Israel's enemies to support protest movements and peaceful resistance
70 replies, posted
[quote]JERUSALEM—Hamas and Hezbollah, groups that have long battled Israel with violent tactics, have begun to embrace civil disobedience, protest marches, lawsuits and boycotts—tactics they once dismissed.
For decades, Palestinian statehood aspirations seemed to lurch between negotiations and armed resistance against Israel. But a small cadre of Palestinian activists has long argued that nonviolence, in the tradition of the American civil rights movement, would be far more effective.
Officials from Hamas, the militant group that controls the Gaza Strip, point to the recent Israeli raid on a Gaza-bound flotilla, in which Israeli troops killed nine activists, as evidence there is more to gain by getting Israel to draw international condemnation through its own use of force, rather than by attacking the country.
"When we use violence, we help Israel win international support," said Aziz Dweik, a leading Hamas lawmaker in the West Bank. "The Gaza flotilla has done more for Gaza than 10,000 rockets."
Hamas and Hezbollah, the Islamist movement in Lebanon that has been fighting Israel since the early 1980s, haven't renounced violence and both groups continue to amass arms. Hamas still abides by a charter that calls for Israel's destruction; Palestinian youths still hurl rocks at Israeli soldiers across the West Bank separation barrier. And the flotilla incident didn't fall into conventional standards of peaceful protest: While most activists passively resisted Israeli soldiers, some on the boat where protesters were killed attacked commandos as they boarded, according to video footage released by Israel and soldiers' accounts.
The incident triggered international condemnation and plunged Israel into one of its worst diplomatic crises in years. In response, Israel said it would take some steps to ease its blockade on the Gaza Strip.
After the incident, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah called on supporters to participate in the next flotilla bound for Gaza. Ghaleb Abu Zeinab, a member of the Hezbollah politburo in Beirut, said it was the first time Mr. Nasrallah had forcefully and publicly embraced such tactics against Israel.
"We saw that this kind of resistance has driven the Israelis into a big plight," he said. Organizers in Lebanon say they have two ships ready to sail, but no departure date has been set.
A senior Israeli foreign ministry official said Israel recognizes "changes in the tactical thinking of Hamas and other resistance movements." The official said the groups are no less committed to Israel's destruction, but have simply concluded they are more likely to defeat Israel by encouraging its international isolation instead of through military force.
"People who are provoking violence are using peaceful protest as a cover," said Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev.
The Palestinian protest movement picked up steam in the past year, spearheaded by activists in the West Bank and a coalition of pro-Palestinian international human-rights groups.
The absence of peace talks for much of the past two years has pushed the Palestinian Authority leadership to embrace the movement as well. Dominated by members of Hamas's more moderate rival Fatah, they long advocated a negotiated settlement with Israel and dismissed popular protest campaigns.
But in January, Palestinian Prime Minister Salam Fayyad launched a campaign to boycott products produced in Israeli settlements and to plant trees in areas declared off limits by Israel. In April, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas outlawed settlement products in Palestinian Authority-controlled areas.
Hamas's turnaround has been more striking, said Mustapha Barghouti, a prominent Palestinian advocate for nonviolent resistance. "When we used to call for protests, and marches, and boycotts and anything called nonviolence, Hamas used these sexist insults against us. They described it as women's struggle," Mr. Barghouti said. That changed in 2008, he said, after the first aid ship successfully ran the Israeli blockade of Gaza.
"Hamas has started to appreciate just how effective this can be," Mr. Barghouti said.
Hamas has started organizing its own peaceful marches into the Israeli-controlled buffer zone along the Gaza border and supported lawsuits against Israeli officials in European courts. Hamas says it has ramped up support for a committee dedicated to sponsoring similar protests in Gaza.
Mr. Dweik, the Hamas lawmaker, recently began turning up at weekly protests against Israel's West Bank barrier.
Salah Bardawil, a Hamas lawmaker in Gaza City, says Hamas has come to appreciate the importance of international support for its legitimacy as a representative of the Palestinian people and its fight against Israeli occupation, and has adapted its tactics. Hamas hasn't claimed responsibility for a suicide bombing in years and now denounces the tactic as counterproductive. Since an Israeli military incursion into the territory in December 2008-January 2009, it has also halted rocket attacks into Israel.
"Hamas used to believe [international support] was just empty words," said Mr. Bardawil. "Today it is very interested in international delegations … and in bringing Israeli officials to justice through legal proceedings."[/quote]
[img]http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/WO-AB594_MIDEAS_G_20100701190352.jpg[/img]
Hamas and Hezbollah terrorists on a boat. Hopefully if the IDF shows more restraint, people will have more of a reason to protest peacefully rather than having to turn to violence.
