Is Valve going to harm gaming with their business model for Dota 2?
28 replies, posted
First and foremost I want to make it clear that in my argument I will not be talking about anything specific about the actual game play of Dota 2. I am just focusing on the business plan as I see it and how that relates to consumers, Steam and gaming in general.
Second I also want to say that I don't hate Valve, Steam or any game made by Valve, in fact I really enjoy Valve and Steam, I only want to bring up a discussion about a possible harmful effect Valve may have on gaming.
Dota 2 is a high quality game that is planned to be completely free to play in all normal game play aspects. This is no doubt a great deal for the consumers, getting a great game for free is something that hasn't really been seen much.
The reason Valve can do this is based on two major points, previous fans and Steam.
Valve is already a famous game company with a fanbase developed from strong game series like Half Life and Portal. This gives Valve a strong advantage whenever they decide to make a new game.
Steam also allows Valve to sell great games at a loss if needed. If Valve makes a popular game but sells at a loss, that game could then end up as an advertisement for steam and Valve would end up making more money from Steam.
Now Dota 2 may stifle the entire MOBA genre for all of the following reasons
Dota 2 is a high quality MOBA developed by a major gaming studio.
No other MOBA can be sold cheaper than Dota 2.
Small gaming companies can't really enter into the MOBA genre because they don't have the pre-established fanbase or something like Steam for them to backup on.
A comparison can be drawn between Valve and Walmart.
Walmart was able to sell products at extremely low prices which would essentially starve other businesses until they were forced out of business by Walmart and then consumer choices were then lowered.
Likewise Valve may be in a similar situation where they could stop entire genres of gaming because they make a product that nobody can compete with which would hurt consumer choices.
So in the short term the payment model for Dota 2 may be great for consumers.
In the long run however Dota 2 may be the only MOBA to choose from, which would be bad for gaming.
I don't think a small subgenre of RTS that sprung from a WC3 mod is gonna have an impact on all of gaming, even though MOBAs may be really popular right now. It's like the modern shooter wave, it's gonna stop eventually. So no, I don't think this is gonna harm "gaming" at all. It might harm the MOBA genre, but I don't play em so I don't really care nor have any insight there.
[QUOTE=Numidium;36963150]I don't think a small subgenre of RTS that sprung from a WC3 mod is gonna have an impact on all of gaming, even though MOBAs may be really popular right now. It's like the modern shooter wave, it's gonna stop eventually. So no, I don't think this is gonna harm "gaming" at all. It might harm the MOBA genre, but I don't play em so I don't really care nor have any insight there.[/QUOTE]
But if the model is harmful to one genre, what happens if it is expanded to other genres?
What would happen to the racing genre if valve made a racing game that was really high quality and completely free to play?
Should one company be able to block out most of their competition from an entire genre just because they have something like steam to make most of their money?
[QUOTE=Valnar;36963275]But if the model is harmful to one genre, what happens if it is expanded to other genres?
What would happen to the racing genre if valve made a racing game that was really high quality and completely free to play?
Should one company be able to block out most of their competition from an entire genre just because they have something like steam to make most of their money?[/QUOTE]
You act as if Valve has the capability to make a nigh-on perfect game in every genre. The reason DOTA 2 may be good is probably cause they bought that mouse guy who made the original, I doubt Valve themselves could make DOTA 2 good enough to outclass every other DOTA. You also have to consider that the dozen million LOL players are already invested monetarily into their accounts, so switching to F2P is not actually that attractive to them. F2P games have existed in all genres for years, I'm yet to see a genre destroyed by an exceptional F2P game, and I doubt it'll happen to MOBAs.
Making Portal free for over a year didn't kill all other puzzle games either. And making TF2 free didn't kill all other shooters. You're overreacting and buying into the recent Valve fearmongering.
[editline]27th July 2012[/editline]
You also have to consider how small MOBAs are compared to other genres.
No.. the only way they can fuck up Dota2 is by flooding it with boring/stupid-looking cosmetic items.
[editline]27th July 2012[/editline]
Dota2 being a high-quality game, the cosmetic creations should also be high-quality. So far like 1/3 of them are not.
Doubt it.
