I thought there's already a genre for soulslike games. It's called action-RPG.
[QUOTE=Devil Traitor;52460894]I thought there's already a genre for soulslike games. It's called action-RPG.[/QUOTE]
I mean this whole discussion is gonna be a subjective mess but that's a very broad genre that may not be specific enough. The way sites like Steam uses tags and categories blurs the line between descriptors and genres in the first place though so like, it's not a super big deal.
To be frank, all these twists of "roguelike" are silly excuses. They are still all basically attributing an idea/mechanic to a single game. We need proper terms.
[QUOTE=Silikone;52460902]To be frank, all these twists of "roguelike" are silly excuses. They are still all basically attributing an idea/mechanic to a single game. We need proper terms.[/QUOTE]
Like roguelight? Basically a game that has a few mechanics from Rogue but not enough to really be justifiably called a roguelike.
[QUOTE=MrJazzy;52460909]Like roguelight? Basically a game that has a few mechanics from Rogue but not enough to really be justifiably called a roguelike.[/QUOTE]
Oh you mean a rogue-like-like-like-like?
[QUOTE=simkas;52460913]Oh you mean a rogue-like-like-like-like?[/QUOTE]
Pretty much
[QUOTE=Silikone;52460902]To be frank, all these twists of "roguelike" are silly excuses. They are still all basically attributing an idea/mechanic to a single game. We need proper terms.[/QUOTE]
If there's already a term people are using and understand, such as soulslike, why replace it?
[QUOTE=Scot;52460946]If there's already a term people are using and understand, such as soulslike, why replace it?[/QUOTE]
Because soulslike as a term has led to nothing but games that try to be near perfect clones of the Souls formula and mechanics rather than actually looking at what elements REALLY matter and doing something constructive and unique with them?
this was discussed in the video, its only 13 minutes long dude
Yeah! Why do people say "Souls-like" when they could say "tactical boss combat-oriented action RPG"!
Or why say "GTA-like" when you could simply say "vehicle-centered open-world criminal sandbox action game"?
:downs:
Who needs fancy descriptions? Just slap "Action Adventure" on it, like the good old days!
[QUOTE=Scot;52460946]If there's already a term people are using and understand, such as soulslike, why replace it?[/QUOTE]
Souls-like is just the modern Doom-clone. Eventually people will come up with a term that fits. Recently I've been calling them Stamina Action Games, since stamina management is a fairly large aspect of the core gameplay in all of them.
[QUOTE=Loadingue;52460970]Yeah! Why do people say "Souls-like" when they could say "tactical boss combat-oriented action RPG"!
Or why say "GTA-like" when you could simply say "vehicle-centered open-world criminal sandbox action game"?
:downs:[/QUOTE]
I mean, good job totally missing the point of the whole video? I don't understand why people are having a hard time pulling the core message out of this, it's pretty clear if you actually like pay attention.
If you can't see why 'vehicle-centered open-world criminal sandbox action game' is infinitely more restrictive on a creative level than 'open world sandbox game' (btw, that's actually what normal human beings call these types of games) then no one can really help you.
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;52460991]Souls-like is just the modern Doom-clone. Eventually people will come up with a term that fits. Recently I've been calling them Stamina Action Games, since stamina management is a fairly large aspect of the core gameplay in all of them.[/QUOTE]
We should call them Fatigue Action Games, kids love acronyms these days
[QUOTE=Loadingue;52460970]Yeah! Why do people say "Souls-like" when they could say "tactical boss combat-oriented action RPG"!
Or why say "GTA-like" when you could simply say "vehicle-centered open-world criminal sandbox action game"?
:downs:[/QUOTE]
you're stretching it.
haven't had the chance to finish the video yet, but my initial response to the prompt is no. pigeonholing works into a marginal "genre" is counterproductive as it ignores the important difference between being inspired and simply being derivative. it's fine to draw comparisons, but if you do only that without also highlighting the core differences and how those differences affect the work fundamentally, you're not making good criticism.
i'll update or respond to this once i've had a chance to finish watching.
