OSCE: Gas Attack on Donetsk Defenders is Plausible - Polidicks

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAQHn_JlpdI[/media] [quote]he SMM continued to monitor the implementation of the provisions of the Minsk Protocol and Memorandum and the work of the Joint Centre for Control and Co-ordination (JCCC). The SMM observed shelling damage and continued shelling, especially in Donetsk city. In three separate locations in “Donetsk People’s Republic” (“DPR”)-controlled Donetsk city centre – two approximately 3km north-west and one 2.8km west-north-west of the city centre – the SMM observed damage to civilian properties, caused, according to residents, by shells on 19 January. At one of these locations, a resident said a 64-year-old man had been killed and his wife injured. At another “DPR”-controlled location 4km south-west of the city-centre the SMM heard shelling and observed a crater. Residents said a man had been killed in the area on 19 January when a shell struck, and his wife and child had been injured. At another location 8km west of the city centre, the SMM observed damaged residential homes, the result of shelling the previous day, according to local people. The SMM also observed a crater approximately 30 metres from Hospital No. 17 on “DPR”-controlled Panfilova Avenue in Kuibyshevskii District – 2.6km west of the city centre – caused, according to the hospital manager, by shelling on 19 January. At Kalinsky Central Hospital No. 3 on “DPR”-controlled Ovnatanyana Street – 1.8km east of the city centre – the SMM observed what it assessed to be shelling damage to the front of the building. The deputy director of the hospital told the SMM that the hospital had been hit by shelling on 19 January. He said 16 intensive-care patients had been transferred to other medical facilities, whilst 120 others, including 10 infants, had been discharged because the hospital was limited in its capacity and functioning. In government-controlled Debaltseve (55km north-east of Donetsk), the director of the education department of the local administration told the SMM that 860 school children were no longer attending class and were instead engaged in distance-learning, as a result of shelling in the city on 19 January. He said the remainder of the 1,290 registered children of school age in the area were believed to have left the area. While on patrol at a government-controlled location 25km north of Donetsk, the SMM heard approximately 10 outgoing and three incoming artillery rounds. In government-controlled Staronativka (48km south of Donetsk), the SMM heard six outgoing artillery rounds from a location approximately 5km to the south. A female resident told the SMM that there had been shelling in the village the previous evening and overnight. The SMM observed several shell impacts close to homes, and noted homes which had been damaged, apparently by shells. A Ukrainian soldier in a hospital in government-controlled Konstantinovka (56km north of Donetsk) told the SMM that he was being treated for injuries sustained at the Donetsk airport on 19 January. He said 80 Ukrainian soldiers in total had suffered the same injuries, manifested in uncontrollable muscle spasms, vomiting and difficult breathing. Some, he said, had become unconscious. Eleven of the soldiers had been transferred to a hospital in Dnepropetrovsk, he said. At the Joint Centre for Control and Co-ordination (JCCC) headquarters in government-controlled Debaltseve (55km north-east of Donetsk), the Chiefs of Staff of the Ukrainian and Russian Federation Armed Forces told the SMM that there had been further deterioration in security in the previous 24 hours. In the 24 hours preceding 08.00hrs, 20 January, they said there had been 140 ceasefire violations in the JCCC’s area of responsibility, 77 committed by the Ukrainian Armed Forces, and 63 by armed groups affiliated to the “DPR” or the “Lugansk People’s Republic” (“LPR”). Fifty of the violations were recorded, they said, at or in the environs of the Donetsk airport. At the JCCC office in government-controlled Svitlodarsk (55km north-north-east of Donetsk), the Ukrainian and Russian Federation military officers present reported that there had been 16 ceasefire violations in their area of responsibility in the 24 hours preceding 08:00hrs, 20 January. They said this represented a slight decrease as compared to the previous 24-hour period. In government-controlled Toshkivka (70km west of Luhansk), the SMM heard multiple outgoing mortar and artillery rounds discharged from a location 3 to 5km east-north-east of its position. Representatives of two hospitals in Dnepropetrovsk city told the SMM that approximately 150 wounded soldiers in total had been admitted to both hospitals in the previous two days, some of them having served at the Donetsk airport. The head of the town council of Rozivka (260 south-east of Dnepropetrovsk) told the SMM that an explosion had taken place close to the town on 20 January. Earlier media reports suggested that a railway bridge had been targeted, and that ten rail carriages of a cargo train had been de-railed. Approximately 50 masked people participated in an anti-Russia and anti-“Novorossiya” demonstration in Odessa on 19 January. With 20 police officers present, they waved Ukrainian and Azov volunteer battalion flags, and chanted pro-Ukrainian slogans. They dispersed peacefully after 45 minutes. Representatives of the State Inspectorate of Ukraine for Land Transport Safety and the Ministry of Infrastructure told the SMM in Kyiv that, following a ministerial decision on 26 December to stop regular bus transport to Crimea, all bus transport to Crimea had been suspended on 20 January. They said bus transport in and out of non-government-controlled areas of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions had been suspended on 6 January. The situation remained calm in Kharkiv, Kherson, Chernivtsi, Ivano-Frankivsk and Lviv.[/quote] [url=http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/135671]OSCE[/url] As reporters were coming to the scene to film the victory of the rebels at the airport, they came across a small group of rebels pulling off Russian-made gasmasks.. [t]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B792cvgCYAETys_.png:large[/t] It has been stated by the OSCE that roughly 80 Ukrainian cyborgs(long standing defenders), are currently being treated 50km north of Donetsk for injuries that appear to be the work of chemical warfare. Roughly twelve to fifteen are in such serious condition that they needed to be evacuated to a hospital further from the battlefield in order to give them proper care. I don't know about you guys, but if gas is being used, regardless of the side, this war has gone to far and it needs to become a UN mission.

