Turkey: Israel is a terrorist state that massacres children - Polidicks

[QUOTE] [IMG]http://nationalpostnews.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/tayyip-erdogan.jpg?w=620[/IMG] [B]ISTANBUL — Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan accused the United Nations on Monday of failing to act over the deadly Israeli air bombardments of Gaza, calling Israeli a "terrorist state" that "massacres innocent children".[/B] He accused the UN Security Council of "turning a blind eye" to the suffering of Muslims across the world and called for "sincere action" to end Israel's strikes on Gaza, where 90 Palestinians died since violence erupted on Wednesday, while three Israelis have been killed in militant rocket fire. The international community is watching "as Israel violently massacres innocent children in Gaza," Erdogan said in an address to religious leaders of Muslim countries gathered in Istanbul, labelling Israel "a terrorist state". Erdogan emerged as a staunch advocate of the Palestinian cause in January 2009, when he stormed out of a Davos panel over Israel's blockade of the impoverished Gaza Strip. Ties between Ankara and Tel Aviv were further strained after Israeli commandos raided a Gaza-bound Turkish aid flotilla in the Mediterranean in May 2010, killing nine Turks on board. Erdogan also said he did not trust the United Nations. "The fate of seven billion people hangs the words of leaders of five countries," he said, complaining about a lack of representation for Muslim countries on the UN Security Council. "If you ask me how much I trust the UN, well, I don't," Erdogan said. "It is a structure created under war conditions, its manifestation today is not fair, the structure is just not fair."[/QUOTE] [URL="http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i5X7F40V78upvkdL8TryCLszXVTw"]source[/URL]

[QUOTE=The golden;38521612]Good. Someone's gotta say it.[/QUOTE] clearly [quote]He accused the UN Security Council of "turning a blind eye" to the suffering of Muslims across the world[/quote] [editline]19th November 2012[/editline] I guess this makes the US a terrorist state that kills children too

God, I don't even know what to think anymore. It's such a cluster-fuck where [B]everything[/B] is being distorted on both sides and GAHH.

That shock when you realize its not a sensationalist headline.

[QUOTE=The golden;38521612]Good. Someone's gotta say it.[/QUOTE] because he's [I]totaaaaaally[/I] right

[QUOTE=Zuimzado;38521650]because he's [I]totaaaaaally[/I] right[/QUOTE] It may be a bit radical but it's closer than saying they are defending them selves by bombing civilians.

[QUOTE=Aide;38521695]It may be a bit radical but it's closer than saying they are defending them selves by bombing civilians.[/QUOTE] But apparently nobody wants to define what firing rockets from civilian areas is? Is that defending themselves by using civilians as shields?

US position on Turkeys position. [video=youtube;ULMQba10J4w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULMQba10J4w[/video]

[QUOTE=scout1;38521710]But apparently nobody wants to define what firing rockets from civilian areas is? Is that defending themselves by using civilians as shields?[/QUOTE] Hamas (terrorist organization to many) vs Israel. Why should Israel react to Hamas by killing citizens?

[QUOTE=The Baconator;38521732]Hamas (terrorist organization to many) vs Israel. Why should Israel react to Hamas by killing citizens?[/QUOTE] By 'killing civilians' you mean bombing the areas Hamas is suspected, confirmed, or alleged (etc) to use, I am going to presume. There's not exactly many other options, and all of them are shit. Do you want them to maintain a continuous military occupation of the area and crack down on everything? Do you want them to level the place? Do you have the magical solution that doesn't throw away lives?

[QUOTE=scout1;38521755]By 'killing civilians' you mean bombing the areas Hamas is suspected, confirmed, or alleged (etc) to use, I am going to presume. There's not exactly many other options, and all of them are shit. Do you want them to maintain a continuous military occupation of the area and crack down on everything? Do you want them to level the place? Do you have the magical solution that doesn't throw away lives?[/QUOTE] They could find a diplomatic agreement. Such as removing the blockade and any reason to "resist/struggle".

[QUOTE=scout1;38521710]But apparently nobody wants to define what firing rockets from civilian areas is? Is that defending themselves by using civilians as shields?[/QUOTE] Both sides are at fault, ignoring the actions of one of them just because the other has done something wrong is stupid whichever one you ignore. The difference is that Hamas can't be dealt with at the diplomatic level while Israel can. Israel making a big show with its attacks doesn't work as scare tactics, polarises the diplomatic community further and inevitably gives the specious impression that they're bombing the crap out of them.

