Bioshock Infinite will fix the faults of its predecessor's system of choice - Polidicks

Source: [url]http://www.polygon.com/2013/1/17/3886934/bioshock-infinite-will-fix-the-faults-of-its-predecessors-system-of[/url] [quote]Bioshock Infinite developer Irrational Games aims to ameliorate on the original title's black-and-white morality system which the designers believe failed to have enough impact on players, writer Drew Holmes told Polygon.[/quote]

I think the original Bioshock did a fine job at the morality thing, even if it was binary and influenced gameplay directly. Getting an ending just makes you play it a second time just to see the other ending. I don't see why the devs think people should play it until they "become numb" Morality systems have always been introduced in really ham-handed, ways, with most being plain binary "kill orphans/be the dalai lama" kinda stuff, but eventually a dev's gonna figure out how to properly introduce a "sliding scale" morality system in a game in a way that it both affects the actual gameplay and the player's feelings about their actions. Could that dev be Irrational Games, could that game be Bioshock Infinite? Maybe.

the problem is game devs havent figured out a way to move morality and other concepts away from simple boolean values, so because its an interactive medium it becomes irrelevant. its like if instead of actually moving cars on the road when you play a racing game, the game would ask via a prompt which direction you would go, and the wrong boolean value would fail the game. that's boring, and pretty much how most games handle morality. when he says "I want the more special juice to make me do the thing", the reason why is because in most games, Bioshock included, morality is simply a boolean modifier of something you do in the game, not an actual concept you explore or understand via gameplay. ultimately if the game doesnt give you a way to explore its themes via gameplay, everything just ends up really pretty wallpaper, like Dishonoured. [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] yeah

[QUOTE=thisispain;39326655]the problem is game devs havent figured out a way to move morality and other concepts away from simple boolean values, so because its an interactive medium it becomes irrelevant. its like if instead of actually moving cars on the road when you play a racing game, the game would ask via a prompt which direction you would go, and the wrong boolean value would fail the game. that's boring, and pretty much how most games handle morality. when he says "I want the more special juice to make me do the thing", the reason why is because in most games, Bioshock included, morality is simply a boolean modifier of something you do in the game, not an actual concept you explore or understand via gameplay. ultimately if the game doesnt give you a way to explore its themes via gameplay, everything just ends up really pretty wallpaper, like Dishonoured. [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] yeah[/QUOTE] Here's hoping the morality and ethical stuff adds to the background story. Also Dishonored is kinda more like a pretty, and kinda fun wallpaper made by Victor Antonov.

a majority of people who play games just want to shoot baddies, not think about morality or whatever i'm gonna say that it's pretty much impossible for games to handle morality well, cus of the nature of the medium. only genre able to to it maybe would be something insanely non-interactive like point and click adventure and visual novels

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39326680]Here's hoping the morality and ethical stuff adds to the background story. [/QUOTE] theres no point to that tho if i want to read or know something about morality and ethical stuffff i'll pick up a book which is a medium far better suited for that kind of shit because i don't have to sit through gameplay a game should explore its themes via gameplay because that's the point of a game, otherwise it's just tacked on stuff that just makes the game feel more important like the Ayn Rand stuff in Bioshock was unique and hip, but did pretty much nothing to explore anything Ayn Rand-related beyond like a bunch of quotes a character would say idk why im ranting about this, i guess i'm saying all of this seems like a big waste of time if the developers don't actually give the player a way to explore themes; it just becomes a pseudo-intellectual demonstration of the developers' knowledge in modernist literature [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;39326711]a majority of people who play games just want to shoot baddies, not think about morality or whatever[/QUOTE] yeah i dont think cod would be improved if after every mission the characters would cry and ask themselves what the meaning of war is

[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;39326711]a majority of people who play games just want to shoot baddies, not think about morality or whatever i'm gonna say that it's pretty much impossible for games to handle morality well, cus of the nature of the medium. only genre able to to it maybe would be something insanely non-interactive like point and click adventure and visual novels[/QUOTE] What I got from here was that your morality choices don't affect the game that much and you can just have fun shooting dudes, but if you stop and smell the roses (the roses being the huge analogy to colonial America and the racism and stuff) you realize the game has a deep and emotional story that is affected by what you do in the game.

