• Michigan Right-to-Work Protests "as big as Madison in 2011"- confirmed 4000, expecting "tens of thou
    54 replies, posted
No official count, but I'd bet it's going to be close to 10,000. Right now, there's over 4000 confirmed in one Facebook group, and I know that many, many unions are organizing mass transport. General Info: [quote]LANSING — Large numbers of Michigan State Police officers were around the Capitol building early this morning as Lansing braced for a day of protests related to controversial right-to-work legislation working its way through the state Legislature. Today’s protests are a precursor to much larger ones planned for Tuesday, when thousands of union activists are expected to converge at the Capitol and supporters of right-to-work legislation have also promised a strong presence there. [B]Union members took civil disobedience training in Detroit on Saturday to prepare for the protests.[/B] Parking meters along Capitol Avenue had bags over them today to prevent on-street parking, and the city of Lansing has [B]announced street closures around the Capitol for Tuesday[/B]. The grounds of the Capitol were empty shortly after 7 a.m., today, but that was expected to change this morning. The Michigan Nurses Association announced a 10:30 a.m. demonstration at which some of its members will appear on the Capitol steps with duct tape over their mouths. “This politically motivated legislation will only give corporations and CEOs more power to silence workers, including nurses,” spokeswoman Dawn Kettinger said in a news release. The Michigan Laborers are among the unions also expected to have a presence at the Capitol today, as they demonstrate and lobby lawmakers. [B]Right-to-work legislation makes it illegal to require financial support of a union as a condition of employment[/B]. [B]Gov. Rick Snyder, who since taking office in January 2011 insisted right-to-work legislation was too divisive and not on his agenda, set off a political firestorm Thursday when he announced legislation would be introduced in the Republican-controlled Legislature and he would sign it when it reached his desk[/B]. There were e[B]ight arrests at the Capitol Thursday after demonstrators tried to rush on the Senate floor and state police sealed the doors to the Capitol for several hours, saying the move was needed to control crowds and assure public safety. The doors were reopened in response to a court order.[/B] A total of three right-to-work bills received partial approval Thursday, with one passing the House and two passing the Senate. The Legislature could send the right-to-work package to Snyder as early as Tuesday, when the state House is scheduled to meet at 10 a.m. The Legislature doesn't return to session until tomorrow. It's possible that procedural moves on either side if the political isle could push the vote in the controversial legislation to Wednesday. Late Sunday, the state police said they would be strictly enforcing rules related to the use of Capitol facilities this week. Signs, amplifying equipment and noise-makers such as whistles are banned inside the Capitol, the department said in a news release. “Camping or sleeping overnight on the Capitol grounds is not allowed. Sleeping bags, blankets, pillows, and similar bedding items will not be permitted in the Capitol building.” In February and March of 2011, union activists occupied the Capitol building in Wisconsin after Gov. Scott Walker announced plans to strip public employees of collective bargaining rights. The state police also said “packages and briefcases suspected of concealing stolen items or contraband may be inspected if suspected to be capable of destructive or disruptive use within the building.”[/quote] [url=http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20121210/NEWS04/312100024/Michigan-right-to-work-protests-expected-today-at-Capitol?odyssey=tab%7Cmostpopular%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE]Lansing State Journal[/url] Obama Speaks: [quote]President Obama on Monday slammed Michigan Republicans for their rapid push to pass "right-to-work" legislation, joining other Democrats who were making a last-ditch play to oppose the bill in the final hours before its likely passage. The president weighed in on the debate for the first time during a stop at an engine plant outside Detroit. He departed from his usual discussion of fiscal crisis negotiations to chide local Republicans for pursuing legislation that would prohibit unions from demanding dues from workers. "I've just got to say this -- what we shouldn't be doing is trying to take away your rights to bargain for better wages," Obama said, to raucous applause. "These so-called 'right-to-work' laws, they don't have anything to do with economics. They have everything to do with politics. "What they're really talking about is they're giving you the right to work for less money," he said. The comments were part of a last-minute attempt by Democrats to pressure Republicans in Lansing. Michigan Democratic Sen. Carl Levin and House Democrats also met Monday with Republican Gov. Rick Snyder and said they urged him to veto the bills. Meanwhile, Michigan House leaders called for more debate before the GOP-led Legislature takes final action on the measures as early as Tuesday. Snyder, though, has committed to signing the bill. The Republican-led state House and Senate approved bills last week. Lansing authorities are bracing for an onslaught of protesters Tuesday. They have increased police presence and plan road closings and parking restrictions around the Capitol.