[QUOTE=ewitwins;38521640]God, I don't even know what to think anymore. It's such a cluster-fuck where [B]everything[/B is being distorted on both sides and GAHH.[/QUOTE] "Both sides" distort everything in every scenario going back to the beginning of time. Best to get use to it. [editline]20th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=laserguided;38521833]They could find a diplomatic agreement. Such as removing the blockade and any reason to "resist/struggle".[/QUOTE] If there were a diplomatic solution to 60+ years of conflict, I think we would have one by now.

[QUOTE=laserguided;38521833]They could find a diplomatic agreement. Such as removing the blockade and any reason to "resist/struggle".[/QUOTE] This isn't just a fight for Palestine that are trying to destroy all of Israel.

[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;38521855]"Both sides" distort everything in every scenario going back to the beginning of time. Best to get use to it. [editline]20th November 2012[/editline] If there were a diplomatic solution to 60+ years of conflict, I think we would have one by now.[/QUOTE] Israel is run by ultra nationalists. I'm sure Hamas would be more then willing to have the blockade lifted to stop firing rockets into Israel. [editline]19th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Burgervich;38521885]This isn't just a fight for Palestine that are trying to destroy all of Israel.[/QUOTE] No they aren't.

[QUOTE=scout1;38521710]But apparently nobody wants to define what firing rockets from civilian areas is? Is that defending themselves by using civilians as shields?[/QUOTE] You're regurgitating a baseless propaganda liner. This 'claim' perpetuated by Israel is used to [URL="http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html"]vindicate themselves after bombing civilians[/URL], it has been debunked as false by a large number of Human Rights organizations and other NGOs after thorough investigations. Amnesty International did the most exhaustive investigation of the charge of human shielding after Israel's invasion of Gaza in 2008. I quote: [URL="http://www.hybridstates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mde150152009en.pdf"] "Contrary to repeat allegations by Israeli officials of the use of human shields, Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters. Amnesty International found no evidence that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas that were commandeered by militants."[/URL] Using hospital sites, schools and other sensitive targets to launch rockets were also debunked in pages 30-38 in the report. [QUOTE=scout1;38521755]By 'killing civilians' you mean bombing the areas Hamas is suspected, confirmed, or alleged (etc) to use, I am going to presume. There's not exactly many other options, and all of them are shit. Do you want them to maintain a continuous military occupation of the area and crack down on everything? Do you want them to level the place? Do you have the magical solution that doesn't throw away lives?[/QUOTE] No he means killing civilians. U.N. schools and hospitals have no Hamas presence, they provide zero strategic importance to Israel.

[QUOTE=laserguided;38521833]They could find a diplomatic agreement. Such as removing the blockade and any reason to "resist/struggle".[/QUOTE] Hamas and all the other smaller factions will always fight. The only thing they can do is not give them ammunition, which is done in the literal sense but not in the metaphorical sense through the blockade. It gives them motive, but lessens their ability. If they wanted to remove the blockade, it would require a period of de-escalation and a good enough guarantee that shit wouldn't hit the fan when they did. That's hard to achieve and removing the blockade prematurely would give you the same shit you have now, only with Hamas doing more damage, no-one wants that.

