[IMG]https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/LzCLgMmQ2Ytjuc6XUc1eOA--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjtzbT0xO3c9NzY4O2g9NTEyO2lsPXBsYW5l/http://media.zenfs.com/en_sg/News/AFP/fdfd3619ca1bf0cd2a1e46a281271e55d52feee2.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE]A Dutch adventure company has come under fire for a tourist attraction challenging visitors to escape from a bunker that includes a secret annexe built to look like the Amsterdam apartment where Anne Frank hid from the Nazis with her family.Visitors to the "Escape Bunker" are told they are trapped resistance fighters and must find a way of escaping.
But the Anne Frank Foundation on Saturday condemned the attraction in southern Brabant province, saying it showed "very little empathy for survivors of the Shoah (Holocaust)" and even created "the impression that hiding from the Nazis was an exciting pastime".
It also criticised the game for suggesting "that if people in hiding were smart enough they would not be caught".
"That is not only historically -- and so also educationally -- inaccurate, but also condescending," it added.
Escape Bunker did not reply to an AFP request for comment.
The company did not "intend to offend anybody" and would change some of its wording in the texts accompanying the game, organiser Thijs Verberne was quoted as saying by Dutch media.[/QUOTE]
[url]https://sg.news.yahoo.com/anne-frank-dutch-escape-bunker-game-under-fire-195941774.html?nhp=1&linkId=22478486[/url]
[editline]21st March 2016[/editline]
Escape Auschwitz next?
I hope they shrug off the critics and make it for VR too
Yeah I guess I'm not feeling the controversy on this one.
[quote]It also criticised the game for suggesting "that if people in hiding were smart enough they would not be caught".
"That is not only historically -- and so also educationally -- inaccurate, but also condescending," it added.[/quote]
I... uuhh
I'm pretty sure it is correct?
It all comes down to one side outsmarting the other when it comes to anything.. between companies, countries or individuals.
Getting caught with anything is simply a fight where you are trying to come up with every possibility and event that might occur and your opponent doing the same, trying to outsmart you.
'That guy might have a knife'
'Okay, then I will use a gun to shoot from a distance'
'Then I shall use a sniper to take you out from a greater, safer distance'
'Okay, then I will drive a tank so the sniper can't take me out'
'Then I will use anti-tank mines'
'Then I will go by plane'
'Then I will use anti-aircraft missiles'
'Then I will employ active missile defense'
'Then I will send enough missiles your way that you can't track and shoot them all'
'Then I will use a wide burst device to take them out at once'
'Then I will use an EMP to take out your device'
'Then I will use EMP proof shielding'
Reality is, if you are a smaller group of people against a larger group, the larger group has a much larger think tank available, it's not victim blaming, it's not 'condescending'. It's a FACT.
[QUOTE=nuttyboffin;49973523]
Reality is, if you are a smaller group of people against a larger group, the larger group has a much larger think tank available, it's not victim blaming, it's not 'condescending'. It's a FACT.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't make the other side smarter though, they just have more manpower. They're clearly talking about that they think it implies people hiding from the Germans in WW2 weren't smart enough because they got caught. What you're saying isn't applicable to hiding from the Germans, because all they could really do was hide in someone's cellar or something and hope they wouldn't be found or someone wouldn't give their location away.
[editline]21st March 2016[/editline]
Why did they pick a replica of Anne Frank's house as a setting for this??? It seems really random, there was no way for Anne Frank to escape lol
These escape rooms aren't about action or defeating nazis. They're basically themed rooms with puzzles in them that you have to solve in order to figure out how to get out of the room.
I've seen rooms themed around jail cells, castle dining rooms, etc. I personally don't see the controversy about an Anne Frank themed room.