[QUOTE=thisispain;39326715]theres no point to that tho if i want to read or know something about morality and ethical stuffff i'll pick up a book which is a medium far better suited for that kind of shit because i don't have to sit through gameplay a game should explore its themes via gameplay because that's the point of a game, otherwise it's just tacked on stuff that just makes the game feel more important like the Ayn Rand stuff in Bioshock was unique and hip, but did pretty much nothing to explore anything Ayn Rand-related beyond like a bunch of quotes a character would say idk why im ranting about this, i guess i'm saying all of this seems like a big waste of time if the developers don't actually give the player a way to explore themes; it just becomes a pseudo-intellectual demonstration of the developers' knowledge in modernist literature [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] yeah i dont think cod would be improved if after every mission the characters would cry and ask themselves what the meaning of war is[/QUOTE] So just bring back the moral choice system them? Otherwise I can't think of any other idea have the player explore the theme via gameplay without doing that or something completely different.

[QUOTE=latin_geek;39326740]What I got from here was that your morality choices don't affect the game that much and you can just have fun shooting dudes, but if you stop and smell the roses (the roses being the huge analogy to colonial America and the racism and stuff) you realize the game has a deep and emotional story that is affected by what you do in the game.[/QUOTE] that's just pointless at that point all you are doing is smelling roses; just saying "WOW this is cool" and it pretty much ends there. to me that's like what happens at the end of Half-Life 2. you got to be in a cool roller-coaster ride but it ends up not being important or saying anything at all

[QUOTE=thisispain;39326762]that's just pointless at that point all you are doing is smelling roses; just saying "WOW this is cool" and it pretty much ends there. to me that's like what happens at the end of Half-Life 2. you got to be in a cool roller-coaster ride but it ends up not being important or saying anything at all[/QUOTE] What would you do to fix it? To make it so someone can get something out of a game like Bioshock Infinite.

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39326761]So just bring back the moral choice system them? Otherwise I can't think of any other idea have the player explore the theme via gameplay without doing that or something completely different.[/QUOTE] no that's the thing tho, when you put in a moral choice system you arent asking questions about morality, you're just creating a morally objective world in a way that was the only real Ayn Rand related thing in Bioshock, and by that standard almost all games are about Ayn Rand lmao

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39326793]What would you do to fix it? To make it so someone can get something out of a game like Bioshock Infinite.[/QUOTE] you can't fix it it's just kinda how entertainment in general works [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] cept music maybe? iunno

I don't really like having moral choices in games, it makes me feel really stressed and uncomfortable, specially with the posibility of making bad things. It's the same reason I can't stand life simulators like The Sims. But anyway, I don't know in which direction they'll approach choices in this game, but I do hope they don't give it that much focus or it's too drastic. Branching paths and that sort of thing is cool and adds replay value, but I don't really have the same opinion when morality is involved, personally. We'll see when the game comes out.

[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;39326800]you can't fix it it's just kinda how entertainment in general works[/QUOTE] Exactly my idea, it's impossible to really "give" a lesson. The only game to do that is the DLC for Fallout New Vegas, Dead Money. [sp]The lesson was "let go" as in let go of all the gold bars there and just leave the Sierra Madre. You can immediately see how this would fail.[/sp] In my opinion, a good game comes from a combination of good writing, good characters, and a great atmosphere, as well as little background things that add more to the game's world.

