Commercial Pilots Rely Too Much on Automation, had trouble flying planes manually, Panel Says - Polidicks

[quote]Commercial airline pilots have become so dependent on automation that poor manual flying skills and failure to master the latest changes in cockpit technology pose the greatest hazards to passengers, an international panel of air-safety experts warns. A soon-to-be-released study commissioned by the Federal Aviation Administration determined, among other things, that "pilots sometimes rely too much on automated systems and may be reluctant to intervene" or switch them off in unusual or risky circumstances, according to a draft reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. While over the decades automation played a big part in making flying today safer than ever in the U.S. and globally, the draft highlights some downsides. The study found that some pilots "lack sufficient or in-depth knowledge and skills" to properly control their plane's trajectory, partly because "current training methods, training devices and the time allotted for training" may be inadequate to fully master advanced automated systems. Among the accidents and certain categories of incidents that were examined, roughly two-thirds of the pilots either had difficulty manually flying planes or made mistakes using flight computers. Relying too heavily on computer-driven flight decks—and problems that result when crews fail to properly keep up with changes in levels of automation—now pose the biggest threats to airliner safety world-wide, the study concluded. The results can range from degraded manual-flying skills to poor decision-making to possible erosion of confidence among some aviators when automation abruptly malfunctions or disconnects during an emergency. The report is the first of its kind to meld historic data from accidents and incidents with real-time observations of working pilots, according to people familiar with the details. Instead of just focusing on training and cockpit design, the study takes a broader approach to consider pilot interactions with air-traffic controllers and other operational issues. The observers found that in most instances, pilots were able to detect and correct automation slip-ups before they could cascade into more serious errors. But when pilots "have to actually hand fly" aircraft, according to one section of the narrative describing interviews with trainers, "they are accustomed to watching things happen…instead of being proactive." Pilots losing control of aircraft, because of poor situational awareness or inability to grasp what their instruments and automated systems are telling them, has been identified as the primary cause in a number of crashes globally in recent years. Pilot lapses and automation were implicated in the high-profile 2009 crash of an Air France AF.FR +0.73% Airbus A330 that stalled and went down in the Atlantic Ocean, killing all 228 aboard, just as they are suspected of causing last July's crash of an Asiana Airlines Inc. 020560.SE +0.10% Boeing BA +1.68% 777 during a botched landing in San Francisco. The 277-page report—written by a team of industry, labor, academic and government officials—details the hazards of excessive pilot dependence on increasingly automated and complex flight decks.[/quote] [url]http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304439804579204202526288042?mod=e2tw[/url]

I fear this happening to cars with automatic breaking and crash avoidance.

Yeah well that's because the pressure on commercial pilots is so high to produce perfect records and even more flights in less time while being payed less money being a commercial pilot would be the best job in the world imo if the airlines weren't so shitty to work with

[QUOTE=paindoc;42909788]Yeah well that's because the pressure on commercial pilots is so high to produce perfect records and even more flights in less time while being payed less money being a commercial pilot would be the best job in the world imo if the airlines weren't so shitty to work with[/QUOTE] I imagine being a commercial pilot as being a fancy trucker who has to transport loud, smelly, self important animals across the country in a giant tin toothpaste tube. While he's trying to do this, he's getting told that he has to go faster, stop here, here and here to unload and reload, and fuck you if you think you're getting any sleep. So in summation: I think it's a shitty, under appreciated trucking job.

[QUOTE=paindoc;42909788]Yeah well that's because the pressure on commercial pilots is so high to produce perfect records and even more flights in less time while being payed less money being a commercial pilot would be the best job in the world imo if the airlines weren't so shitty to work with[/QUOTE] Having known and worked with several commercial pilots, they said that the pay was shit, the hours were shit, the standards were too high in some places and dangerously low in others, but seeing the world was beautiful. Also, it's monotonous as fuck to hold straight and level at 38,000 for eight fucking hours.

No wonder the pilots are "reluctant to intervene." They would get hung out to dry by their airliners if they had to turn off an automated system, and there was a fuckup*. *can be anything from crash landing, to a passenger spilling some drink on them because of mild turbulence.

Not much of a surprise, honestly. Also not something the FAA would have much trouble solving, thankfully. Mandating the appropriate amount of training and requiring commercial pilots prove they can handle their aircraft with the absolute minimum electronic aids running(IE little more than the radio, engine control computers, and hydraulic assists) would nip this in the bud.[QUOTE=Cmx;42909761]I fear this happening to cars with automatic breaking and crash avoidance.[/QUOTE] It already does. There's been quite a few studies over the years that show ABS tends to make drivers riskier than they would be without it. The more automation we give someone to help them do something the less responsibility they take in whatever it is they're doing, and as a result, their ability to actually do that something drops like a fucking rock. It's why I'm so staunchly against driver's aids/self-driving cars.

A lot of people think commercial piloting is a job that pays well. It does pay well but only after about 10-15 years of flying. You seriously start out making minimum wage 20-30k a year. They don't get paid enough to do anything.

[QUOTE=Cmx;42909761]I fear this happening to cars with automatic breaking and crash avoidance.[/QUOTE] thats why we should ban all automation of vehicles

[QUOTE=paindoc;42909788]Yeah well that's because the pressure on commercial pilots is so high to produce perfect records and even more flights in less time while being payed less money being a commercial pilot would be the best job in the world imo if the airlines weren't so shitty to work with[/QUOTE] if you enjoy staring at this all day, I guess [quote][IMG]http://crispme.com/wp-content/uploads/Clouds_by_sa_ki.png?pass[/IMG][/quote]

[QUOTE=valkery;42909827]I imagine being a commercial pilot as being a fancy trucker who has to transport loud, smelly, self important animals across the country in a giant tin toothpaste tube. While he's trying to do this, he's getting told that he has to go faster, stop here, here and here to unload and reload, and fuck you if you think you're getting any sleep. So in summation: I think it's a shitty, under appreciated trucking job.[/QUOTE] you get paid a fuck ton though

Its hard to get into, but once you're hired for a major airliner you'll be good. I didnt know getting paid six-figures was considered being "under paid" for hitting a few buttons.

