• New Hell-questioning book from popular Evangelist
    34 replies, posted
[quote]As part of a series on peacemaking, in late 2007, Pastor Rob Bell's Mars Hill Bible Church put on an art exhibit about the search for peace in a broken world. It was just the kind of avant-garde project that had helped power Mars Hill's growth (the Michigan church attracts 7,000 people each Sunday) as a nontraditional congregation that emphasizes discussion rather than dogmatic teaching. An artist in the show had included a quotation from Mohandas Gandhi. Hardly a controversial touch, one would have thought. But one would have been wrong. A visitor to the exhibit had stuck a note next to the Gandhi quotation: "Reality check: He's in hell." Bell was struck. Really? he recalls thinking. Gandhi's in hell? He is? We have confirmation of this? Somebody knows this? Without a doubt? And that somebody decided to take on the responsibility of letting the rest of us know? So begins Bell's controversial new best seller, Love Wins: A Book About Heaven, Hell, and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived. Works by Evangelical Christian pastors tend to be pious or at least on theological message. The standard Christian view of salvation through the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth is summed up in the Gospel of John, which promises "eternal life" to "whosoever believeth in Him." Traditionally, the key is the acknowledgment that Jesus is the Son of God, who, in the words of the ancient creed, "for us and for our salvation came down from heaven ... and was made man." In the Evangelical ethos, one either accepts this and goes to heaven or refuses and goes to hell. Bell, a tall, 40-year-old son of a Michigan federal judge, begs to differ. He suggests that the redemptive work of Jesus may be universal — meaning that, as his book's subtitle puts it, "every person who ever lived" could have a place in heaven, whatever that turns out to be. Such a simple premise, but with Easter at hand, this slim, lively book has ignited a new holy war in Christian circles and beyond. When word of Love Wins reached the Internet, one conservative Evangelical pastor, John Piper, tweeted, "Farewell Rob Bell," unilaterally attempting to evict Bell from the Evangelical community. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, says Bell's book is "theologically disastrous. Any of us should be concerned when a matter of theological importance is played with in a subversive way." In North Carolina, a young pastor was fired by his church for endorsing the book. The traditionalist reaction is understandable, for Bell's arguments about heaven and hell raise doubts about the core of the Evangelical worldview, changing the common understanding of salvation so much that Christianity becomes more of an ethical habit of mind than a faith based on divine revelation. "When you adopt universalism and erase the distinction between the church and the world," says Mohler, "then you don't need the church, and you don't need Christ, and you don't need the cross. This is the tragedy of nonjudgmental mainline liberalism, and it's Rob Bell's tragedy in this book too." Particularly galling to conservative Christian critics is that Love Wins is not an attack from outside the walls of the Evangelical city but a mutiny from within — a rebellion led by a charismatic, popular and savvy pastor with a following. Is Bell's Christianity — less judgmental, more fluid, open to questioning the most ancient of assumptions — on an inexorable rise? "I have long wondered if there is a massive shift coming in what it means to be a Christian," Bell says. "Something new is in the air."[/quote] Source is Time: [url]http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2065080,00.html[/url] Definitely not the hardest news story, but I thought I'd post it here anyway. There's more to the article, but it's really just talking about Bell's life instead of his upcoming book. Still an interesting read. Especially coming from a pastor, I think this is a welcome change next to stories of the pope ranting about how condoms are evil, horrible things instead of just bits of plastic used to prevent the spread of STDs and pregnancy. I have never attended or seen one of his sermons, but if the article is correct, then discussion versus straight preaching is definitely a step in the right direction. I absolutely hate how people go to their place of worship to be yelled at for an hour, instead of taking the time to understand their chosen doctrine on their own terms.
[quote]Bell was struck.[/quote] [img]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/zing.png[/img] On topic; I don't think what this guy has written about is Christian at all if you don't have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, since that's the major point of Christianity. Although talking about and being critical of your beliefs Is always good, it's something more people need to do.
So he's a Universalist now?
[QUOTE=Nerts;29218225][img_thumb]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/zing.png[/img_thumb] On topic; I don't think what this guy has written about is Christian at all if you don't have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, since that's the major point of Christianity. Although talking about and being critical of your beliefs Is always good, it's something more people need to do.[/QUOTE] I totally agree with you. Whatever kind of God exists, I don't think he/she/it/whathaveyou would want humans with logical minds to just blindly accept their faith. Yeah, that's why they call it faith, but if we were created, we were created with minds, not without them.
"Something is dreadfully wrong in this country: In a November 1990 Gallup Poll of 1,108 Americans, 78 percent said they believed there was a place where people who had led good lives were eternally rewarded, and 60 percent believed there was a place where those who led bad lives and died without repentance were eternally damned. I find this profoundly disturbing." -George Carlin
[quote=Mohler]When you adopt universalism and erase the distinction between the church and the world then you don't need the church, and you don't need Christ, and you don't need the cross. This is the tragedy of nonjudgmental mainline liberalism, and it's Rob Bell's tragedy in this book too.[/quote] Really? You need to exclude people to have others share your beliefs? Somehow, "changing the common understanding of salvation so much that Christianity becomes more of an ethical habit of mind than a faith based on divine revelation," sounds pretty awesome.
[QUOTE=CatFodder;29218933]So he's a Universalist now?[/QUOTE] Pretty much :v: Its now Unitarian Universalist by the way.