[QUOTE=DOG-GY;52460995]you're stretching it.
haven't had the chance to finish the video yet, but my initial response to the prompt is no. pigeonholing works into a marginal "genre" is counterproductive as it ignores the important difference between being inspired and simply being derivative. it's fine to draw comparisons, but if you do only that without also highlighting the core differences and how those differences affect the work fundamentally, you're not making good criticism.
i'll update or respond to this once i've had a chance to finish watching.[/QUOTE]
That's basically the key message of the video by the end of it!
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;52460993]I mean, good job totally missing the point of the whole video? I don't understand why people are having a hard time pulling the core message out of this, it's pretty clear if you actually like pay attention.
If you can't see why 'vehicle-centered open-world criminal sandbox action game' is infinitely more restrictive on a creative level than 'open world sandbox game' (btw, that's actually what normal human beings call these types of games) then no one can really help you.
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
We should call them Fatigue Action Games, kids love acronyms these days[/QUOTE]
Wait, are there sandbox games without open worlds? I guess stuff like Sand Game fits that.
Usually I don't pay any mind to ratings but the fact people are just hopping into the thread to rate the OP dumb or disagree based on the title alone is incredibly stupid. A lot of people judge whether or not to spend their time watching a video based on how the majority reacts to it, and this is honestly a really good discussion that shouldn't be ignored purely because people can't be assed to watch a 13 minute video before giving their input
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=eatdembeanz;52460999]Wait, are there sandbox games without open worlds? I guess stuff like Sand Game fits that.[/QUOTE]
Besieged and Cortex Command are the first two titles that come to mind when I think of non open-world sandboxes, but I just got home from work so there are probably better examples out there I'm just missing
I'm happy to see Monolith get featured in this video, I've been following their progress for years now and to see it be released and shown in a video like this is pretty damn cool.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;52460993]I mean, good job totally missing the point of the whole video? I don't understand why people are having a hard time pulling the core message out of this, it's pretty clear if you actually like pay attention.
If you can't see why 'vehicle-centered open-world criminal sandbox action game' is infinitely more restrictive on a creative level than 'open world sandbox game' (btw, that's actually what normal human beings call these types of games) then no one can really help you.[/QUOTE]
My post wasn't about the video, it was my separated opinion on the subject.
Yes, what I said is more restrictive, but it also encompasses clearly what usually defines a "thing-like" for most people.
Saints Row is a clear GTA-like with the same characteristics I gave, but there can be some argument whether Red Dead Redemption is a GTA-like since it doesn't focus as much on vehicles and actively being a criminal.
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=eatdembeanz;52460999]Wait, are there sandbox games without open worlds? I guess stuff like Sand Game fits that.[/QUOTE]
Garry's Mod, obviously. And a lot more.
[QUOTE=Loadingue;52461020]My post wasn't about the video, it was my separated opinion on the subject.
Yes, what I said is more restrictive, but it also encompasses clearly what usually defines a "thing-like" for most people.
Saints Row is a clear GTA-like with the same characteristics I gave, but there can be some argument whether Red Dead Redemption is a GTA-like since it doesn't focus as much on vehicles and actively being a criminal.
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
Garry's Mod, obviously. And a lot more.[/QUOTE]
Your 'separated opinion on the subject' is exactly the kind of redundant, stagnant thinking that this video is trying to help people avoid.
No one says 'gta-like' for the same reason no one says 'doom-clone' anymore. It's a severely outdated term that comes from a more immature time in the gaming world.
[QUOTE=Loadingue;52460970]Yeah! Why do people say "Souls-like" when they could say "tactical boss combat-oriented action RPG"!
Or why say "GTA-like" when you could simply say "vehicle-centered open-world criminal sandbox action game"?
:downs:[/QUOTE]
Well, most GTA-like games aren't much like GTA at all, are they. Saints Row and Watch Dogs and especially Just Cause are quite different to GTA in tone and mechanics. The only thing uniting all these games is that you can explore an open world, shoot people and drive vehicles. Which is exactly the sort of thing the video is talking about, these games aren't similar enough to GTA to be called GTA-like or GTA-clones
I guess I can't see the point of your original post at all. You claim it's a separated personal view but if that's the case then the post only serves to make yourself look silly for apparently no reason at all?