I read an AMA on reddit where a pilot said he only made about 30k a year. They pretty much said its the same difficulty as driving a bus with how much automation there is.

[QUOTE=areolop;42913652]Its hard to get into, but once you're hired for a major airliner you'll be good. I didnt know getting paid six-figures was considered being "under paid" for hitting a few buttons.[/QUOTE] Why comment if you have no clue what you're on about? Pilot salaries aren't 6 figures unless you're an FO or above for a major airline, even FO's will only just touch the 6 figure mark. SO's with major carriers and anyone in a regional carrier is going to be well under 6 figures, all while paying off huge flight training debts. It takes over a decade to get into a major carrier in most cases, simply because you need to build the hours. Regional pilots are definitely underpaid, and this is especially prevent in the USA. There was that great documentary I remember seeing years ago where many pilots who worked for regional airlines were on food stamps - think it was by Michael Moore.

[QUOTE=Tony;42913684]Why comment if you have no clue what you're on about? Pilot salaries aren't 6 figures unless you're an FO for a major airline. SO's with major carriers and anyone in a regional carrier is going to be well under 6 figures, all while paying off huge flight training debts. It takes over a decade to get into a major carrier in most cases, simply because you need to build the hours.[/QUOTE] Median pay was $92.xxk a year. Hardly under 100k

[QUOTE=areolop;42913700]Median pay was $92.xxk a year. Hardly under 100k[/QUOTE] Why not post a source with that? It's such a blank claim otherwise. A 2 second search pulls this up for me: [url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoglia/2013/07/31/what-do-entry-level-regional-pilots-and-mcdonalds-workers-have-in-common/[/url] [quote]According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, citing data from the Airline Pilots Association, International, starting pay for most airline pilots is approximately $20,000.[/quote] Another one: [url]http://blogs.wsj.com/middleseat/2009/06/16/pilot-pay-want-to-know-how-much-your-captain-earns/[/url] [quote]Congress expressed shock and dismay to learn that regional airline pilots start at very low salaries after the NTSB said the co-pilot on the Colgan Air commuter plane that crashed near Buffalo on Feb. 12 earned only $16,000 a year. [b](The company later said she earned $23,900.)[/b][/quote] The documentary I was talking about by Michael Moore: [video=youtube;tKQJx3L_CDQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKQJx3L_CDQ[/video] Capt. Sully himself makes it perfectly clear about the state of the industry.

[QUOTE=LVL FACTORY;42913553]thats why we should ban all automation of vehicles[/QUOTE] Nah, I would rather ban [B]bad[/B] drivers from non-fully automatic cars, once these are accessible enough. Make the exams strict and make everyone retake them every 5 years. Whoever has trouble with them will be driven around by a robot.

[QUOTE=valkery;42909827]I imagine being a commercial pilot as being a fancy trucker who has to transport loud, smelly, self important animals across the country in a giant tin toothpaste tube. While he's trying to do this, he's getting told that he has to go faster, stop here, here and here to unload and reload, and fuck you if you think you're getting any sleep. So in summation: I think it's a shitty, under appreciated trucking job.[/QUOTE] Pilots fly because they love flying. In addition, they see the world, and captains get paid £100k+ Yes, you get told where to fly to and land because most passengers board a plane expecting to know where they are going, not to go to wherever the pilot feels like Also, the article is talking about instruments, not "autopilot" for anyone who is still under the impression pilots "only fly for 3 minutes per flight thanks to autopilot". Autopilot requires complex setup for each phase, sometimes it's easier to do it manually In addition, there are strict rules on sleep for pilots: [url]http://aviation.about.com/od/Regulations/a/Faa-Final-Rule-Pilot-Duty-And-Rest-Requirements.htm[/url] As for "going faster" I don't think you understand how commercial airlines work...captains can decide to speed up if fuel and the flight plan allows (particularly if they feel they can make up lost time on the ground), but it's not as if there's some angry guy on the ground telling them to speed up I don't know about you, but the "smelly animals" are usually isolated from the cockpit, too

[QUOTE=valkery;42909827]I imagine being a commercial pilot as being a fancy trucker who has to transport loud, smelly, self important animals across the country in a giant tin toothpaste tube. While he's trying to do this, he's getting told that he has to go faster, stop here, here and here to unload and reload, and fuck you if you think you're getting any sleep. So in summation: I think it's a shitty, under appreciated trucking job.[/QUOTE] This is straight false all the way down to the dramatic conclusion. Pilots don't deal with passengers either, and not all even transport passengers. Leave the statement to the post you had quoted. No need to elaborate.

My boss and close friend is an ex-marine, always complains about how planes are all fly-by-wire today. She says flying some of these planes is as easy as flying a plane on Playstation.

Automations in aircraft are put in place to reduce workload and rid the chances of human error, but I do agree that you can get too comfortable with the computer doing everything for you. When any problem arises you expect the pilot's training and/or experience to work through the problem. Being a commercial pilot can be summed up in hours of boredom, punctuated by moments of sheer terror. Still, there is no other job I'd rather do.