[/quote] [url=http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/12/10/police-prepare-for-major-protests-in-michigan-capital-over-union-bill/]Fox News[/url] Teachers close school to protest: [quote]Two Michigan school districts will close Tuesday after hosts of teachers called out sick, apparently to join protests against efforts to pass right-to-work legislation in the state. The school district superintendent in Taylor, MI, a Detroit suburb, said the district would not have enough teachers to fill the district’s classrooms, according to local news reports. The Taylor Federation of Teachers is reportedly helping to organize the protests. A Taylor school official apparently told the district’s superintendent that teachers were calling in “sick” to head to Lansing for the protests. Superintendent Diane Allen told Local 4 there isn’t enough teachers to cover classrooms, so the all schools will be closed for the day. She said she had heard from a principal about where the teachers were going. She didn’t immediately give an exact number of staff who had called off work. The state House and Senate approved bills last week that would prohibit requiring non-union employees to financially support unions at their workplace. Lansing authorities are bracing for an onslaught of protesters Tuesday. They have increased police presence and plan road closings and parking restrictions around the Capitol. Schools in Warren, MI, will also close due to insufficient teacher attendance. In Warren, officials announced Monday that classes were canceled at Warren Consolidated Schools due to teachers taking the day off to travel to Lansing to protest the state’s impending right-to-work legislation.[/quote] [url=http://blog.heritage.org/2012/12/10/michigan-schools-to-close-as-teachers-leave-to-protest-right-to-work/]The Foundry[/url] Protesters sing Christmas Carols outside of Snyder's home [quote]SUPERIOR TOWNSHIP, Mich. (AP) -- Opponents of right-to-work laws plan to gather near the home of Gov. Rick Snyder to encourage him to reverse his stance on the legislation. A group called We Are Michigan says it plans to sing Christmas carols on Monday evening near the Republican's home in Washtenaw County's Superior Township, near Ann Arbor. The group's spokesman Dave Kreisman tells AnnArbor.com he's expecting several dozen people to participate. He says he hopes Snyder "will hear the sounds of the season" and reconsider. The Republican governor has pledged to sign the legislation. On Sunday, people in Kalamazoo and the Detroit suburb of Troy sang Christmas-themed protest songs in response to the legislature's right-to-work actions last week. Protests are expected this week in Lansing and union officials are asking people to wear red.[/quote] (note: The carols are because they can not get a protest permit in time, but you don't need a permit to sing carols) [url=http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121210/POLITICS02/212100372/1361/Right-to-work-opponents-to-sing-near-Snyder-s-home-today]The Detroit News[/url] State Police Beef up Measures to Prevent Occupation of Capitol [quote]LANSING — The law enforcement presence at the Michigan Capitol continued to grow today, as tensions build in advance of Tuesday’s expected vote in the House on right-to-work legislation and accompanying [B]demonstrations that could draw tens of thousands of protesters.[/B] [B]Several dozen Michigan State Police troopers were seen on patrol at the Capitol this morning, including at least 10 each outside the House and Senate chambers even though lawmakers are not in session today.[/B] [B]In a change from last week, each trooper was carrying a wooden baton on their person, and some were also carrying zip-ties, which can be used as an alternative to handcuffs[/B]. State Police set up barricades today at the front of the Capitol to guide visitors to the building’s entrance. Inside, police also designated stairwells to direct the flow of visitors between the building’s four floors. Michigan State Police issued a statement Sunday night, saying they will be enforcing the rules of the Capitol both today and Tuesday, when demonstrations are expected to reach their climax. Inspector Gene Adamczyk told reporters today that the State Police and other local law enforcement agencies have procedures in place to maintain security at the Capitol tomorrow. If demonstrators attempt to occupy the Capitol — as happened in Wisconsin two years ago amid protests over collective bargaining legislation — Adamcyzk said they will remove them “as professionally as possible” when the Capitol closes Tuesday evening.[/quote] [url=http://www.lansingstatejournal.com/article/20121210/NEWS04/312100037/State-Police-numbers-increase-Capitol?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Cimg%7CFRONTPAGE] Lansing State Journal[/url] Protesters charged with Felony for trying to break into Senate chambers during vote: [quote]LANSING, MI — Eight people arrested during Thursday’s right-to-work protest face felony resisting and obstructing charges. They were released on bond on Thursday and are due in court for their arraignment at 11 a.m. Dec. 19 in front of 54-A District Court Judge Hugh Clarke Jr., according to court administrator Anethia Brewer. Michigan State Police Inspector Gene Adamczyk on Thursday said the protesters were trying to push their way into the Senate chamber and lied down in a common walk way. They were asked to move and did not, so two troopers responded with CS gas, or mace, he said. Ingham County Prosecutor Stuart Dunnings III said this is the first time he's charged anyone with a criminal offense for protesting a policy or piece of legislation. Dozens of state police troopers with wooden batons and gas masks in holsters patrolled the Capitol on Monday, though it was quiet throughout the day. More than 50 state police vehicles lined the promenade behind the Capitol building. Helmets and riot gear were stored in a Capitol room. A large protest is planned for Tuesday, when lawmakers will continue voting on contentious right-to-work legislation.[/quote] [url=http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2012/12/michigan_right_to_work_protest.html]mLive[/url] Wisconsinites joining the Protests: [quote]Wisconsin labor leaders are rallying to support their beleaguered brethren in Michigan. Randy Bryce, an organizer for Ironworkers Local 8, is putting together a group of workers from Wisconsin and Michigan’s Upper Peninsula to join the protest against legislation pushed by Gov. Rick Snyder and Republicans in the Legislature to make Michigan a right-to-work state. Bryce, a Racine County ironworker who was involved in similar protests against anti-labor legislation in Wisconsin, said the issues involved are even greater in Michigan. "A lot of things are eerily similar to parts of what happened here in Wisconsin," said Bryce, who expects 40 to 50 people from his union to travel to Lansing, Mich., by Tuesday when lawmakers reconvene and Snyder plans to sign the bills into law. "I would say what’s under attack there is even bigger because they decided to go after the public- and private-sector unions." Bryce said he’s been in contact with other state labor leaders who also are trying to organize groups to travel to Michigan.