One of the biggest reasons I've seen that makes people play LOL is that their learning curve is not as hard to grasp as the original DOTA is.
DotA 2 on the other hand is taylored for your hardcore DotA players, improving their overall experience with better gfx, sfx and better gameplay experience (Reconnected after dropping out of a match, QWER as skill hotkeys, minimap that allows drawings and other little aspects).
Also, loads of people have already spent quite a buck on LoL, as stated by previous posters.
[QUOTE=JohnnyOnFlame;36963593]Doubt it.
One of the biggest reasons I've seen that makes people play LOL is that their learning curve is not as hard to grasp as the original DOTA is.
DotA 2 on the other hand is taylored for your hardcore DotA players, improving their overall experience with better gfx, sfx and better gameplay experience (Reconnected after dropping out of a match, QWER as skill hotkeys, minimap that allows drawings and other little aspects).
Also, loads of people have already spent quite a buck on LoL, as stated by previous posters.[/QUOTE]
LoL will probably survive purely on the fact that it was there before Dota 2 was and people invested in it like you said.
But can you explain how new mobas will be able to compete with Dota 2 after it is released?
[QUOTE=Valnar;36962926]First and foremost I want to make it clear that in my argument I will not be talking about anything specific about the actual game play of Dota 2. I am just focusing on the business plan as I see it and how that relates to consumers, Steam and gaming in general.
Second I also want to say that I don't hate Valve, Steam or any game made by Valve, in fact I really enjoy Valve and Steam, I only want to bring up a discussion about a possible harmful effect Valve may have on gaming.
[/quote]
I don't see how your argument has any basis. How could Dota 2 being free to play be detrimental to the MOBA genre if League of Legends is also free to play and hugely successful? HoN is also free to play and somewhat successful. I would argue that the F2P model is beneficial to smaller game companies, as it introduces a larger audience that would have not have played otherwise.
[QUOTE=gamefreek76;36963787]I don't see how your argument has any basis. How could Dota 2 being free to play be detrimental to the MOBA genre if League of Legends is also free to play and hugely successful? HoN is also free to play and somewhat successful. I would argue that the F2P model is beneficial to smaller game companies, as it introduces a larger audience that would have not have played otherwise.[/QUOTE]
The difference is in how they do F2P.
Dota 2 is completely free to play in all aspects that matter to game play.
LoL is F2P, but sells full access to their heroes for real money or by spending a lot of time playing the game.
HoN was originally a pay game, with a normal price point.
Than it became f2p with a hero rotation and you could pay a price to access all heroes.
Now just a week ago HoN became fully free with all heroes, not long after the announcement that Dota 2 would have all heroes free.
[QUOTE=Valnar;36963893]The difference is in how they do F2P.
Dota 2 is completely free to play in all aspects that matter to game play.
LoL is F2P, but sells full access to their heroes for real money or by spending a lot of time playing the game.
HoN was originally a pay game, with a normal price point.
Than it became f2p with a hero rotation and you could pay a price to access all heroes.
Now just a week ago HoN became fully free with all heroes, [B]not long after the announcement that Dota 2 would have all heroes free.[/B][/QUOTE]
I don't think this was ever announced, just obvious as fuck??
I mean, Dota 2 being F2P was announced like 4 months ago. It seems like you're trying to make HoN look worse.
[QUOTE=AlphaGunman;36963932]i don't think this was ever announced, just obvious as fuck??[/QUOTE]
Here is an article about the announcement. The announcement came when they opened the in game store.
[URL]http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/01/dota-2-free-to-play-store/[/URL]
also the FAQ for Dota 2 spoils of war which says that the game is completely free, game and heroes.
[URL]http://www.dota2.com/spoilsofwar/faq[/URL]
[QUOTE=Valnar;36963988]Here is an article about the announcement. The announcement came when they opened the in game store.
[url]http://www.pcgamer.com/2012/06/01/dota-2-free-to-play-store/[/url][/QUOTE]
Seems I'm wrong then.
I don't see how DOTA 2 being F2P can "harm gaming". If anything, wouldn't people start doing more 100% F2P games, while selling only cosmetics, because it (hypothetically) worked so well for DOTA 2? It's unlikely, but so is DOTA 2 harming things.
