• Libya: Gaddafi 'cluster bombing Misrata'
    47 replies, posted
[quote=BBC] [B]Libya conflict: Gaddafi 'cluster bombing Misrata'[/B] Pro-government forces in Libya have been accused by a human rights campaign group of using cluster bombs, which are banned by more than 100 countries. Human Rights Watch said one of its photographers had seen three of the bombs explode over a residential area of the rebel-held city of Misrata. Libya's government has denied the allegation. Government troops have intensified their siege of Misrata, the only west Libyan city still in rebel hands. The BBC's Orla Guerin reports from inside the battle-scarred city that local residents fear a massacre without greater action by Nato air forces to break the siege. A meeting of Nato foreign ministers in Berlin has ended without a commitment from non-participating states to contribute warplanes despite an appeal by Nato chief Anders Fogh Rasmussen. The US, UK and France have said in a joint statement that the threat to Libyan civilians will not disappear while Colonel Muammar Gaddafi remains in power. Russia suggested Nato was exceeding its UN Security Council mandate to protect civilians. [B]'Appalling'[/B] Releasing photographs of a cluster bomb, New York-based Human Rights Watch said three had exploded over Misrata's el-Shawahda neighbourhood on Thursday night. First discovered by a New York Times reporter, and inspected by HRW researchers, the bomb photographed is said to be an MAT-120 120mm mortar projectile, which opens in mid-air and releases 21 sub-munitions over a wide area. "Upon exploding on contact with an object, each submunition disintegrates into high-velocity fragments to attack people and releases a slug of molten metal to penetrate armoured vehicles," HRW noted. HRW said the bomb it had examined had been manufactured in Spain. Steve Goose, HRW's arms division director, said it was "appalling" that Libya was using such weapons, especially in a residential area. "They pose a huge risk to civilians, both during attacks because of their indiscriminate nature and afterward because of the still-dangerous unexploded duds scattered about," he added. HRW said it could not determine whether any civilians had been hurt by the cluster bombs which "appear to have landed about 300 metres [yards] from Misrata hospital". [B]Tripoli denial[/B] The international Convention on Cluster Munitions adopted in Dublin in 2008 prohibits its 108 signatories from using cluster weapons because of the threat they pose to civilians. Libya is one of the states which has not signed the convention, along with countries such as the US, Israel, Russia and China. Libyan government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim denied cluster bombs had been used in Misrata. "I challenge them to prove it," he told reporters in the capital Tripoli. Referring to inspections by humanitarian groups, he said: "To use these bombs, the evidence would remain for days and weeks, and we know the international community is coming en masse to our country soon. So we can't do this, we can't do anything that would incriminate us even if we were criminals." There was no immediate comment from Spain, a signatory to the cluster munition convention, on the provenance of the bombs. The fragments found in Misrata were apparently produced in a year before the convention was adopted. Rebels in Misrata have been holding out against attacks for two months and UK Foreign Secretary William Hague has stressed that Nato needs to act swiftly to prevent a "massacre" in the city. He said Nato had been constrained by the need to avoid civilian casualties but had probably prevented the city from being overrun by Col Gaddafi's forces. [/quote] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-13102328[/url] The images mentioned (from the [url=http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2011/04/15/libya-cluster-munitions-strike-misrata]HRW[/url]) [img]http://www.hrw.org/en/sites/default/files/imagecache/scale-300x/media/images/photographs/2011_Libya_Cluster.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.hrw.org/en/sites/default/files/imagecache/scale-300x/media/images/photographs/2011_Libya_Mat120.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.hrw.org/en/sites/default/files/imagecache/scale-300x/media/images/photographs/2011_Libya_Mat120b.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.hrw.org/en/sites/default/files/imagecache/scale-300x/media/images/photographs/2011_Libya_Mat120d.jpg[/img] Quite shocking news if its true (and images tend not to lie). Makes you wonder, if Gaddafi is prepared to use cluster bombs (which are banned) where will he draw the line?
More jets outta be the answer.
Looks like Gaddafi Duck is up to his shenanigans again.
Oh my god someone kill the cunt already.
[QUOTE=Araknid;29203982]Oh my god someone kill the cunt already.[/QUOTE] Killing him would be a bad option IMO, he should be arrested and tried for any crimes he has allegedly committed.
I Guess from everything that is happing , the [i]revolution[/i] is going to be over.
Never been a more appropriate time to say they're literally clusterfucked
[QUOTE=The golden;29204593]Can can a court ever make up for the thousands of people he has murdered?[/QUOTE] Proper justice > assassination. That is all I have to say really.
[QUOTE=The golden;29204736]Please point out when and where this man ever gave his people "Proper Justice".[/QUOTE] I'd be much more entertaining to take him to the Court of Human Rights and see his excuses.
[QUOTE=The golden;29204736]Please point out when and where this man ever gave his people "Proper Justice".[/QUOTE] The West cannot run around promoting freedom and democracy and the general western way of living if they then act in a completely barbaric way by murdering someone. Fair enough if he gets killed in an attack but he should not be a target.
And I thought we were over with this shit already.
[QUOTE=The golden;29204736]Please point out when and where this man ever gave his people "Proper Justice".[/QUOTE] We are not sheriffs, we are not the world police. We will hold Qaddafi up to the standards that every nation must follow through with basic human rights. He is to face a court, of his own peers and be sentenced. Mubark and Qaddafi will make four world leaders to ever be tried in court for human rights violations on their own people.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29205103]We are not sheriffs, we are not the world police. We will hold Qaddafi up to the standards that every nation must follow through with basic human rights. He is to face a court, of his own peers and be sentenced. Mubark and Qaddafi will make four world leaders to ever be tried in court for human rights violations on their own people.[/QUOTE] Is it really only two people so far?