[/quote] [url=http://host.madison.com/news/local/govt-and-politics/wisconsin-workers-will-join-michigan-protests/article_fe9e8d8e-4199-11e2-ab5b-0019bb2963f4.html#ixzz2Eh6ix2Bu]Wisconsin State Journal[/url] [U][B]SO WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL?[/B][/U] What is Right to Work legislation? You can read a brief guide on the effects of RTW [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/10/how-right-to-work-laws-could-reshape-michigans-economy/]Here on the Wonkblog of the Washington Post[/url]. But essentially, RTW causes significant long-term damage to workers' unions- a huge issue in Ohio, Wisconsin, Indiana, and particularly Michigan- one of the strongest union strongholds in America. The RTW laws make it illegal for closed shops to occur- that's a workplace where the union is in a contractual agreement with an employer in which the employer hires only union members, or in which non-union members must also pay fees to the union or union dues in exchange for the benefits that the union brings. RTW breaks these contracts. Because closed shops do not occur, there is a significant free-loader problem, in which the union receives less funds, while now holding up the same or a large number of workers against the employer. Because the union is inefficient because of lack of funds, others leave the union until it disintegrates due to a positive feedback loop. RTW is specifically designed to damage unions and specifically their ability to collectively bargain, while being passed as a measure of free association by conservatives and anti-unionists. Additionally, the people of Michigan feel betrayed by Governor Snyder, who was elected on a promise not to pursue RTW legislation, but surprised us suddenly by pushing it into the legislature. The actions by which the bills were passed may be illegal- the bill was voted on only a few hours after being introduced, without going to committee first and skipping discussion- both illegal. There were three bills proposed- two RTW bills and one with an RTW dovetail to a spending bill. This is important because Michigan law says that you can not vote on the same bill in different houses less than 5 days apart, but by creating two separate bills in the latter house of the legislature, they were able to vote on one and put one off to Tuesday. Because the already passed bill in the House was attached to a spending bill, it is also now immune from a voter referendum to overturn it, under Michigan law. In the first vote in the Senate, protesters arrived on scene 3 hours after the bill was announced, and 8 tried to forcibly enter the Senate floor. This caused the police to close down the capitol building- also illegal under Michigan law, as the capitol building must be open to the public for accountability reasons while congress is in session. As the Senate Democrats attempted to walk out to prevent a quorum needed to vote on the bill, the Republicans also [I]locked the doors on the inside of the Senate floor, locking the Democrats in the senate[/I]. Democrats called the state Supreme Court, who gathered and ruled one hour later that it was illegal to have the doors, and the building, locked down. However, the bill was already passed. The next day, the other bill was passed as the Democrats walked out in protest, and voting on the third and final bill begins Tuesday. Additionally, the Republicans are going to pass this bill- like over 400 others the past 2 years- as an "emergency law", which would put it into effect immediately instead of the required 1 year and 90 days under Michigan law. To do this, you would (under Michigan law) need 2/3 majority of both houses of congress, but the Republicans have been doing it [I]without a 2/3 majority in hundreds of cases[/I]. This is an attempt to push the bill out now, as the Republicans lose their majority (for the first time in forever) in January. There's a major suite pending in the state courts right now on the issue. [U]Summary:[/U] -Gov. Snyder promised not to push RTW laws, but did. -Reason: Republicans lose majority in January. -The first bill skipped committee and discussion, was voted on 4 hours after being introduced. Illegal. -The Capitol was locked down, keeping protesters out. Illegal. -The Senate was locked down, keeping Senators attempting a walkout in. Illegal. -The other bills were introduced one day later. The first was attached to a spending bill, which allowed them to bypass the 5-day-wait (possibly illegal) and to prevent it from being overturned by referendum. -House Democrats walked out in protest. -The House votes on its second bill on Tuesday. -All three bills may be passed as emergency laws without a 2/3 majority, to take effect immediately. Illegal. [B][U]Stats on RTW:[/U][/B] The [url=http://www.epi.org/publication/bp299/]Economic Policy Institute[/url] states: [quote][B]Wages in right-to-work states are 3.2% lowe[/B]r than those in non-RTW states, after controlling for a full complement of individual demographic and socioeconomic variables as well as state macroeconomic indicators. Using the average wage in non-RTW states as the base ($22.11), the average full-time, full-year [B]worker in an RTW state makes about $1,500 less annually[/B] than a similar worker in a non-RTW state. The rate of employer-sponsored [B]pensions is 4.8 percentage points lower in RTW states[/B], using the full complement of control variables in our regression model. If workers in non-RTW states were to receive pensions at this lower rate, [B]3.8 million fewer workers nationally would have pensions.[/B][/quote]
I really hope they can get enough political clout to kill this Right to Work bill. Unions may not be perfectly innocent but they're better than letting business owners have free reign over their employees.