Oh, please...
Really good move on Hamas' and Hezbollah's part.
They just found out that launching rockets make them seem like the bad guys :v:
Yeah, nice PR move.
"Hamas still abides by a charter that calls for Israel's destruction"
Regardless of the main article's point, which is good, I still don't feel optimistic about this as long as they don't change their charter.
[editline]01:07AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=starpluck;23161402]
They just found out that launching rockets make them the bad guys :v:[/QUOTE]
Fixed.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161446]
Fixed.[/QUOTE]
So when Israel launches rockets, they're the good guys?
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161446]
[editline]01:07AM[/editline]
Fixed.[/QUOTE]
BurnEmDown find me a single non-violent occupation in history especially one that has been going on for 40+ years.
[QUOTE=Jund;23161482]So when Israel launches rockets, they're the good guys?[/QUOTE]
Wait what? It isn't the act of launching rockets that makes anyone bad or good, but the context in which the rockets were launched (to where, at who and why) that determines that.
[QUOTE]BurnEmDown find me a single non-violent occupation in history especially one that has been going on for 40+ years.[/QUOTE]
Find me a country that was attacked by a quasi-state with rockets and soldiers and didn't retaliate. See? I can play this 'lets oversimplfy things and pretend it's true' game. Now it's time to grow up.
[QUOTE=Jund;23161482]So when Israel launches rockets, they're the good guys?[/QUOTE]
If they're launching them against people who launched rockets first, yes.
[editline]01:13AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sporkfire;23161519]BurnEmDown find me a single non-violent occupation in history especially one that has been going on for 40+ years.[/QUOTE]
They continued to launch rockets even when they weren't occupied.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23161562]Wait what? It isn't the act of launching rockets that makes anyone bad or good, but the context in which the rockets were launched (to where, at who and why) that determines that.[/QUOTE]
Hamas launches rockets at Israeli civilians = terrorists and bad guys
Israel launches rockets at Palestinian civilians = good guys(?)
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161578]
They continued to launch rockets even when they weren't occupied.[/QUOTE]
I'm almost certain the West Bank has been under Israeli control since '67.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161578]If they're launching them against people who launched rockets first, yes.[/QUOTE]
They don't give two shits about collateral damage. Or should I tell you again how many Palestinians they managed to kill in a single day, hm?
[QUOTE=Jund;23161593]Hamas launches rockets at Israeli civilians = terrorists and bad guys
Israel launches rockets at Palestinian civilians = good guys(?)[/QUOTE]
I specifically said that Israel launched them at the people who first launched rockets, as in, the terrorists.
[QUOTE=Jund;23161593]Hamas launches rockets at Israeli civilians = terrorists and bad guys
Israel launches rockets at Palestinian civilians = good guys(?)[/QUOTE]
Again, the differnce is the intention. Is Israel launching rockets into Gaza Strip in order to kill civilians? I don't think it does. Therefore you can call the Israelis 'the good guys'... although I wouldn't suggest this because it's plain dumb.
[QUOTE=Billiam;23161635]I'm almost certain the West Bank has been under Israeli control since '67.[/QUOTE]
No rockets have been fired from the West Bank, we're talking about the Gaza Strip.
Israel is in peace talks, Palestinian "activists" are beginning to promote non-violent measures, this can only mean one thing.
The rapture is coming.
[QUOTE=Jund;23161637]They don't give two shits about collateral damage. Or should I tell you again how many Palestinians they managed to kill in a single day, hm?[/QUOTE]
Considering it's the 6th most crowded place in the world, the tactics employed by the Hamas using human shields, firing from civilian homes and using mosques and schools as weapon stockpiles, you should be surprised that only around 1000 civilians died in the few weeks of the conflict.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161578]If they're launching them against people who launched rockets first, yes.
[editline]01:13AM[/editline]
They continued to launch rockets even when they weren't occupied.[/QUOTE]
It's still deemed an occupation, by the international community especially when Israel essentially controls what comes in and out of Gaza. Israel controls Gaza militarily, it's an occupation.
Again, find me a non-violent occupation.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161659]No rockets have been fired from the West Bank, we're talking about the Gaza Strip.[/QUOTE]
I'm pretty sure the Palestinians seeks an unoccupied West Bank, hence violent occupation.