Well you cant really compete with it when it comes to making a straight up dota close, mostly because Icefrog works for valve, and everyone wants to see the original heroes.
But we have to look at the other types of mobas there are out there.
We have Super monday night combat, which is quite excelent.
And we have Smite, which is an upcoming 3rd person dota game, though not clone because of new unique heroes, map and so on:
[video=youtube;-4hL9ct2QEk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4hL9ct2QEk&feature=plcp[/video]
League of Legends won't just die out because of Dota 2's business model. Sure, Dota 2 is in my opinion a better game, but it'll be hard for people who played League for so long to just abandon all of the work they put into that game such as unlocking all of the champions, runes, masteries and all that crap. Not to mention how hard it is to learn Dota's gameplay in the first place.
I don't really know much about mobas, but I don't think everyone is going to flock to Dota 2 just because it's free and made by Valve. I have a bunch of friends who all have it but never really got into because they already play LoL and don't feel like dealing with the learning curve.
I don't know what's the English expression for it, but in German if a store lowers its prices to edge out the still new and fresh competition because of its stamina, it's called Choking.
I don't think Valve is Choking with DOTA2, I think they use this model to experiment with anti-piracy (how to pirate a f2p multiplayer game?), microtransactions and user-generated content, as lifted from TF2 and continued in Portal 2. DOTA 2 and CS:GO are two remakes with focus on the competitive scene, but one will use the old model and the other the new. I doubt that's coincidence.
I think their F2P model has a permanent place in the games it's released in, not to edge out competitors while Valve has the monetary stamina. TF2 is making tons of money. That's the inversion of the drawback of Choking, that's just a well-executed business model.
But regardless of intent, you're interested in the effects. The way I see it:
Worst Case Scenario
DOTA2 becomes the next WoW, people don't want to move over to a competitor because they don't want to trash their chars and item build knowledge and start at 0 again; can still be de-throned if the competitive market creates different/more fun games instead of clones. The latter is likely if you see how Awesomenauts and SMNC are currently building the genre. Doom-clones became FPS, and DOTA-clones will become their own genre as well once they branch out. Valve's biggest risk because they can't force people to create DOTA clones.
Meh Case Scenario
Valve will keep the game top-notch and constantly raise the bar for the genre, thus competitors aren't successful. Which is sad, but at the end of the day the quality of games (DOTA2 + failed dethroners) has improved, which is good for the consumer.
Best Case Scenario
People take note of how Valve makes money and branch out the genre to stay competitive, game quality improves, income improves, we get tons of F2Ps. In this universe there's also flying kittens dispensing harps.
[b]TL;DR: Other DOTA-clones will suffer once we have a new king of the DOTA-clones, but the genre won't.[/b]
We are talking about a Genre here that has started and primarly been free 2 play ever since its creation, DotA has been free all this time, League is free completely (cosmetic items fund it only) HoN took up the model after a while and Dota 2 stuck with the F2P Model because of fans/similar games in the genre.
Considering League and HoN have since gathered a following of their own with there own memes and jokes i highly doubt they will switch to Dota 2, just like Dota players didnt really like/switch much to League or HoN, they stuck with Dota.
So no, and considering TF2 went F2P and games like Modern Warfare, Battlefield 3 and others still thrive (Yes, bad example with the oversaturated market that is FPS games) i highly doubt this would change anything.
I mean if people just went out to play F2P games tf2 would be in the billions of players/
[QUOTE=MxOAgentJohnson;36965464]We are talking about a Genre here that has started and primarly been free 2 play ever since its creation, DotA has been free all this time, League is free completely (cosmetic items fund it only) HoN took up the model after a while and Dota 2 stuck with the F2P Model because of fans/similar games in the genre.
Considering League and HoN have since gathered a following of their own with there own memes and jokes i highly doubt they will switch to Dota 2, just like Dota players didnt really like/switch much to League or HoN, they stuck with Dota.
So no, and considering TF2 went F2P and games like Modern Warfare, Battlefield 3 and others still thrive (Yes, bad example with the oversaturated market that is FPS games) i highly doubt this would change anything.