[QUOTE=catbarf;38782513]I really hope they can get enough political clout to kill this Right to Work bill. Unions may not be perfectly innocent but they're better than letting business owners have free reign over their employees.[/QUOTE] Right to work laws do not prohibit unions.
[QUOTE=Strider*;38782800]Right to work laws do not prohibit unions.[/QUOTE] No, but once employees are not required to join unions, employers can 'discourage' employees from belonging to them. The collective strength of the union is also diminished since they no longer represent all employees. I mean, yes, you're right, but it still renders them largely impotent.
They are being huge dicks about it and even putting in stuff to make it impossible to do a citizens repeal of the law basically this isnt lawmakers creating and doing the law this is some other group who said do this or we disown you to be honest it was most likely ALEC
From the description, it sounds like they did a whole bunch of illegal shit to get this passed. Whether or not you disagree or agree with RTW, their techniques are more than enough to disgust me.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38782468']-The first bill skipped committee and discussion, was voted on 4 hours after being introduced. Illegal.[/QUOTE] No it isn't, there's no constitutional requirements for bills to go to committee or be put up for discussion, it is simply rules and procedures created by the house which the Supreme Court ruled a long time ago to not be legally binding. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38782468']-The Capitol was locked down, keeping protesters out. Illegal.[/QUOTE] No it isn't; Or else the US Congress couldn't have Closed Sessions [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38782468']The Senate was locked down, keeping Senators attempting a walkout in. Illegal.[/QUOTE] No it isn't, this has been done for 200 years. Have you even finished highschool?
Minimum wage in my state is 5.50 an hour. Thank god for federal minimum wage being higher and the laws that make employers pay whichever is higher.
[QUOTE=Broseph_;38783868]No it isn't, there's no constitutional requirements for bills to go to committee or be put up for discussion, it is simply rules and procedures created by the house which the Supreme Court ruled a long time ago to not be legally binding. No it isn't; Or else the US Congress couldn't have Closed Sessions No it isn't, this has been done for 200 years. Have you even finished highschool?[/QUOTE] Michigan law. Not federal. Michigan. Every one of those laws, if you had read the full explanation, is illegal under the state law. This is the state congress. This is Michigan law. I explained this very clearly for you. Look, I can show you: [quote]Additionally, the people of Michigan feel betrayed by Governor Snyder, who was elected on a promise not to pursue RTW legislation, but surprised us suddenly by pushing it into the legislature. The actions by which the bills were passed may be illegal- the bill was voted on only a few hours after being introduced, without going to committee first and skipping discussion- both illegal. There were three bills proposed- two RTW bills and one with an RTW dovetail to a spending bill. This is important because [B]Michigan law[/B] says that you can not vote on the same bill in different houses less than 5 days apart, but by creating two separate bills in the latter house of the legislature, they were able to vote on one and put one off to Tuesday. Because the already passed bill in the House was attached to a spending bill, it is also now immune from a voter referendum to overturn it, under [B]Michigan law[/B]. In the first vote in the Senate, protesters arrived on scene 3 hours after the bill was announced, and 8 tried to forcibly enter the Senate floor. This caused the police to close down the capitol building- also illegal under [B]Michigan law[/B], as the capitol building must be open to the public for accountability reasons while congress is in session. As the Senate Democrats attempted to walk out to prevent a quorum needed to vote on the bill, the Republicans also locked the doors on the inside of the Senate floor, locking the Democrats in the senate. Democrats called the [U][B]state Supreme Court[/B], who gathered and ruled one hour later that [B]it was illegal[/B][/U] to have the doors, and the building, locked down. However, the bill was already passed. The next day, the other bill was passed as the Democrats walked out in protest, and voting on the third and final bill begins Tuesday. Additionally, the Republicans are going to pass this bill- like over 400 others the past 2 years- as an "emergency law", which would put it into effect immediately instead of the required 1 year and 90 days under [B]Michigan law[/B]. To do this, you would ([B]under Michigan law[/B]) need 2/3 majority of both houses of congress, but the Republicans have been doing it without a 2/3 majority in hundreds of cases. This is an attempt to push the bill out now, as the Republicans lose their majority (for the first time in forever) in January. There's a major suite pending in the state courts right now on the issue.[/quote] 5 "Michigan law"s and one "illegal under the state Supreme Court". Next time when you attempt to point out the flaws in my legal arguments, you may want to read them first. Additionally, it's illegal to lock Senators on the floor. You can't hold Senators hostage to keep them from leaving session. I don't know where it's been happening for 200 years, but preventing walkouts by physically preventing Senators from leaving the room is definitely not legal and never has been.