This sounds like something the Russians would stoop to.

snip fuck it

Both sides are really shit. I just hope for a compromisation by both sides. Some autonomous structure for the East, while still belonging in Ukraine, might be plausible. At least would end hostilities.

Fucking russians, they have so much land which is shitty to live in and they want more.

hey, at least they aren't dead. and at least they aren't dead civilians like those people in donetsk who got shelled by the ukranians.

[QUOTE=twonkletoes;46993195]This sounds like something the Russians would stoop to.[/QUOTE] Like nobody else in history has used chemical weapons.

[QUOTE=twonkletoes;46993195]This sounds like something the Russians would stoop to.[/QUOTE] friendly reminder that not only russians use chemical weapons, remember agent orange?

Interesting how the same organization didn't even notice when the exact same symptoms were claimed by "rebels" in Luhansk and Slavyansk last year. And rightly so, because those symptoms look very similar to what you get after being exposed to large amounts of chemicals produced by smoke rounds and do not automatically imply chemical attacks. Not saying I really understand why dangerous side effects of smoke bombs don't make them illegal, but that's beside the point. And gasmasks don't really imply anything either. I'm pretty sure Ukrainians have those too in their standard loadout. Which only makes sense because both parties use more smoke rounds than they do live ammunition, especially how rebel-bandits immediately engaged in this "smoke warfare" when that shameful one-sided "cease fire" was established. I won't be surprised if bandits used some kind of gas if they had it, but this case hardly proves that. A bit over a hundred of soldiers sitting in and around a stationary position, with large amounts of smoke rounds poured on their heads for over a month do not require chem-attack for large numbers of them to get really sick. Hell, that might've been the intention of bandit commanders.

[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46993724]friendly reminder that not only russians use chemical weapons, remember agent orange?[/QUOTE] it makes me super duper mad that agent orange is still called a "defoliant" when americans and vietnamese people who were affected by it request compensation. Agent orange was only one of a bunch of pretty horrible chemicals they used to clear vegetation, too.

[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46993724]friendly reminder that not only russians use chemical weapons, remember agent orange?[/QUOTE] Agent orange wasn't a chemical weapon and if it was it wouldn't be a very effective chemical weapon.

[QUOTE=download;46993762]Agent orange wasn't a chemical weapon and if it was it wouldn't be a very effective chemical weapon.[/QUOTE] At least Sarin or VX kills you. Agent orange disfigured a hell of a lot of kids and bioaccumulated in the ground. It might not have been designated or used as a chemical weapon but it is one.

[QUOTE=download;46993762]Agent orange wasn't a chemical weapon and if it was it wouldn't be a very effective chemical weapon.[/QUOTE] Any chemical can be used as a weapon. It's still illegal regardless their effects.

[QUOTE=OutspokenGolf;46993857]At least Sarin or VX kills you. Agent orange disfigured a hell of a lot of kids and bioaccumulated in the ground. It might not have been designated or used as a chemical weapon but it is one.[/QUOTE] Agent Orange isn't a chemical weapon because it's completely useless as a weapon. It take years to have any effect on people. Actual chemical weapons are designed to kill or incapacitate quickly.

[QUOTE=download;46993940]Agent Orange isn't a chemical weapon because it's completely useless as a weapon. It take years to have any effect on people. Actual chemical weapons are designed to kill or incapacitate quickly.[/QUOTE] Yes, but that's what i'm saying! In a way, a chemical like AO is so much worse than conventional chemical weapons. It might not have any effect right now but your kid's going to have three legs and a cleft palate! I'd rather just have the instant neurotoxic death, thanks.