[QUOTE=scout1;38521710]But apparently nobody wants to define what firing rockets from civilian areas is? Is that defending themselves by using civilians as shields?[/QUOTE] [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1225857&p=38517517&viewfull=1#post38517517[/url] Edit: Well, Starpluck beat me to it.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;38521900]You're regurgitating a baseless propaganda liner. This 'claim' perpetuated by Israel is used to [URL="http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1870087,00.html"]vindicate themselves after bombing civilians[/URL], it has been debunked as false by a large number of Human Rights organizations and other NGOs after thorough investigations. Amnesty International did the most exhaustive investigation of the charge of human shielding after Israel's invasion of Gaza in 2008. I quote: [URL="http://www.hybridstates.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mde150152009en.pdf"] "Contrary to repeat allegations by Israeli officials of the use of human shields, Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other Palestinian fighters directed the movement of civilians to shield military objectives from attacks. Amnesty International found no evidence that Hamas or other armed groups forced residents to stay in or around buildings used by fighters. Amnesty International found no evidence that fighters prevented residents from leaving buildings or areas that were commandeered by militants."[/URL] [/QUOTE] Without nitpicking Amnesty's wording, I'll disagree. If the rockets are fired from urban areas with the understanding that the rocketeers will be bombed, that is using civilians a shield. I won't bother to go into military precision and the fallibility of 'smart bombs' and save everyone all that, but simply if they bring the fight to the city, yes, there will be civilian casualties. This is generally what happens when rockets and bombs and missiles are slung back and forth. I am not trying to say that every casualty ever in Gaza (and so on and so forth) is caused by Hamas, nor every by Israel. But the common conception is that Israeli pilots appear to be going over cities, closing their eyes, and pressing the release trigger. (I'll go ahead and put here that I didn't bother to read the entire report before replying, so give me a page number if there's something obvious. Neither do I choose to contest whether or not certain targets were bombed.)

[QUOTE=laserguided;38521833]They could find a diplomatic agreement. Such as removing the blockade and any reason to "resist/struggle".[/QUOTE] This came up in the other thread earlier, too: [QUOTE=OvB;38512744]Well if it's Israel suggesting the peace keeping force, I'd think Palestine would be foolish not to accept it. If it's peace they want, this would seem to be the best way of getting it. At least for a while.[/QUOTE] Hamas would probably not accept it. When Shaul Mofaz (I think he was whatever they have instead of senators there, but I don't really know much about their politics) proposed that they end the violence and have talks about creating a Palestinian state with the condition that Hamas recognizes Israel's right to exist and Israel stops counting Hamas as a terrorist group, the Hamas leaders rejected it as [URL=http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-rejects-mofaz-call-to-talk-as-zionist-vulgarity-1.4572]"zionist vugarity"[/URL]. [QUOTE]In its official response, Hamas called Mofaz's offer "Zionist vulgarity" and said it would never recognize Israel or give legitimacy to the occupation. "Any negotiation with the Zionist enemy regarding rights and legitimate recognition would only give it further excuse to commit crimes," said Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhoum.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Devodiere;38521906]Hamas and all the other smaller factions will always fight. The only thing they can do is not give them ammunition, which is done in the literal sense but not in the metaphorical sense through the blockade. It gives them motive, but lessens their ability. If they wanted to remove the blockade, it would require a period of de-escalation and a good enough guarantee that shit wouldn't hit the fan when they did. That's hard to achieve and removing the blockade prematurely would give you the same shit you have now, only with Hamas doing more damage, no-one wants that.[/QUOTE] Setting a baseless requirement to give innocent people adequate supplies to live is childish.

[QUOTE=Mike42012;38522249]Setting a baseless requirement to give innocent people adequate supplies to live is childish.[/QUOTE] I really hate when people pose another slightly related argument and are vague about it. If you want to do that, refute it rather than this shit. I think what you're arguing is that the blockade prevents adequate supplies from going in, which is mostly true. The bureaucratic shit associated with the blockade along with incompetence and not wanting to pay for absolutely everything themselves leads to shortages, intermittent power and a generally fucked up situation. There's still the issue that they'd be fucked up regardless of what happened. They're a densely packed microstate with only gas power plants and their already insufficient industry collapsed. Israel can supply them with plenty of shit and let in all the aid they want, but they're always going to be reliant on aid and even if they didn't have a blockade, they'd have a large portion of the population working in Israel anyway. Israel isn't the exclusive cause of it and while they could improve the situation a bit, they could never fix everything.