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38784032']words[/QUOTE] OH my god, some Republicans used dirty and underhanded tactics to quickly pass a bill into law, THIS IS A GREAT INJUSTICE AND ILLEGAL!! Stop being such a hyprocrited bigot, Democrats do the same thing all the fucking time. Both sides do shit like this all the time, except Democrats have a propaganda war machine to blow stuff like this epically out of proportion. I say more power to the employers. If the Republicans didn't do something extreme like this, the unions would have just steamrollered over the bills and got them thrown out and continued to monopolize the workforce. Unions have no place in modern society; All of the things that they were originally organized for are completely redundant, and they just remain today as a huge parasitic burden on society.
Wow. This really shouldn't be that big of a deal. If someone doesn't want to join a union to work in a certain job, then they shouldn't be forced to join.
[QUOTE=DuCT;38784747]Wow. This really shouldn't be that big of a deal. If someone doesn't want to join a union to work in a certain job, then they shouldn't be forced to join.[/QUOTE] It is a big deal to unions because if the state converts to RTW, they lose most if not all of their power. You're right to think that workers shouldn't be forced to join a union just to be able to work, or even pay union dues to the union with a contract with the company they want to work for, if they don't want to join the union; Because it's basically extortion. The only way the unions can function is by extorting money from workers and lashing out when they don't get their way. We can all see how well this worked in the recall election, they nearly spent themselves to oblivion and still failed.
[QUOTE=bohb;38784698]OH my god, some Republicans used dirty and underhanded tactics to quickly pass a bill into law, THIS IS A GREAT INJUSTICE AND ILLEGAL!! Stop being such a hyprocrited bigot, Democrats do the same thing all the fucking time. Both sides do shit like this all the time, except Democrats have a propaganda war machine to blow stuff like this epically out of proportion. I say more power to the employers. If the Republicans didn't do something extreme like this, the unions would have just steamrollered over the bills and got them thrown out and continued to monopolize the workforce. Unions have no place in modern society; All of the things that they were originally organized for are completely redundant, and they just remain today as a huge parasitic burden on society.[/QUOTE] Breakign the law, not just underhanded tactics. Yea, it's underhanded, but I don't care. I also don't care for Democrats, so I'm not being a hypocrite- I support the unions, not either party. The Republicans did things that were [I]illegal[/I]. The Democrats did not in this instance. The Republicans in this state have been passing laws [I]illegally[/I] for 2 years. And now there's a major case making its way to the state Supreme Court about it that could see the Michigan Republican Party punished for it. This has not happened with the Democrats- nothing on this scale. This particular issue, I care about alot. Many people in Michigan do. Pull your head out of your ass and stop thinking in terms of partisanship. I have no issues with calling out the Democrats for their bullshit, but they haven't done this crap. On this issue, I oppose RTW, and support unions. And as far as them being bullshit- how much have you actually worked in your life? As a minimum wage worker, I can safely say that unions are completely relevant. I wish my workplace had a union, so I didn't have to deal with the health hazards that my employer is subjecting me and my coworkers to. If you really think that unions are irrelevant, you're living in a fantasy world. There are cases every day that the NLRB takes on that show that employers are continuing to shit on workers when allowed. As far as monopolizing the workforce, what the hell does that even mean? And for your second comment, also bullshit, because most unions don't have closed shops. The vast majority excluding the big few run purely on voluntary basis. All those voluntary workers paying their union dues as they wish are totally being extorted, right? You want to talk about parasites? Look at employers. What use do they serve now other than taking the product of others' labor? To summarize half of what you've said: "Stop being a hypocritical bigot by supporting something I don't. I'm going to attach you to my enemy because if you aren't us then obviously you are them. You need to quit ragging on the Republicans. It's bigoted to attack them for breaking the law and using immoral BS."
[QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38785128']Breakign the law, not just underhanded tactics. Yea, it's underhanded, but I don't care. I also don't care for Democrats, so I'm not being a hypocrite- I support the unions, not either party.[/quote] Guess what, by supporting the unions, you are supporting Democrats by definition. You aren't going to find any Republican unions that aren't forcibly required to exist under some law.. Unions are almost entirely a Democrat/Liberal ideology. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38785128']The Republicans did things that were [I]illegal[/I]. The Democrats [B]did not in this instance.[/B] The Republicans in this state have been passing laws [I]illegally[/I] for 2 years. And now there's a major case making its way to the state Supreme Court about it that could see the Michigan Republican Party punished for it. This has not happened with the Democrats- nothing on this scale.[/quote] So just because Democrats are currently not doing anything dirty and underhanded, it completely exhonerates them of any past wrongdoing? This is why I called you a hypocrit. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38785128']This particular issue, I care about alot. Many people in Michigan do. Pull your head out of your ass and stop thinking in terms of partisanship. I have no issues with calling out the Democrats for their bullshit, but they haven't done this crap. On this issue, I oppose RTW, and support unions.[/quote] Of course you have no qualms with Democrats, because unions were the ones that put them in office and keep them in office as long as they do the bidding of the unions. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38785128']And as far as them being bullshit- how much have you actually worked in your life? As a minimum wage worker, I can safely say that unions are completely relevant. I wish my workplace had a union, so I didn't have to deal with the health hazards that my employer is subjecting me and my coworkers to. If you really think that unions are irrelevant, you're living in a fantasy world. There are cases every day that the NLRB takes on that show that employers are continuing to shit on workers when allowed.[/quote] So you're telling me that instead of doing something sensible and reporting your employer to the department of labor via OSHA, you'd rather donate part of your already paltry wages to start a union to incite a protest shitstorm in your workplace? That's totally sensible, and totally won't get anyone fired for starting a shitstorm. And you have the other option of quitting your job and finding elsewhere to work. Despite popular belief, not all employers are assholes. Sine you already make minimum wage, converting to another job isn't going to change your income level much. [QUOTE='[Seed Eater];38785128']You want to talk about parasites? Look at employers. What use do they serve now other than taking the product of others' labor?[/QUOTE] Haha. This is the most idiotic statement I've ever seen. If you really believe this, you need to go back to school and learn how business works.
[QUOTE=bohb;38785481]Guess what, by supporting the unions, you are supporting Democrats by definition. You aren't going to find any Republican unions that aren't forcibly required to exist under some law.. Unions are almost entirely a Democrat/Liberal ideology. [B]Er, no. Specifically I support industrial and syndicated unions more than business unions. Unions hardly started as a Democratic thing. And I'm not sure if you've ever been in a heavily unionized rural area like I grew up in, you'd know that there's huge support for unions in the conservative populace of rural Michigan. You misused the word ideology, by the way. And "almost entirely" is blatantly false, since Democrats and Republicans are both mixed. The radical left and some aspects of the radical right are better suited for the "almost entirely".[/B] So just because Democrats are currently not doing anything dirty and underhanded, it completely exhonerates them of any past wrongdoing? This is why I called you a hypocrit. [B]I said the opposite of that. Please read before you post. Using your logic you're being a hypocrite because of some stupid bullshit that happened back in 1996 or something. Let's drag things that have [I]no relevance to the current issue into it[/I] and then call out the other side [I]who isn't supporting the Democrats and even said that they are bad and do their own share of BS[/I]. If you want to find something [I]relevant[/I] to the current issue that directly deals with the Democrats being underhanded or doing something illegal, feel free. Otherwise you are endorsing illegal activity on behalf of the Republicans and waving it off as "oh yea, the Democrats did something bad too...once. It has nothing to do with this either."[/B] Of course you have no qualms with Democrats, because unions were the ones that put them in office and keep them in office as long as they do the bidding of the unions. [B]I said I don't like the Democrats. I don't have qualms with them [I]in this instance[/I]. What the fuck does that have to do with the Democrats being elected? Yes, major unions tend to support Democrats. Republicans pioneered trade unions in the US. Does that have any relevance as to whether either party is committing illegal activity right now? Does the relationship between the unions and either party deal specifically with the issue of RTW legislation in Michigan and the circumstance by which is was passed? No, but the Republicans doing illegal and underhanded activity to pass it [I]does[/I].[/B] So you're telling me that instead of doing something sensible and reporting your employer to the department of labor via OSHA, you'd rather donate part of your already paltry wages to start a union to incite a protest shitstorm in your workplace? That's totally sensible, and totally won't get anyone fired for starting a shitstorm. And you have the other option of quitting your job and finding elsewhere to work. Despite popular belief, not all employers are assholes. Sine you already make minimum wage, converting to another job isn't going to change your income level much. [B]Actually, one of us did report it to the MIOSHA. I'm not sure you know how unions work, or how the benefits of the union and support from the NLRB support a union's ability to organize free from coercion of an employer. Whether it's going to cause a shitstorm is not the problem. If we choose to act together to oppose the (multiple) disagreements we have with our employer, then we have every right. These are issues that OSHA can't deal with also.[/B] Haha. This is the most idiotic statement I've ever seen. If you really believe this, you need to go back to school and learn how business works. [B]I suggest you enlighten me with your economic insight.[/B][/QUOTE] Bold.