the point isnt to give a lesson, the point is to give a player the opportunity to explore a concept or a theme what fallout 1 said about morality wasn't done by the developers trying to "teach" you something, it came by the consequences of your actions and how the game world responds to them it's why the ending was so powerful, the game gave you choices but at the end showed you that none of your choices mattered because they all led to the same inevitable fate that's exploring morality, it was a criticism of the concept of self-determination and a criticism of the objective morality that they found in the pen & paper games that fallout was influenced by that's only made more powerful by the fact that what The Master was trying to do is self-determinate and change the fate of the human race; only to be destroyed not by you, but just by the fact that his entire operation was flawed and incapable of continuing due to reproduction being impossible. basically fallout says the human race is fucked [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39326813] The lesson was "let go" as in let go of all the gold bars there and just leave the Sierra Madre. You can immediately see how this would fail.[/QUOTE] that's just an aesop, games do that all the time

I would argue that on the contrary, the vast majority of games today are just a steady flow of achievements and expendable items that are there to keep you paying just that little bit longer. It's fun a lot of the time, but I wouldn't say it's common place for a player to be challenged with having to leave an item/area of the game unfinished because of morality or, as you say, an aesop. Game developers really don't like wasting their time. It's a hell of a lot more work for them to make a game 3 times as large, just so that you can use 30% of it and have a variable experience from someone else that's played. I think one of the only decent examples I can think of is TES: Oblivion or Fallout (to a lesser extent). There was just so much content, especially in Oblivion, that it was very easy to never come into contact with something that a group of developers had probably spent 10s of hours on. I guess what I'm saying is, games that truly offer actual choices, and incorporate actual empathy in the player are by no means easy to come by. It's uneconomical for many studios to take a crack at such things.

[QUOTE=thisispain;39326828]the point isnt to give a lesson, the point is to give a player the opportunity to explore a concept or a theme what fallout 1 said about morality wasn't done by the developers trying to "teach" you something, it came by the consequences of your actions and how the game world responds to them it's why the ending was so powerful, the game gave you choices but at the end showed you that none of your choices mattered because they all led to the same inevitable fate that's exploring morality, it was a criticism of the concept of self-determination and a criticism of the objective morality that they found in the pen & paper games that fallout was influenced by that's only made more powerful by the fact that what The Master was trying to do is self-determinate and change the fate of the human race; only to be destroyed not by you, but just by the fact that his entire operation was flawed and incapable of continuing due to reproduction being impossible. basically fallout says the human race is fucked [/QUOTE] Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to bash your argument. That said, I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, but it just comes across as confusing.

[QUOTE=Proffrink;39326911] I guess what I'm saying is, games that truly offer actual choices, and incorporate actual empathy in the player are by no means easy to come by. It's uneconomical for many studios to take a crack at such things.[/QUOTE] but only because its just a lot easier and sales-effective to make a game where you blow holes in everything ultimately at the end of the day, almost all shooters are just games where you blow holes in everything, regardless of how many pretentious literary references or allusions the developers put in if bioshock: infinite is like that then im already pretty disappointed [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39326920]Now don't get me wrong here, I'm not trying to bash your argument. That said, I'm trying to understand what you're getting at, but it just comes across as confusing.[/QUOTE] if i can say it as simply as i could movies are supposed to be "show, don't tell", i think games should be the same way. if the developer just tells me stuff without giving me the ability to experience it or play through it then it's just wasting my time

[QUOTE=thisispain;39326940] if i can say it as simply as i could movies are supposed to be "show, don't tell", i think games should be the same way. if the developer just tells me stuff without giving me the ability to experience it or play through it then it's just wasting my time[/QUOTE] i think that's why bioshock infinite is set during the revolution of columbia, as opposed to after it like rapture in bioshock 1/2 [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] i agree though, games like dark souls that want me to go out and like research it to gather the story annoy me alot. just tell me the story, don't make me seek it out

[QUOTE=thisispain;39326940]but only because its just a lot easier and sales-effective to make a game where you blow holes in everything ultimately at the end of the day, almost all shooters are just games where you blow holes in everything, regardless of how many pretentious literary references or allusions the developers put in if bioshock: infinite is like that then im already pretty disappointed [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] if i can say it as simply as i could movies are supposed to be "show, don't tell", i think games should be the same way. if the developer just tells me stuff without giving me the ability to experience it or play through it then it's just wasting my time[/QUOTE] Well in honesty Infinite would at least be more fresh then whatever Call of Duty or CoD Knockoff will be released around next Holiday Season. Again don't take this as me being rude or snide, but I think you're asking for a bitch much here.