I don't understand the controversy either, it might be a sensitive subject for some people who still experienced the war (or via their parents) but on the other hand it might turn out to be a valuable learning tool for people who don't yet quite understand what people like Anne Frank went through
how is this any different to video games where you shoot people in ww2? in this irl game you hide as anne frank theres nothing wrong with it its educational
[editline]21st March 2016[/editline]
hope it comes with an authentic neutral milk hotel soundtrack
As someone who is studying to become a history teacher, I see attractions like this as a great way of engaging students, and give them a "feel" of how certain historical events played out.
It's what is known as "living history", and one of the biggest issues history teachers face is making the students interested in something that, to them, seem so very distant and unrelatable... which it is, in pretty much every case. If you have nothing but a book to show the students, you're going to have a hard time getting even the most interested student to truely care.
So, to reiterate, things like this are great, and I don't understand why anyone would have anything against it, unless it somehow directly slanders/makes fun of/ or somehow else doesn't respect the event it is attempting to recreate.
An example I used in my recent internship, we were discussing the danish renaissance and one of the more interesting subjects in that regard was the various witch hunts at the time. But, I did not just want to tell my students about the injustices of the witch hunts, I wanted them to "experience" it themselves, or you know, an appropriate approximation. So I re-themed the party game "Werewolf" and told the students that, much like the original game, a couple of withches were in their midst and they had to find them and kill them. But there was a catch I only revealed at the end of the game; there were no witches at all in the deck of roles I distributed to them. They had been accused of, and in certain instances "killed" for things they did not do; it really gave them, in my opinion, a better insight that no book or presentation could have given them. The follow up discussion we had, based on the game and the material we had been working with, was really interesting and it seemed the students were more engaged. THAT is what this sort of thing can do for a history class, and I highly recommend it.
[QUOTE=Muggi;49975952]As someone who is studying to become a history teacher, I see attractions like this as a great way of engaging students, and give them a "feel" of how certain historical events played out.
It's what is known as "living history", and one of the biggest issues history teachers face is making the students interested in something that, to them, seem so very distant and unrelatable... which it is, in pretty much every case. If you have nothing but a book to show the students, you're going to have a hard time getting even the most interested student to truely care.
So, to reiterate, things like this are great, and I don't understand why anyone would have anything against it, unless it somehow directly slanders/makes fun of/ or somehow else doesn't respect the event it is attempting to recreate.
An example I used in my recent internship, we were discussing the danish renaissance and one of the more interesting subjects in that regard was the various witch hunts at the time. But, I did not just want to tell my students about the injustices of the witch hunts, I wanted them to "experience" it themselves, or you know, an appropriate approximation. So I re-themed the party game "Werewolf" and told the students that, much like the original game, a couple of withches were in their midst and they had to find them and kill them. But there was a catch I only revealed at the end of the game; there were no witches at all in the deck of roles I distributed to them. They had been accused of, and in certain instances "killed" for things they did not do; it really gave them, in my opinion, a better insight that no book or presentation could have given them. The follow up discussion we had, based on the game and the material we had been working with, was really interesting and it seemed the students were more engaged. THAT is what this sort of thing can do for a history class, and I highly recommend it.[/QUOTE]
Why the fuck were you not my history teacher
Classes would had been so much better
[QUOTE=Ignhelper;49976445]Why the fuck were you not my history teacher
Classes would had been so much better[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the kind words.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;49973518]The comparison to hiding from the nazis pastime is about as accurate as saying call of duty makes people think war crimes are a game
[editline]20th March 2016[/editline]
And he'll yeah I'd play escape death camp[/QUOTE]
Escape death camp vr sounds like it would be hella tense.
[QUOTE=Muggi;49975952]As someone who is studying to become a history teacher, I see attractions like this as a great way of engaging students, and give them a "feel" of how certain historical events played out...[/QUOTE]
That's really cool, more classes need to go into interactive themes. Especially during school years where no one cares about most of the subjects and only do them because they're forced to.
You sound like a cool future teacher, hopefully such things become more of a norm in future schooling. It not only makes students more interested in the subject, it also develops deeper bonds between each other and their teachers.