This is so stupidly minor, but what streets are they actually closing around the capitol? My normal commute takes me right near the capitol, and while I support the protesters, I'd rather not drive into that mess.
I understand that teachers want to protest, but its kind of shitty that they're closing schools over it.
[QUOTE=Disotrtion;38785614]I understand that teachers want to protest, but its kind of shitty that they're closing schools over it.[/QUOTE] Protests and strikes are usually only effective when you stop what your doing
[QUOTE=Disotrtion;38785614]I understand that teachers want to protest, but its kind of shitty that they're closing schools over it.[/QUOTE] Lets be honest, there is ALOT more going on in Michigan than just this. They only just repealed a law allowing the governor to remove any city/county officials and replace them with whoever the fuck he wants and removes alot of rights from the citizens (like not being able to remove said emergency person from the position). The whole state government is really fucked up right now.
[QUOTE=bohb;38784698]Unions have no place in modern society;[/QUOTE] You should probably clarify, because speaking that generally you're just wrong. Unions have and always will have a place in society, if you believe people have a right to choose who they work for and why of their own volition and also have the right to associate with each other freely, you support the existence of unions. [QUOTE=Strider*;38782800]Right to work laws do not prohibit unions.[/QUOTE] They prohibit workers from making contracts which affect their wages. Arguing it doesn't "prohibit unions" is semantics, that's like being okay with needless amputation of a person's left foot because they're still technically human.
In my humble opinion I should have the right not to be forced to join a union and give them basically their own form of taxation for no reason. Makes me mad every time I'd see "union fees" on a pay stub
[QUOTE=Aman VII;38786196]In my humble opinion I should have the right not to be forced to join a union and give them basically their own form of taxation for no reason. Makes me mad every time I'd see "union fees" on a pay stub[/QUOTE] then you're free to find a job without a union. you aren't entitled to the benefits of a union if you aren't willing to pay for it(the cost of which, is far outweighed by the benefits) anyone in favor or free markets or whatever bullshit should be against these laws. It's basic interference with a private contract that is usually the Worst Thing for proponents of R2W. [editline]11th December 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Strider*;38782800]Right to work laws do not prohibit unions.[/QUOTE] yes they do. don't be a disingenuous idiot, Strider*. Unions don't last in states with R2W laws, and that is exactly the intention of these laws, to kill unions.
[QUOTE=bohb;38785481]Guess what, by supporting the unions, you are supporting Democrats by definition.[/QUOTE] I was listening to you until you said this. Believe it or not, people can have their own opinions without supporting any particular party. Are you going to call me a Democrat for disagreeing with you? Because you'd be wrong. Are you going to assume that means I'm a Republican? Wrong again. So that means I'm third party, right? Nope. I support what I think is right, not what other people tell me to think. And right now I'm not sure what I think is right, but you're not giving your own viewpoint much credibility, which is a shame because you're one of the few people promoting it.
[QUOTE=Lazor;38786231]yes they do. don't be a disingenuous idiot, Strider*. Unions don't last in states with R2W laws, and that is exactly the intention of these laws, to kill unions.[/QUOTE] That's not what prohibit means. RTW means that you can still start a union, just that you can't be as underhanded as what brought RTW forward in the first place.
[QUOTE=Glaber;38786308]That's not what prohibit means. RTW means that you can still start a union, just that you can't be as underhanded as what brought RTW forward in the first place.[/QUOTE] Hey Glaber, why are you ok with government interference in the market in this case but not in almost any other case :ironicat:
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;38786459]Ever been forced to pay union fees because you were forced to join a union in order to get a job? They force you to join in many cases or you will not be hired. Then they MAKE you pay, or you get fired.[/QUOTE] yeah, it's called a contract, dingus. The union provides you benefits you don't get at a non-union job, and they can't function effectively as negotiators if the state neuters the contract that allows them to function without freeriders.
