Shelling of high school football field kills two boys in Donetsk
28 replies, posted
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/owJQMKV.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=AFP]DONETSK, Ukraine — The shelling of a high school in Ukraine’s rebel stronghold of Donetsk has chilled even the battle-hardened in this weary nation.
The killing of two teenagers as they were playing soccer after lunch Wednesday is a stark reminder that the cease-fire agreed upon in September has only really ever existed on paper. Four other students were wounded, according to Dr. Vladimir Voropayev, chief of the children’s trauma unit at the regional hospital in Donetsk.[/QUOTE]
[URL="http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/11/07/shelling-of-high-school-soccer-field-kills-two-boys-just-another-day-in-so-called-ukraine-cease-fire/"]Source[/URL].
wtf
I really hope this was incompetence on Ukraine's part and not malice.
i doubt this was selectively targeted, but really just a mistake
[QUOTE=SonicHitman;46437372]i doubt this was selectively targeted, but really just a mistake[/QUOTE]
Mistake is really a poor choice of word for artillery shells hitting something. They're not all that accurate, it's just what happens when you lob 'em into a city without much care.
Would like to see some proof it was actually the Ukrainian side but I guess it is tradition to jump the gun and instantly assume it was the Ukrainians because the separatists can do no evil
[QUOTE=lilgrill;46437637]Would like to see some proof it was actually the Ukrainian side but I guess it is tradition to jump the gun and instantly assume it was the Ukrainians because the separatists can do no evil[/QUOTE]
Why would the rebels shell a town they control?
[QUOTE=helifreak;46437652]Why would the rebels shell a town they control?[/QUOTE]
Why would the rebels shoot down a passenger aircraft over an area they control? Oh wait, they blamed the Ukrainian army for that too
[QUOTE=lilgrill;46437661]Why would the rebels shoot down a passenger aircraft over an area they control? Oh wait, they blamed the Ukrainian army for that too[/QUOTE]
nice strawman there.
you still haven't answered why the separatists would shell a city they control. however, since there is currently a skirmish between the separatists who are from the city, and the ukraine army at donetsk airport it is more than likely it's the ukraine army attempting to shell the separatist forces.
you know, it is okay to accept that the side you support has made mistakes.
[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46437682]you know, it is okay to accept that the side you support has made mistakes.[/QUOTE]
try telling that to the other guys, we have.
anyways, enough of that silliness, it's always sad when civilians get caught in a war that isn't theirs, especially children.
[editline]8th November 2014[/editline]
especially when it's your own army
[QUOTE=MrBunneh;46437682]nice strawman there.
you still haven't answered why the separatists would shell a city they control. however, since there is currently a skirmish between the separatists who are from the city, and the ukraine army at donetsk airport it is more than likely it's the ukraine army attempting to shell the separatist forces.
you know, it is okay to accept that the side you support has made mistakes.[/QUOTE]
I have not denied the Ukrainian army has made mistakes but the separatists suffering collateral damage due to their own actions and using that to discredit the Ukrainian army is not far fetched as they have done it before.
-snip, pui-
[QUOTE=helifreak;46437652]Why would the rebels shell a town they control?[/QUOTE]
Unless there's solid evidence for the Ukrainian army doing this, which the article doesn't imply, nothing is certain, and everything is deniable - just like the green men were, really. Also Mainila was a thing, considering some preliminary data (the source of which is unknown) allegedly indicates the shelling came from separatist-controlled territory. But let's not assume things, at this point everything could be lies.
The separatists could also be purposefully drawing counter-artillery fire into residential areas to fuel the propaganda machine, as the article implies residents complaining about the rebels firing their guns close to homes sometimes. Or it could be sheer incompetence on their part not even taking the counter-fire into account as they fire on Ukrainian positions, violating the ceasefire themselves, with the civvies paying for it. Or it could be sheer incompetence on the Ukrainian's part, indiscriminately shelling everything, which I doubt - if not for a lack of consideration for the lives of the locals, they at least know they need to play the PR game well, and shelling random people is not how it's done. Or it could be a third, currently unknown element/disillusioned troops trying to take matters into their own hands and thus fuelling controversy, willingly or not.