[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;39326967]i think that's why bioshock infinite is set during the revolution of columbia, as opposed to after it like rapture in bioshock 1/2 [editline]23rd January 2013[/editline] i agree though, games like dark souls that want me to go out and like research it to gather the story annoy me alot. just tell me the story, don't make me seek it out[/QUOTE] but then again part of the point of bioshock 1 was finding out what happened to rapture. bioshock 2 was pointless as hell iunno DIFFENT STROKES FOR DIFFENT FOLKS

[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39326972]Well in honesty Infinite would at least be more fresh then whatever Call of Duty or CoD Knockoff will be released around next Holiday Season.[/QUOTE] k i dont play those games so i couldn't give less of a fuck how fresh it is. the most recent game i bothered really playing was Shogun 2 [QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;39326972]Again don't take this as me being rude or snide, but I think you're asking for a bitch much here.[/QUOTE] if pretentious indie games and old dos games from 1997 can do this then i dont think im asking for a bitch much m8

i'd say it's asking for alot since every medium is still struggling with it

[QUOTE=Hamsterjuice;39327011]i'd say it's asking for alot since every medium is still struggling with it[/QUOTE] hmm? i think other mediums have done just fine with engaging the audience to explore themes?

It doesn't change the fact that we haven't played the game yet. Until then we have no idea what kind of ethical and moral things we'll find in it.

[QUOTE=latin_geek;39326538]I think the original Bioshock did a fine job at the morality thing, even if it was binary and influenced gameplay directly. Getting an ending just makes you play it a second time just to see the other ending. I don't see why the devs think people should play it until they "become numb" Morality systems have always been introduced in really ham-handed, ways, with most being plain binary "kill orphans/be the dalai lama" kinda stuff, but eventually a dev's gonna figure out how to properly introduce a "sliding scale" morality system in a game in a way that it both affects the actual gameplay and the player's feelings about their actions. Could that dev be Irrational Games, could that game be Bioshock Infinite? Maybe.[/QUOTE] dishonored? you can kill the people who probably deserve to die, or in the end just do it without death, but it plays against you because you actually want them to die killing them changes what happens in the world, just as saving them changes what happens

[QUOTE=thisispain;39327049]hmm? i think other mediums have done just fine with engaging the audience to explore themes?[/QUOTE] i was talking morality strictly

[QUOTE=mopman999;39327137]dishonored?[/QUOTE] Well if it wasn't affected by the way you played the game. Literally.

i'd imagine the problem with with conveying morality is that people would divorce themselves from it to some extent when it comes to entertainment this post was suppose to be up there ^^^^^^

[QUOTE=latin_geek;39326538]I think the original Bioshock did a fine job at the morality thing, even if it was binary and influenced gameplay directly. Getting an ending just makes you play it a second time just to see the other ending. I don't see why the devs think people should play it until they "become numb" Morality systems have always been introduced in really ham-handed, ways, with most being plain binary "kill orphans/be the dalai lama" kinda stuff, but eventually a dev's gonna figure out how to properly introduce a "sliding scale" morality system in a game in a way that it both affects the actual gameplay and the player's feelings about their actions. Could that dev be Irrational Games, could that game be Bioshock Infinite? Maybe.[/QUOTE] Witcher 2 did that in a way. Not so much the idea of a sliding scale, but one of the things it does well is present two choices, both of which are a completely grey area morally - and often, your choice will affect the gameplay to a pretty big degree. I can remember in Witcher 2 one of the choices you make influences the whole setting of the middle chapter of the game.