Update: [quote]LANSING, MI — Thousands of protesters convened on the Capitol this morning, waving signs, banging on buckets, singing and chanting against right-to-work legislation that's expected to be passed today. By 10:30 a.m., [B]the agency which manages the Capitol estimated more than 10,000 demonstrators had gathered outside[/B]. Michigan State Police [B]limited access to the building around 10 a.m. because it had reached its capacity of roughly 2,000 people[/B]. Demonstrators braved freezing temperatures to show their anger with legislation that did not exist a week ago. The effort would make it optional for workers in union shops to pay dues and fees. (see videos below) “Our family wouldn’t be where it is today without the UAW,” said Susan Abraham of Delta Township, who donned a Mrs. Claus outfit to make a statement. Several large inflatable animals stood out among the crowd, including four menacing-looking rats with red signs that read, “The Rat Pack!!” Each of the four rats also had a name: Gov. Rick Snyder, House Speaker Jase Bolger, Senate Majority Leader RandyRichardville and Dick DeVos. Bolger and Richardville joined the Republican governor in supporting the right-to-work legislation. Amway heir Dick DeVos also is supporting the movement. Thousands of protesters filled the Capitol rotunda and chanted things like “Hey hey, ho, ho, right to work has got to go.” [B]Meanwhile, thousands more marched down Michigan Avenue toward the Capitol, including many from outside of Michigan.[/B] There has been a report of one injury: A man was inadvertently knocked off his Segway by a police horse. His injury was not serious. Union member Glenn Wooden was among 75 people who took a bus from Baltimore to show their support for Michigan protesters. Maryland is a right-to-work state. “The city is deteriorating because of it,” Wooden said. “They want economic growth, how can they get economic growth with no tax base?” National union leaders also came out for the event. Jim Hoffa, president of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, said right to work would divide the state. “If you had any guts you’d put it on the ballot, let the people decide,” he said. Though they were far out-numbered by right-to-work opponents, there were supporters on hand as well. They had two large tents set up on the Capitol lawn. “The country is watching Michigan,” said Scott Hagerstrom, state director of Americans for Prosperity-Michigan, in a statement. “This time we’re making headlines for the right reason - a pro-growth policy that can and will help to turn Michigan’s economy around.”[/quote] Chicago Tribune is saying 12,000 protesters.
[QUOTE=Lazor;38786495]yeah, it's called a contract, dingus. The union provides you benefits you don't get at a non-union job, and they can't function effectively as negotiators if the state neuters the contract that allows them to function without freeriders.[/QUOTE] That's great in theory, but how do you account for corruption in the union? Like it or not this happens. Where's the check and balance? I don't like forced unions because from what I have seen they show all the same problems as any other form of government sanctioned monoloply/oligopoly. Guaranteed profits yield terrible services, or terrible amounts of service per dollar. This isn't even getting into the paperwork nightmare that is firing someone who isn't doing fuck all at their job that all too often results in cases like this.
So both sides are arguing over corrupt government defending it with "the other side does it!" instead of arguing why aren't you thinking "Hey, our government is corrupt, it needs to be fixed". In all honesty, I feel as if now-a-days the political game has become SO childish and petty that we need a big change or our country is going to fall.. and fall hard.
[QUOTE=Zephyrs;38789548]That's great in theory, but how do you account for corruption in the union? Like it or not this happens. Where's the check and balance? I don't like forced unions because from what I have seen they show all the same problems as any other form of government sanctioned monoloply/oligopoly. Guaranteed profits yield terrible services, or terrible amounts of service per dollar. This isn't even getting into the paperwork nightmare that is firing someone who isn't doing fuck all at their job that all too often results in cases like this.[/QUOTE] I agree with alot that you say here, which is why I lean far from business unions. You should realize though that the vast majority of unions are small enough, or localized enough, for immediate accountability, and that more radical unions are built on the idea of direct democracy, which is a strong check on the organization's power. I would argue that "guaranteed profits yields terrible service" is incorrect though. This occurs when workers receiving a high wage from an employer don't see it as a return of their product, but as a handout from the employer. This is a common mindset in the US, but is fairly absent from workplaces and areas where there is a strong presence of workers' solidarity. It's not "I'm getting paid anyhow, why work so hard?" it's "The harder I work, the more I make back." Or at least it ought to be, but because of the strength of employers and their control and manipulation of wages versus profits, workers receive less incentive to work harder when their hard work yields them less than they make. That's where a strong solidarity and unions come it- to constantly check that an employer is giving the workers a reasonable return on their product. Obviously no union can ask for a 200% increase in wages when the workers don't make the product to have that return on. Of course there's major issues of corruption or misuse of power, but that comes with the existing union structure of business unions, who made it big by playing the middle ground of appeasing both sides. Instead of becoming workers' organizations, they've become businesses in themselves. So yes, you are right on that. But that's not to say that AFL-CIO local 613 or a group of 20 workers from a company that rent out a office are responsible for this. The check on the union are the workers themselves.
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