[QUOTE=download;46993940]Agent Orange isn't a chemical weapon because it's completely useless as a weapon. It take years to have any effect on people. Actual chemical weapons are designed to kill or incapacitate quickly.[/QUOTE] which is why it is way worse, you're destroying entire generations of people instead of a select few instantaneously. I was pointing out the irony of an american condemning Ukrainian separatists when their country has and still does much worse against foreign populations even to this day.

[QUOTE=Dromlexer;46993929]Any chemical can be used as a weapon. It's still illegal regardless their effects.[/QUOTE] What about this chemical C6H2(NO2)3CH3? Most weapons are or use chemical explosives ie chemicals. Its not illegal for an army to use explosives. You need to be a bit more specific.

[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46993967]which is why it is way worse, you're destroying entire generations of people instead of a select few instantaneously. I was pointing out the irony of an american condemning Ukrainian separatists when their country has and still does much worse against foreign populations even to this day.[/QUOTE] Except they didn't deliberately spray AO on people and at the time they had no idea that Dioxins caused cancer and birth defects. [editline]23rd January 2015[/editline] Hell, it wasn't even that Agent orange that was the problem, instead AO was contaminated with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzodioxin]2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin[/url] that caused the cancer and birth defects.

[QUOTE=download;46994003]Except they didn't deliberately spray AO on people and at the time they had no idea that Dioxins caused cancer and birth defects. [editline]23rd January 2015[/editline] Hell, it wasn't even that Agent orange that was the problem, instead AO was contaminated with [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzodioxin]2,3,7,8-Tetrachlorodibenzo-p-dioxin[/url] that caused the cancer and birth defects.[/QUOTE] napalm them? it was a chemical, used as a weapon. white prosperous? used as recently as 2004. (source: [url]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-forces-used-chemical-weapons-during-assault-on-city-of-fallujah-514433.html[/url] )

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;46993976]What about this chemical C6H2(NO2)3CH3? Most weapons are or use chemical explosives ie chemicals. Its not illegal for an army to use explosives. You need to be a bit more specific.[/QUOTE] I'm not going to call out your claims or vision wrong. But I see explosives as a completely different kind from chemical weapons. What I mean that that the compound you provided ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinitrotoluene"]Trinitrotoluene[/URL] - better known as TNT) has different applications. For the first is that the application as an explosive is because it's prepared and manufactured to be safe and less toxic when handled. It's in nature: toxic, explosive (violent reaction) and an environment hazard. It can be used as an impractical chemical weapon as it only causes skin irritation and several long-exposure symptoms. Heck I don't really know what I'm glibbering about now. But still. TNT is still a toxic chemical. While it's used in explosives. It's less toxic and arguably too impractical as a chemical weapon because it has been prepared for said application. While it's used by many, construction, demolition, mining and military. It's not banned, it just has lot of safety measurements. Else it's just because of how it's handled and used.

[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46993724]friendly reminder that not only russians use chemical weapons, remember agent orange?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MrBunneh;46993967]which is why it is way worse, you're destroying entire generations of people instead of a select few instantaneously. I was pointing out the irony of an american condemning Ukrainian separatists when their country has and still does much worse against foreign populations even to this day.[/QUOTE] What the hell is even up with this whataboutism that crops up in these Ukraine threads whenever someone criticizes Russia fighting illegal wars, getting civilians killed, funding insurrections etc etc. Everyone knows the US has done this shit, that doesn't make Russia/the rebels right.

[QUOTE=Zezibesh;46994199]What the hell is even up with this whataboutism that crops up in these Ukraine threads whenever someone criticizes Russia fighting illegal wars, getting civilians killed, funding insurrections etc etc. Everyone knows the US has done this shit, that doesn't make Russia/the rebels right.[/QUOTE] Even though I hate this tendency, to be fair half the time it's provoked by posts like this: [QUOTE=twonkletoes;46993195]This sounds like something the Russians would stoop to.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=gudman;46994207]Even though I hate this tendency, to be fair half the time it's provoked by posts like this:[/QUOTE] exactly this. I do not condone any actions the rebels or ukranians may or may not have done against citizens, nor any unnecessarily cruel treatments of enemy combatants on that battlefield. I'm just pointing out the irony of anyone from a country condemning anyone for doing something unjust when their country has or does do crimes just as bad or worse.