You see, there are so many potential allegations, very little backing them up, and propaganda is the order of the day. You can't jump on the Ukrainians with something as simple as "the rebels wouldn't shell themselves" when history has proven humans have done worse in a powerplay maneuver to gain the moral high ground. And in the light of a lack of concrete evidence for either side doing it, or until such info is made available (having been meticulously filtered and edited to suit the agenda no doubt), we can do no more. It's the sad reality of modern war.
[QUOTE=SonicHitman;46437372]i doubt this was selectively targeted, but really just a mistake[/QUOTE]
It's not a mistake, but it's not selectively targeted. They just shell areas and they know the risks, this is also not the first civillian casualty due to this so there is no way they don't know what they are doing.
[editline]8th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46437906]Unless there's solid evidence for the Ukrainian army doing this, which the article doesn't imply, nothing is certain, and everything is deniable - just like the green men were, really. Also Mainila was a thing, considering some preliminary data (the source of which is unknown) allegedly indicates the shelling came from separatist-controlled territory. But let's not assume things, at this point everything could be lies.
The separatists could also be purposefully drawing counter-artillery fire into residential areas to fuel the propaganda machine, as the article implies residents complaining about the rebels firing their guns close to homes sometimes. Or it could be sheer incompetence on their part not even taking the counter-fire into account as they fire on Ukrainian positions, violating the ceasefire themselves, with the civvies paying for it. Or it could be sheer incompetence on the Ukrainian's part, indiscriminately shelling everything, which I doubt - if not for a lack of consideration for the lives of the locals, they at least know they need to play the PR game well, and shelling random people is not how it's done. Or it could be a third, currently unknown element/disillusioned troops trying to take matters into their own hands and thus fuelling controversy, willingly or not.
You see, there are so many potential allegations, very little backing them up, and propaganda is the order of the day. You can't jump on the Ukrainians with something as simple as "the rebels wouldn't shell themselves" when history has proven humans have done worse in a powerplay maneuver to gain the moral high ground. And in the light of a lack of concrete evidence for either side doing it, or until such info is made available (having been meticulously filtered and edited to suit the agenda no doubt), we can do no more. It's the sad reality of modern war.[/QUOTE]
Dude Donetsk has been shelled by Ukrainian artillery for three fucking months non stop with enough evidence.
My grandma personally saw a Ukrainian GRAD fire towards Donetsk and shell flew right above her village.
If you think rebels were shelling Donetsk for three months without anyone noticing and if you think there was no evidence then you are outright dellusional, especially considering the fact that rebels didn't even have artillery until the last phase of the civil war (or didn't use it).
You guys can call me a Russian apologist and all that, but apparently Ukrainian apologists are a thing too.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46437937]It's not a mistake, but it's not selectively targeted. They just shell areas and they know the risks, this is also not the first civillian casualty due to this so there is no way they don't know what they are doing.
[editline]8th November 2014[/editline]
Dude Donetsk has been shelled by Ukrainian artillery for three fucking months non stop with enough evidence.
My grandma personally saw a Ukrainian GRAD fire towards Donetsk and shell flew right above her village.
If you think rebels were shelling Donetsk for three months without anyone noticing and if you think there was no evidence then you are outright dellusional, especially considering the fact that rebels didn't even have artillery until the last phase of the civil war (or didn't use it).
You guys can call me a Russian apologist and all that, but apparently Ukrainian apologists are a thing too.[/QUOTE]
I repeat, since nobody of the opposing viewpoint wants to see anything but vitriol apparently - there are so many possible events and potential perpetrators that none of us, not even your grandmother who is apparently a specialist analyst on deducing the precise origin, mark and make of ballistic weaponry even midflight, can know what is right and what is wrong, and I will not pretend to know otherwise.