As for the topic at hand, the creators have a great thing on their hands, hope some offended silly people won't be a reason for them to stop or downgrade the experience.
[QUOTE=Muggi;49975952]As someone who is studying to become a history teacher, I see attractions like this as a great way of engaging students, and give them a "feel" of how certain historical events played out.
It's what is known as "living history", and one of the biggest issues history teachers face is making the students interested in something that, to them, seem so very distant and unrelatable... which it is, in pretty much every case. If you have nothing but a book to show the students, you're going to have a hard time getting even the most interested student to truely care.
So, to reiterate, things like this are great, and I don't understand why anyone would have anything against it, unless it somehow directly slanders/makes fun of/ or somehow else doesn't respect the event it is attempting to recreate.
An example I used in my recent internship, we were discussing the danish renaissance and one of the more interesting subjects in that regard was the various witch hunts at the time. But, I did not just want to tell my students about the injustices of the witch hunts, I wanted them to "experience" it themselves, or you know, an appropriate approximation. So I re-themed the party game "Werewolf" and told the students that, much like the original game, a couple of withches were in their midst and they had to find them and kill them. But there was a catch I only revealed at the end of the game; there were no witches at all in the deck of roles I distributed to them. They had been accused of, and in certain instances "killed" for things they did not do; it really gave them, in my opinion, a better insight that no book or presentation could have given them. The follow up discussion we had, based on the game and the material we had been working with, was really interesting and it seemed the students were more engaged. THAT is what this sort of thing can do for a history class, and I highly recommend it.[/QUOTE]
You are absolutely right, but context is everything.
As an education minded simulation this could indeed be an intense and emotional experience that could leave people going through it with maybe even a little more understanding of what it's been like to be there.
I mean, just walking through Anne Frank's house you get a sense of this from just seeing stuff like the magazine pictures she glued to the walls of her room, when you suddenly understand this was a real living human girl that lived there and was taken and killed by someone.
Hiding in a room like hers, trying to imagine what it must have been like? Yeah absolutely the best way to learn about this.
But an adventure room? "You're hiding from the evil Nazis, solve this stupid riddles to get out"? Nah. That's just taking a real world tragedy and turning it into entertainment, and not even for the sake of shock art.
It's like, I don't know, "You're stuck in a room in the WTC, solve this stupid puzzle to get out before the airliner hits you"?
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49976671]
But an adventure room? "You're hiding from the evil Nazis, solve this stupid riddles to get out"? Nah. That's just taking a real world tragedy and turning it into entertainment, and not even for the sake of shock art.
It's like, I don't know, "You're stuck in a room in the WTC, solve this stupid puzzle to get out before the airliner hits you"?[/QUOTE]
I don't see it like that at all. 9/11 is a recent thing, Nazi Germany is a historical thing. By that logic Vietnam/WW2 games are bad because they glorify real war? It's a bad reason to not do something.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;49976695]I don't see it like that at all. 9/11 is a recent thing, Nazi Germany is a historical thing. By that logic Vietnam/WW2 games are bad because they glorify real war? It's a bad reason to not do something.[/QUOTE]
That's not what I'm saying.
Anne Frank was a specific person, and her death is a specific tragedy. Turning it into a party favor is for all intents and purposes the same as making a bungee ride themed around that guy that jumped out of the WTC window.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49976671]You are absolutely right, but context is everything.
As an education minded simulation this could indeed be an intense and emotional experience that could leave people going through it with maybe even a little more understanding of what it's been like to be there.
I mean, just walking through Anne Frank's house you get a sense of this from just seeing stuff like the magazine pictures she glued to the walls of her room, when you suddenly understand this was a real living human girl that lived there and was taken and killed by someone.
Hiding in a room like hers, trying to imagine what it must have been like? Yeah absolutely the best way to learn about this.
But an adventure room? "You're hiding from the evil Nazis, solve this stupid riddles to get out"? Nah. That's just taking a real world tragedy and turning it into entertainment, and not even for the sake of shock art.