[QUOTE=Penultimate;29218967]I totally agree with you. Whatever kind of God exists, I don't think he/she/it/whathaveyou would want humans with logical minds to just blindly accept their faith. Yeah, that's why they call it faith, but if we were created, we were created with minds, not without them.[/QUOTE] [quote]Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed."[/quote] Blessed is he who has not seen, but believes anyway. And Christians are meant to be very critcal of everything they hear even from each other. You are meant to check everything against what is in the Bible. It's not blindly believing in something you just heard.
[QUOTE=Nerts;29218225][img_thumb]http://www.facepunch.com/fp/ratings/zing.png[/img_thumb] On topic; [B]I don't think what this guy has written about is Christian at all if you don't have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven, since that's the major point of Christianity. [/B] Although talking about and being critical of your beliefs Is always good, it's something more people need to do.[/QUOTE] Untrue. At least here, catholic church says that Christianity[B] isn't[/B] the only way leading to redemption.
Anyone care to point me to the part in the bible where hell exists [B]before[/B] judgment day? [editline]17th April 2011[/editline] [quote=wiki]"[B]The dead know not anything[/B] ... Their love, their hatred, and their envy is now perished" (Eccl. 9:5); "In death there is no remembrance of thee; in the grave, who shall give thee thanks?" (Psa. 6:5); "The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence" (Psalm 115:17); "The grave cannot praise thee: death cannot celebrate thee" (Isaiah 38:18). Gospel of John 3:13 which states that "No man hath ascended up to heaven" and even "David is not ascended into the heavens" and Book of Acts 2:34 states that "The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's, but the earth hath he given to the children of men" (Psalm 115:16). While they do believe these Christians are dead, they believe they will rise again, having "died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them" (Epistle to the Hebrews 11:13). In this view, Judgment occurs, "[B]when the seventh angel sounds, "Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged[/B], and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets" (Book of Revelation 11:15-18).[/quote]
I believe getting into Heaven/Hell depends on whether or not you're a good person, and not on your religion (or the lack of it).
[QUOTE=Géza!;29222152]I believe getting into Heaven/Hell depends on whether or not you're a good person, and not on your religion (or the lack of it).[/QUOTE] "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36) No human is good enough to get into heaven by their own works. That's why most non-catholic Christians think The Vatican is a joke and doesn't even read the bible.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;29222539]"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36) No human is good enough to get into heaven by their own works. That's why most non-catholic Christians think The Vatican is a joke and doesn't even read the bible.[/QUOTE] John was an idiot /discussion
[QUOTE=Awesomecaek;29222572]John was an idiot /discussion[/QUOTE] so was jesus and god too, when you get right down to it
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;29222672]so was jesus and god too, when you get right down to it[/QUOTE] I agree that creating this humanity was a massive failure.
Yeah he should've gone with unicorns instead.
[QUOTE=Contag;29221351]Anyone care to point me to the part in the bible where hell exists [B]before[/B] judgment day? [editline]17th April 2011[/editline][/QUOTE] It never says that. It's a common misconception that heaven and hell exists now, which they don't. Well, heaven exists, I suppose.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;29220455]Blessed is he who has not seen, but believes anyway. And Christians are meant to be very critcal of everything they hear even from each other. You are meant to check everything against what is in the Bible. It's not blindly believing in something you just heard.[/QUOTE] But you blindly have to believe in the Bible, which makes being critical a bit moot.
Unitarian Universalism is such a joke.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;29220455]Blessed is he who has not seen, but believes anyway. And Christians are meant to be very critcal of everything they hear even from each other. You are meant to check everything against what is in the Bible. It's not blindly believing in something you just heard.[/QUOTE] you're right, you're only blindly accepting everything you read in a single book.
Atheists are wrong.
[QUOTE=humpalump;29232188]Atheists are wrong.[/QUOTE] Bad move
You know what? None of this would have happened apparently if two douche bags had just listen. And God can also hold one hell of a grudge.
[QUOTE=Thom12255;29222539]"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6) "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." (John 3:36) No human is good enough to get into heaven by their own works. That's why most non-catholic Christians think The Vatican is a joke and doesn't even read the bible.[/QUOTE] What a shitty god. "You can be the best person to ever live but if you don't believe in me and only me i'm sendin you to eternal torment"
We're in hell now One of the punishments in hell is being completely detached from god, right? Well I haven't heard or seen him around
Gandhi was still a racist and a misogynist who had inappropriate relations with younger girls, including his own niece.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;29234168]We're in hell now One of the punishments in hell is being completely detached from god, right? Well I haven't heard or seen him around[/QUOTE] My god. This place does feel like hell...
[QUOTE=Dr. Fishtastic;29234181]Gandhi was still a racist and a misogynist who had inappropriate relations with younger girls, including his own niece.[/QUOTE] Holy shit, really? Shows what I know. It just goes to show that no one is absolutely perfect. But that's actually pretty fucked up.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;29234168]We're in hell now One of the punishments in hell is being completely detached from god, right? Well I haven't heard or seen him around[/QUOTE] It's true! Even Satan is here! [img]http://www.inquisitr.com/wp-content/obama-satan.jpg[/img]
[quote] This is the tragedy of nonjudgmental mainline liberalism,...[/quote] Wow... really?
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