th September 2015[/editline] Also the people saying that Japan might revert to Imperialism because of this is ridiculous that's about as likely as Germany reverting back to being Nazis[/QUOTE] Exactly, Japan won't go all imperial because they know that the Americans will drop them another one

[QUOTE=Antlerp;48718070]Exactly, Japan won't go all imperial because they know that the Americans will drop them another one[/QUOTE] Why does every discussion about Japan have to be about WW2?

[QUOTE=Antlerp;48718070]Exactly, Japan won't go all imperial because they know that the Americans will drop them another one[/QUOTE] Well of course Japan wouldn't, but it's silly to suggest that it's merely because America would drop another nuclear bomb on them, especially when the U.S. is one of their major allies. Imperialism simply isn't a part of the national identity of Japan, or most other modern countries, anymore. Further globalization and the Cold War has put an end to most expansion and large-scale warfare. As others have said, Japan most likely desires to deter China from causing territorial disputes, and they may even wish to get involved in conflicts in which their allies fight. I myself am mixed regarding this whole ordeal but I do believe that it wouldn't change Japan's ideals.

If anything, this'll allow the Japanese military to get actual combat training?