[QUOTE=scout1;38522056]Without nitpicking Amnesty's wording, I'll disagree. If the rockets are fired from urban areas with the understanding that the rocketeers will be bombed, that is using civilians a shield. I won't bother to go into military precision and the fallibility of 'smart bombs' and save everyone all that, but simply if they bring the fight to the city, yes, there will be civilian casualties. This is generally what happens when rockets and bombs and missiles are slung back and forth. I am not trying to say that every casualty ever in Gaza (and so on and so forth) is caused by Hamas, nor every by Israel. But the common conception is that Israeli pilots appear to be going over cities, closing their eyes, and pressing the release trigger. (I'll go ahead and put here that I didn't bother to read the entire report before replying, so give me a page number if there's something obvious. Neither do I choose to contest whether or not certain targets were bombed.)[/QUOTE] Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, even operating in Gazan urban areas is not conclusive evidence of intent of human shields. Most of the rockets are launched from open fields anyways. Even if that was the case, that still doesn't justify the excessive casualty rate because the far majority of dead Gazan civilians aren't even from being within the "proximity" of a rocket launch site. They're from bombed schools, civilian homes, police stations, prisons, newstations and various other institutions that are of no strategic interest to Israel.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;38522557]Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, even operating in Gazan urban areas is not conclusive evidence of intent of human shields. Most of the rockets are launched from open fields anyways. Even if that was the case, that still doesn't justify the excessive casualty rate because the far majority of dead Gazan civilians aren't even from being within the "proximity" of a rocket launch site. They're from bombed schools, civilian homes, police stations, prisons, newstations and various other institutions that are of no strategic interest to Israel.[/QUOTE] You wanna pony up some more sources for these?

Why don't they just use gunships instead of fucking bombs if they're worried about launch sites being near civilians. Cannon - radius 10m and light urban damage. Motherfucking 1000lb bomb - damage Obviously they do not care about civilian casualties.

[QUOTE=Starpluck;38522557]Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on earth, even operating in Gazan urban areas is not conclusive evidence of intent of human shields. Most of the rockets are launched from open fields anyways. Even if that was the case, that still doesn't justify the excessive casualty rate because the far majority of dead Gazan civilians aren't even from being within the "proximity" of a rocket launch site. They're from bombed schools, civilian homes, police stations, prisons, newstations and various other institutions that are of no strategic interest to Israel.[/QUOTE] They don't have to use people like a riot shield for it to be obvious they take very few precautions about civilians. They fight like normal guerillas, meaning they hide among citizens, don't differentiate armed personnel and generally make themselves not seen. A fair tactic, but when we're criticising Israel for using a bit more force than they needed to, it seems wrong not to put a bit of the blame on Hamas taking no care whatsoever in protecting civilians.

[QUOTE=scout1;38522580]You wanna pony up some more sources for these?[/QUOTE] I'm pretty busy and it takes time so I cba to retrieve them all but I can provide assurances that sources and statistics exist for all my claims except my claim that most rockets launched are from open fields.

Oh come on, I'm not one to stand up for Israel but as in the current operation they're doing I support them. The reason the 1st Gaza War happened was because yearly increases of rockets being launched at Israel to the point in late 2008 it was getting ridiculous so they went in and did the best they could to take out the perpetrators. Hamas purposely and successfully uses average Palestinian people as human shields and whenever a sad occurrence of this shield getting hurt everyone immediately condemns Israel but fighting them isn't exactly easy with the tactics they pull. After the Gaza war rocket attacks plummeted in the following year and stayed low for a while but over the past year and a bit they've increased dramatically so here we are with basically the 2nd Gaza War to crack down hard on these rocket attacks yet again.

[QUOTE=laserguided;38522601]Why don't they just use gunships instead of fucking bombs if they're worried about launch sites being near civilians. Cannon - radius 10m and light urban damage. Motherfucking 1000lb bomb - damage Obviously they do not care about civilian casualties.[/QUOTE] Do you mean helicopter gunships or airplane gunships? For airplanes, I don't see them being any better at accuracy at perceived missile targets than bombs are. As for helicopters, while they would probably have better accuracy, they'll also be more susceptible to fire from the surrounding area to bring them down. That is, of course, assuming that Israel isn't targeting the civilian populations on purpose. (I'm sure Gunfox will come in and blow away everything I just said on aircraft, though.)

[QUOTE=laserguided;38522601]Why don't they just use gunships instead of fucking bombs if they're worried about launch sites being near civilians. Cannon - radius 10m and light urban damage. Motherfucking 1000lb bomb - damage Obviously they do not care about civilian casualties.[/QUOTE] Really man? Pretty sure most of the missiles they use have a 50kg payload and as I said in the other thread, they do take out a single place rather than a whole city block. The problem is when they house all their women and children with the soldiers rather than in barracks, they can't exactly knock out the first floor and leave the second intact now can they?