Reminds me of the beginning of "The Sum of All Fears" by Tom Clancy. Basically Muslim protesters in Israel get gunned down with rubber bullets and their leader gets shot with a pistol causing Israel to look terrible and makes them the bad guys.
[QUOTE=ohadje;23161655]Again, the differnce is the intention. Is Israel launching rockets into Gaza Strip in order to kill civilians? I don't think it does. Therefore you can call the Israelis 'the good guys'... although I wouldn't suggest this because it's plain dumb.[/QUOTE]
That's fucking retarded.
If I nuke the entire world under the claim that I'm trying to get rid of the bad guys, then I'm good all of a sudden?
[QUOTE=Sporkfire;23161698]It's still deemed an occupation, by the international community especially when Israel essentially controls what comes in and out of Gaza. Israel controls Gaza militarily, it's an occupation.
Again, find me a non-violent occupation.[/QUOTE]
No, it isn't an occupation, it's a sea blocade.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161684]Considering it's the 6th most crowded place in the world, the tactics employed by the Hamas using human shields, firing from civilian homes and using mosques and schools as weapon stockpiles, you should be surprised that only around 1000 civilians died in the few weeks of the conflict.[/QUOTE]
I find it fucking horrible that you're okay with that.
They kill thousands of innocents to get at only a handful of terrorists. Disgusting.
[QUOTE=Sporkfire;23161698]It's still deemed an occupation, by the international community especially when Israel essentially controls what comes in and out of Gaza. Israel controls Gaza militarily, it's an occupation.
Again, find me a non-violent occupation.[/QUOTE]
So they controlled the goods in order to minimize the Hamas' access to weapons and rockets, anything wrong with that?
And I don't see how is the non-violent occupation thing related.
[QUOTE=Billiam;23161716]I'm pretty sure the Palestinians seeks an unoccupied West Bank, hence violent occupation.[/QUOTE]
But we're talking about Gaza here. It's like if you claim that the West Bank barrier is inhumane and stuff, and say that this is a reason to remove the Gaza wall, it's unrelated.
[QUOTE=Jund;23161740]That's fucking retarded.
If I nuke the entire world under the claim that I'm trying to get rid of the bad guys, then I'm good all of a sudden?[/QUOTE]
Israel knows that civilians will get killed when these missiles are fired, but it tried to reduce the amount of civilians getting killed. It's unavoidable that civilians will die (in any war, as well...).
[QUOTE]They kill thousands of innocents to get at only a handful of terrorists. Disgusting.[/QUOTE]
Thousands? lol
[QUOTE=ohadje;23161745]No, it isn't an occupation, it's a sea blocade.[/QUOTE]
It's general closure of the whole country, when everything being flown into your country is regulated by a neighbor you're suppose to be independent from and supplies essential to survival are being blocked it's still cause to be violent.
[QUOTE=Jund;23161777]I find it fucking horrible that you're okay with that.
They kill thousands of innocents to get at only a handful of terrorists. Disgusting.[/QUOTE]
I'm happy that ONLY a thousand of innocents got killed. Do you have any idea how many people usually die in wars like that, when the enemy is hiding in cities and using its own civilians as human shields?
[editline]01:24AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Billiam;23161817]It's general closure of the whole country, when everything being flown into your country is regulated by a neighbor you're suppose to be independent from and supplies essential to survival are being blocked it's still cause to be violent.[/QUOTE]
When rockets are fired at you from your neighbor you're supposed to be able to defend yourself.
Edit: and essential surviving supplies were never banned or restricted.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161778]So they controlled the goods in order to minimize the Hamas' access to weapons and rockets, anything wrong with that?[/QUOTE]
The Gaza Strip cannot produce anything under its own power, they're too small and they have too little the resources.
When you block essentials like concrete, medical equipment, and food stuffs in the name of security you bet your ass there's gonna be a shit load of animosity.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161778]And I don't see how is the non-violent occupation thing related.[/QUOTE]
When people are occupied against their will, they're gonna' get angry.
When they rebel that doesn't make them the bad guys.
[QUOTE=BurnEmDown;23161778]So they controlled the goods in order to minimize the Hamas' access to weapons and rockets, anything wrong with that?
And I don't see how is the non-violent occupation thing related.[/QUOTE]
It's entirely related, because you're saying that violent resistance makes you the bad guy, even during an occupation or when you're right to self-determination is being restricted. So the Tibetans' were bad, the Founding Father's were bad, the Irish were bad, basically anyone who fought for freedom and independence.
So I'm asking you find me a non-violent occupation.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.