At least if you were trying to argue against the video in some way there could be a constructive discussion.
[QUOTE=Devil Traitor;52460894]I thought there's already a genre for soulslike games. It's called action-RPG.[/QUOTE]
Diablo, Path of Exile and Viktor Vran are Action RPGs.
[QUOTE=Antimuffin;52461050]Diablo, Path of Exile and Viktor Vran are Action RPGs.[/QUOTE]
But those are isometric dungeon crawlers!
[QUOTE=eatdembeanz;52461055]But those are isometric dungeon crawlers![/QUOTE]
Isometric Dungeon Crawling Hack n' Slash Loot-a-thon Fantasy Adventure Games, thank you -very- much
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52461046]Well, most GTA-like games aren't much like GTA at all, are they. Saints Row and Watch Dogs and especially Just Cause are quite different to GTA in tone and mechanics. The only thing uniting all these games is that you can explore an open world, shoot people and drive vehicles. Which is exactly the sort of thing the video is talking about, these games aren't similar enough to GTA to be called GTA-like or GTA-clones[/QUOTE]
But this kind of semantics was never about what those terms actually mean in concrete; it's about what they represent in the minds of people. People say Souls-like because you know exactly what it means from the moment you hear it, even if it's not a game so close to the real thing that one might think the same devs made it. That's not the point at all, it's about understanding the intention.
Watch Dogs and Saints Row are clearly GTA-like, especially since they were both created to be direct competitors to Rockstar's GTA games. Saints Row 1 didn't have the humor of the sequels, and was made solely to bank on GTA San Andreas' success. That's why it's a GTA clone. The sequels went for a more comical and over-the-top script that made it different from GTA and appreciated differently, but they still remain GTA clones at heart, meant to compete and appeal to the GTA audience. That's why we talk about GTA-likes.
Realistically though, the best place to put the 'soulslike' genre would be under Action RPG.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;52461044]Your 'separated opinion on the subject' is exactly the kind of redundant, stagnant thinking that this video is trying to help people avoid.
No one says 'gta-like' for the same reason no one says 'doom-clone' anymore. It's a severely outdated term that comes from a more immature time in the gaming world.[/QUOTE]
Words do become dated after a while, Doom-clones isn't used much because FPS's have evolved into so many different directions that it didn't mean anything anymore at a point. But don't you see that it's for this reason that "Doom-clone" used to mean something: back when it [I]defined[/I] what an action game is.
Game devs take inspiration from one another, it's always about using the ideas of a game or making something that looks like it. As long as a game is the [I]direct[/I] inspiration for another, instead of a whole genre, then the use of "thing-like" terms is justified.
[editline]12th July 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;52461061]Realistically though, the best place to put the 'soulslike' genre would be under Action RPG.[/QUOTE]
Action-RPG is such a vast genre that it includes Skyrim, Bioshock, even Spec Ops The Line as some would argue. It's definitely part of it, but it's its own successful thing inside it, with its own tropes and fans.
You tell me Nioh is an action-RPG, I'll buy it in a second. You tell me it's a Souls-like, I'm not touching it. (Ignore my opinion on Souls-like games, it's the intention that counts here)
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;52461004]Usually I don't pay any mind to ratings but the fact people are just hopping into the thread to rate the OP dumb or disagree based on the title alone is incredibly stupid. A lot of people judge whether or not to spend their time watching a video based on how the majority reacts to it, and this is honestly a really good discussion that shouldn't be ignored purely because people can't be assed to watch a 13 minute video before giving their input
[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming people are following the thought process of
-"Do we need a soulslike genre?"
-"No, we don't"
-Therefore disagree
This video reminds me of those internet arguments about Super Smash Bros being a fighting game. Some argued a better term for it would be something like "party fighter" or "mascot fighter", because it would not only describe Smash, but other very similar titles. Like that medicore PS All Stars Battle Royale or that pretty good Melee-like game Rivals of Eather.
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