It's like, I don't know, "You're stuck in a room in the WTC, solve this stupid puzzle to get out before the airliner hits you"?[/QUOTE]
You are absolutley right, you can not just throw a group of students in something like this and then call it a day. They need to be taught about the context of the simulation, through other means than just at the simulation. But, any teacher worth their paycheck will make sure that that is the case.
You also have to remember that we really have a limited toolset for actually mimicking the stress the people went through in this situation, while still keeping it appropriate. Although some might find it tasteless, "gamifying" the simulation is actually a really great way of capturing the things that the victims went through in this instance... but again, as you yourself have stated, context is key to this, the students need to be properly primed for something like this to ever be considered appropriate in my book.
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49976756]That's not what I'm saying.
Anne Frank was a specific person, and her death is a specific tragedy. Turning it into a party favor is for all intents and purposes the same as making a bungee ride themed around that guy that jumped out of the WTC window.[/QUOTE]
I still don't see that as a problem what so ever. No one's mocking her, it's just a fun activity based on a theme, what's so oh god wrong with that?
[QUOTE=Muggi;49976987]You are absolutley right, you can not just throw a group of students in something like this and then call it a day. They need to be taught about the context of the simulation, through other means than just at the simulation. But, any teacher worth their paycheck will make sure that that is the case.
You also have to remember that we really have a limited toolset for actually mimicking the stress the people went through in this situation, while still keeping it appropriate. Although some might find it tasteless, "gamifying" the simulation is actually a really great way of capturing the things that the victims went through in this instance... but again, as you yourself have stated, context is key to this, the students need to be properly primed for something like this to ever be considered appropriate in my book.[/QUOTE]
No argument there. I'm just saying the OP isn't about an educational facility intended for students. This isn't a simulation with any pretense of education. It's an "escape room". Something like [URL="http://escaperoomla.com/"]this[/URL].
[editline]21st March 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;49977016]I still don't see that as a problem what so ever. No one's mocking her, it's just a fun activity based on a theme, what's so oh god wrong with that?[/QUOTE]
Of course you don't. That's the whole point. You're just gonna have to accept that just because you're perfectly cool with that doesn't mean every other person on the face of the Earth is. There are, right now, plenty of people who would find it at the very least tasteless and even damn right offensive to make a 9/11 themed Disney ride. There are other people that think making a party game inspired by the persecution and subsequent murder of a Jewish girl is similarly in bad taste. People have FEELS. Such is life.
Reminds me of this at 1:50:
[video=youtube_share;3i2l98oCvmI]http://youtu.be/3i2l98oCvmI?t=1m50s[/video]
[QUOTE=ScumBunny;49977112]No argument there. I'm just saying the OP isn't about an educational facility intended for students. This isn't a simulation with any pretense of education. It's an "escape room". Something like [URL="http://escaperoomla.com/"]this[/URL].
[editline]21st March 2016[/editline]
Of course you don't. That's the whole point. You're just gonna have to accept that just because you're perfectly cool with that doesn't mean every other person on the face of the Earth is. There are, right now, plenty of people who would find it at the very least tasteless and even damn right offensive to make a 9/11 themed Disney ride. There are other people that think making a party game inspired by the persecution and subsequent murder of a Jewish girl is similarly in bad taste. People have FEELS. Such is life.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, it obviously is not meant as an educational tool. I'm just saying I see the potential there.
I guess this is why I don't consider my self patriotic or proud to be British, I dunno I just don't really want to be seen as a super aggressive "BRITANNIA RULES THE WAVES/GOD SAVE THE QUEEN" I unno, wars are way too scary and I just don't want another one tbh
[QUOTE=Egevened;49975709]how is this any different to video games where you shoot people in ww2? in this irl game you hide as anne frank theres nothing wrong with it its educational
[editline]21st March 2016[/editline]
hope it comes with an authentic neutral milk hotel soundtrack[/QUOTE]
whats up with nmh? :(
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