People who fight in wars for their very existence are going to use cluster bombs. They are a cornerstone of air dropped munitions and are extremely effective. The fact that he is hitting civilians with them is revolting, but cluster bombs? I'm amazed anyone has even noticed.
[QUOTE=Jsm;29205183]Is it really only two people so far?[/QUOTE] Sadam, Qaddafi, Mubark, and the Military Adminitstration of Venezuela during the late 70s are the only leaders who have/will face charges. Everyone else escapes jurisdiction.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29205373]Sadam, Qaddafi, Mubark, and the Military Adminitstration of Venezuela during the late 70s are the only leaders who have/will face charges. Everyone else escapes jurisdiction.[/QUOTE] Ah, I was going to says perhaps Slobodan Milošević as well but having just double checked on Wikipedia it seems he died during the trial (I thought he died after). Its somewhat shocking given the number of people accused of it that so few people have actually been tried for it.
[QUOTE=Jsm;29205450]Ah, I was going to says perhaps Slobodan Milošević as well but having just double checked on Wikipedia it seems he died during the trial (I thought he died after). Its somewhat shocking given the number of people accused of it that so few people have actually been tried for it.[/QUOTE] Because national law used to trump international law, most say it was legal at the time to do these crimes. Which is why so few actually get put on trial. It was only because the military administration were retarded and never actually changed the laws, and that's what led to international law being just as important as national law which is how we'll get Qaddafi, Mubark and how we got Saddam.
I feel like Ghadaffi will either be killed or kill himself before he'll ever let himself be put on trial.
[QUOTE=Swilly;29205489]Because national law used to trump international law, most say it was legal at the time to do these crimes. Which is why so few actually get put on trial. It was only because the military administration were retarded and never actually changed the laws, and that's what led to international law being just as important as national law which is how we'll get Qaddafi, Mubark and how we got Saddam.[/QUOTE] Not that the international court has any right to decide what to do with him. They are no the injured party, nor have the governed consented to their control. International courts only can legitimately apply to democratic nations which have voted them in. Consent of the governed is a substantial part of any decent governing body. If Gaddafi is captured it should be up to the people of his nation to decide what to do with him once they reform the justice system. They are the ones wronged. Nobody else has the right to decide his fate. Saddam was also tried and executed doing exactly what I just stated.
[QUOTE=GunFox;29206109]Not that the international court has any right to decide what to do with him. They are no the injured party, nor have the governed consented to their control. International courts only can legitimately apply to democratic nations which have voted them in. Consent of the governed is a substantial part of any decent governing body. If Gaddafi is captured it should be up to the people of his nation to decide what to do with him once they reform the justice system. They are the ones wronged. Nobody else has the right to decide his fate. Saddam was also tried and executed doing exactly what I just stated.[/QUOTE] I thought Sadam was tried by his own country men but was tried for breaking international law.
[QUOTE=Jsm;29204270]Killing him would be a bad option IMO, he should be arrested and tried for any crimes he has allegedly committed.[/QUOTE] Why? Are you saying he shouldn't be executed for launching AA missiles at civilians?
[QUOTE=SNNS-SEAN;29207032]Why? Are you saying he shouldn't be executed for launching AA missiles at civilians?[/QUOTE] There is a difference between execution and outright killing him. If he is found guilty by a court and is sentenced to death then yes he should be killed, but it is up to a court (ideally one in Libya when/if he goes, like with Saddam in Iraq) to decide his fate. You cannot just say "oh he should be killed because he is bad!!" that is what dictators do. If he was just killed without a trial anyone involved in his killing would be no better than he or any other dictator that has killed their own citizens.
Gaddafi dont give a fuck what people think
Cluster bombs aren't actually banned, a bunch of countries have just pledged not to use them. Countries like the US, Russia, China and India still use them.
snip
[QUOTE=GunFox;29205247]People who fight in wars for their very existence are going to use cluster bombs. They are a cornerstone of air dropped munitions and are extremely effective. The fact that he is hitting civilians with them is revolting, but cluster bombs? I'm amazed anyone has even noticed.[/QUOTE] We should ban war that oughta stop all the fighting!
[QUOTE=Matthew0505;29209882]Stopping civilians from being bombed > "Proper" justice[/QUOTE] Killing Gaddafi will not stop the attacks. I doubt he is directly ordering them. This is the problem a lot of people seem to have, not just with this. Taking the leader away from something will not necessarily stop something if people believe in the cause enough. By the looks of it a lot of the people actually carrying out the attacks genuinely want to protect Gaddafi, if he died these people would want to avenge his death and probably would step up their attacks. Its the same as people thinking that killing Bin Laden would stop Al Qaeda committing terrorism.
[QUOTE=Jsm;29210217]Killing Gaddafi will not stop the attacks. I doubt he is directly ordering them. This is the problem a lot of people seem to have, not just with this. Taking the leader away from something will not necessarily stop something if people believe in the cause enough. By the looks of it a lot of the people actually carrying out the attacks genuinely want to protect Gaddafi, if he died these people would want to avenge his death and probably would step up their attacks. Its the same as people thinking that killing Bin Laden would stop Al Qaeda committing terrorism.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? I thought Gaddafi was personally flying the attack planes.
[QUOTE=Explosions;29210260]What are you talking about? I thought Gaddafi was personally flying the attack planes.[/QUOTE] You have uncovered the great secret of Gaddafi, his entire army is made up of clones of him. Obviously you must die now, at the hands of a clone army.
So now hes breaking more laws? Is he trying to make it worse for himself?
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