[QUOTE=OutspokenGolf;46993716]Like nobody else in history has used chemical weapons.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=MrBunneh;46993724]friendly reminder that not only russians use chemical weapons, remember agent orange?[/QUOTE] Friendly reminder that the use of a defoliant that was decommissioned when it was found to have side effects and the use of a nerve agent designed to incapacitate the enemy and explicitly banned by the 1925 Geneva Protocol are absolutely not, in any way whatsoever, the same. Resorting to chemical warfare is a serious war crime and needs to be punished.

I should note that in a long tank fight tank crews usually put their gas masks on simply because all the gasses from firing the tank's canon make it impossible to breathe. With all the artillery, gunfire, many diesel engines around, burning fires I see nothing surprising in some soldiers walking around in gas masks. The OSCE report in question says nothing about gas, gas masks, chemicals. Sensationalist headlines at its finest.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46994675]I should note that in a long tank fight tank crews usually put their gas masks on simply because all the gasses from firing the tank's canon make it impossible to breathe.[/QUOTE] These were Ukrainian soldiers hold up in the airport in Donetsk, they weren't tank crews. [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46994675]With all the artillery, gunfire, many diesel engines around, burning fires I see nothing surprising in some soldiers walking around in gas masks.[/QUOTE] I do, it might make breathing easier but it limits the oxygen you intake, making yourself stress harder to do simple things like running, walking, climbing, etc. It also limits yourself tactically, you can't bring a rifle to your cheek to fire because the gas mask gets in the way. For what a gas mask could help a soldier with, so could a simple rag with water on it. [editline]23rd January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46994675]The OSCE report in question says nothing about gas, gas masks, chemicals. Sensationalist headlines at its finest.[/QUOTE] [quote=OSCE]A Ukrainian soldier in a hospital in government-controlled Konstantinovka (56km north of Donetsk) told the SMM that he was being treated for injuries sustained at the Donetsk airport on 19 January. He said 80 Ukrainian soldiers in total had suffered the same injuries, [b]manifested in uncontrollable muscle spasms, vomiting and difficult breathing. Some, he said, had become unconscious.[/b] Eleven of the soldiers had been transferred to a hospital in Dnepropetrovsk, he said.[/quote] What can cause this then? I know all the smoke, ash, dust, etc from a conflict isn't that great on peoples lungs, but does it make people convulse?

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;46994699]These were Ukrainian soldiers hold up in the airport in Donetsk, they weren't tank crews. [/QUOTE] They were hiding in enclosed space. I have read reports that rebels used tanks that would drive up to a building, fire the main canon at it, drive away. I am also pretty sure "cyborgs" got shelled a lot with 30mm mortars, had a lot of grenades thrown at them. Hell, even gases from their personal weaponry are enough to make it very hard to breathe in a room. I can see them being in the same position as tank crews, this is why I brought it up. I just want to say that when you fight in enclosed space with no proper ventilation it's normal for soldiers to use gas masks. Rags are good, but the gasses hurt your eyes too, that's why tank crews don't use wet rags over gas masks.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46994675]I should note that in a long tank fight tank crews usually put their gas masks on simply because all the gasses from firing the tank's canon make it impossible to breathe. With all the artillery, gunfire, many diesel engines around, burning fires I see nothing surprising in some soldiers walking around in gas masks. The OSCE report in question says nothing about gas, gas masks, chemicals. Sensationalist headlines at its finest.[/QUOTE] Russia wins gold in mental gymnastics. Well done, you must be proud of your nation.

[QUOTE=purvisdavid1;46994699] What can cause this then? I know all the smoke, ash, dust, etc from a conflict isn't that great on peoples lungs, but does it make people convulse?[/QUOTE] You may be right, but you also may be wrong. "What else could cause it" is no proof of chemical attack. In a previous thread about this exact line someone noted that simply being pressured so much can cause all these symphtoms. If the soldiers are being theated for these injures we will soon hear from medics if it was a chem attack or not. Right now its too early to conclude. And again, the report said nothing about gas masks or gas attack. That's because OSCE doesn't jump to conclusions without evidence (they don't do any conclusions in general tho).

[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46994221]exactly this. I do not condone any actions the rebels or ukranians may or may not have done against citizens, nor any unnecessarily cruel treatments of enemy combatants on that battlefield. I'm just pointing out the irony of anyone from a country condemning anyone for doing something unjust when their country has or does do crimes just as bad or worse.[/QUOTE] Yes, because I personally deployed Agent Orange on the peoples on Vietnam myself. Oh wait no I wasn't even alive, yet I am still responsible and therefore have no room to criticize others. Just because someone's government makes a bad choice doesn't mean they are accountable.