I mean if people just went out to play F2P games tf2 would be in the billions of players/[/QUOTE]
League isn't completely free.
Heroes that aren't a part of that week's rotation are locked to players unless they either pay the money or time to unlock them.
But as said earlier LoL will likely survive because it already has a following, a new moba will probably struggle to have a similar payment method to LoL once Dota 2 is out, even if it has unique aspects.
Also considering TF2, how many new multiplayer fps games have come out and been success?
Modern Warfare 3 and Battlefield 3 both already had pre-established fanbases from earlier games. How many new multiplayer fps games, in the last few years, have there been that did not already have a fan base and done well?
[QUOTE=Valnar;36965856]League isn't completely free.
Heroes that aren't a part of that week's rotation are locked to players unless they either pay the money or time to unlock them.[/QUOTE]
Please read before replying.
League is COMPLETELY free besides cosmetics, you can buy champs yes but you dont have to because you can earn them, so League is completely 100% free to play and to earn stuff, just not cosmetics which dont make a game
[QUOTE=MxOAgentJohnson;36965917]Please read before replying.
League is COMPLETELY free besides cosmetics, you can buy champs yes but you dont have to because you can earn them, so League is completely 100% free to play and to earn stuff, just not cosmetics which dont make a game[/QUOTE]
I consider having to either pay or "earn" stuff as making the game not free
That's like saying Tribes Ascend or countless other games which allow both transactions with either ingame or real money to be "completely" free
But they are, they are completley free, cosmetics dont change gameplay therefore they dont give you an advantage.
However, All Points Bulletin isnt because you have to buy special weapons to gain an advantage.
Team Fortress 2, Dota 2, League of Legends are Completely 100% free, but cosmetics cost, cosmetics dnot change a games gameplay. Dotn give someone else an advantage and in most cases with Dota 2, most items can be earnt ingame after a round anyway but they still dont change gameplay.
[QUOTE=Valnar;36965856]Also considering TF2, how many new multiplayer fps games have come out and been success?[/QUOTE]
Blacklight Retribution?
Dota 2 is forced to be Free to play because LoL made this genre a free to play one.
I'm pretty sure HoN and LoL are the reasons why no other Dotalikes can ever be successful besides DotA, Dota 2, and the other Dotalikes in China. With this genre, it depends on what game comes first, rather than which game is better. Dota 2 is the only exception though because both DotA and Valve have a pre-established fan base.
Dota 2 is not Forced to be F2P, neither did LoL make the genre free to play.
HoN quite frankly was a poor ripoff and was dying because of League, League didnt make a Genre that was, tbh, already F2P being a Warcraft 3 map, free 2 play just because it was a game on its own engine and actually published.
Dota started a Genre, and it set the standards there and then to be honest, you cant say League made a Already F2P genre F2P.
Yes i know you couldnt exactly sell a Warcraft 3 map but if given the oppotunity i would definately say IceFrog would of made the original Dota a retail game, look at all the sellouts during the Goldnsrc era.
it encourages mobas which are shit for everyone involved
[QUOTE=MxOAgentJohnson;36966826]Dota 2 is not Forced to be F2P, neither did LoL make the genre free to play.
HoN quite frankly was a poor ripoff and was dying because of League, League didnt make a Genre that was, tbh, already F2P being a Warcraft 3 map, free 2 play just because it was a game on its own engine and actually published.
Dota started a Genre, and it set the standards there and then to be honest, you cant say League made a Already F2P genre F2P.
Yes i know you couldnt exactly sell a Warcraft 3 map but if given the oppotunity i would definately say IceFrog would of made the original Dota a retail game, look at all the sellouts during the Goldnsrc era.[/QUOTE]
How did DotA make the genre a F2P one? DotA is a mod.
Because it created an entirely new Genre and set the standard for future ones, most Mobas are a ripoff of Dota because you cant do much differently without doing something completely original like Super Monday Night Combat.
And as i said, given the situation it created a genre and to this day Dota is free to play, however if given the opportunity there is no doubt in my mind that IceFrog would of made it retail and then it would of set a standard of being a Retail series, then league would of set the genre as F2P with enough influence that is and if events unfolded as they did
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