I don't understand you, MuffinZerg, you keep tossing aside cases of alleged Russian activity, claiming precisely the same lack of evidence and deniability as I just did, but when the Ukrainians are shrouded by a mist of uncertainty, you're all quite quick to jump on them with cynical rhetoric and blame.
[QUOTE=helifreak;46437652]Why would the rebels shell a town they control?[/QUOTE]
To blame the Ukrainian side?
To indoctrinate the people around it that the Ukraine government are super nazis?
A soccer field is not really much use to them anyway.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;46438115]Look, if you find him biased, then hear it from me once again.
Ukraine has been shelling the city for 3 months, we know that.
A shell has hit a high school and killed 2 teenagers, we learned that here.
Now , combine these two facts within a cause and effect statement. It is crystal clear who killed those boys.
They weren't intentionally targeted, but Ukrainian Army was well aware of the risks while they were mindlessly tossing shells to the city.[/QUOTE]
The seperatists have been shelling residential areas from the start.
[QUOTE=just-a-boy;46438105]I repeat, since nobody of the opposing viewpoint wants to see anything but vitriol apparently - there are so many possible events and potential perpetrators that none of us, not even your grandmother who is apparently a specialist analyst on deducing the precise origin, mark and make of ballistic weaponry even midflight, can know what is right and what is wrong, and I will not pretend to know otherwise.
I don't understand you, MuffinZerg, you keep tossing aside cases of alleged Russian activity, claiming precisely the same lack of evidence and deniability as I just did, but when the Ukrainians are shrouded by a mist of uncertainty, you're all quite quick to jump on them with cynical rhetoric and blame.[/QUOTE]
I am not saying anybody is right or wrong. Imo everybody is wrong with the Ukraine crisis.
But you can't deny Ukrainians shelled Donetsk. You can see a lot of video evidence. Even vice news can prove that. That not to mention Russian media video reports.
[editline]8th November 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46438125]
The seperatists have been shelling residential areas from the start.[/QUOTE]
How? When? Why?
Please provide us a source on that.
Like, what's the point? The rebels were on the defensive since the start of the war. All they could shell were enemy troops. They simply had no oportunity to shell a residental area because they controlled the residental areas themselves.
Why would they shell the cities they control and the city their troops are in? That's literally shelling themselves.
I know "why would they do it" is not proof, but "to blame the Ukrainian side" is not proof either.
[QUOTE=Ghost656;46438125]The seperatists have been shelling residential areas from the start.[/QUOTE]
They actually have not, but they have and there is proof if you look, of them firing artillery [b]in[/b] residential areas. What happens when you fire artillery at a military force? You're gonna get return fire. And if you fired in a residential area, that residential area is going to get (unintentionally) razed because of the fact that well, there's shells coming from this spot, what do we do? Just sit and let more shells hit you, or chuck a couple back at them?
It's literally the shittest thing I've seen.
How about we wait for some information that proves something, rather that throw shit at either side?
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46439369]How about we wait for some information that proves something, rather that throw shit at either side?[/QUOTE]
Why were you saying " damn rebels/russians " and not that when MH-17 got shot down?
Double standarts.
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46439429]Why were you saying " damn rebels/russians " and not that when MH-17 got shot down?
Double standarts.[/QUOTE]
Because there's lots of proof they did it
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;46439437]Because there's lots of proof they did it[/QUOTE]
How about we wait for some information that proves something, rather that throw shit at either side?
[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;46439447]How about we wait for some information that proves something, rather that throw shit at either side?[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqytsajYAww[/media]
Tell that to lifenews
If russia didn't condone the whole thing from the start we wouldnt be in this situation
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;46440022]If Gorbachev never abolished USSR we wouldnt be in this situation[/QUOTE]
If the Mongols hadn't let go of Russia none of this would have happened.
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