Windows 8 hate bandwagon gets a new member: Serious Sam dev hops on board - Polidicks

[IMG]http://www.pagnianimports.com.au/media//games.on.net_logo.JPG[/IMG] [url]http://games.on.net/2012/11/windows-h8-valve-continue-their-crusade-against-the-os-serious-sam-dev-joins-in/[/url] [QUOTE]Windows 8 released just last week (or so), but the complaints against it from software developers have been going for a long time. Valve Overfiend Gabe Newell described it as “a catastrophe”, and Blizzard joined in saying it was “not awesome” for them either. Today even more Windows 8-hate has been unleashed, with Valve’s engineer Drew Bliss using a speech at the Ubuntu Summit in Copenhagen to claim that Linux is a better, more open platform than Windows 8. “If you look at the way the world is going, where you see Apple completely in control of their system, and at least part of Windows 8 entirely controlled by the Microsoft App Store, Steam is going to be a little bit harder to do – both in the store aspect and in the content delivery aspect,” said Drew. “We want to continue developing in open platforms and so we’re looking around, and obviously Linux has become a very viable alternate platform. So we are now looking into doing Steam for Linux and supporting as many of our Steam games for Linux as we can.” Meanwhile, Serious Sam 3 developer Alen Ladavac from Croteam has taken to the Steam forums to blast Windows 8′s certification and restrictions as “horrible” and the whole OS as “a walled garden”. “Gabe Newel did not overreact,” said Ladavac. “What you don’t see here is that, under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS. There is this ‘small detail’ that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation: One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!” Ladavac continued: “Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they’ve banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam. They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. (…) It is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I’ll skip on that one.” [/QUOTE]

Well, maybe with enough people complaining Microsoft will change a few things. But it seems that they're more upset about their own version of the app store and what they sell rather then the OS as a whole. I can see why they want on the app store, but the people that already play games and know of digital platforms and use steam, origin, or other means.

Well doesn't ubuntu have something similar, their software center?

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;38336672] One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!” [/QUOTE] Why do you want to make me use a tiled app. Personally I like windows 8, but like vista and then 7. Windows 9 shall be glorious.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;38336749]Well doesn't ubuntu have something similar, their software center?[/QUOTE] Ubuntu doesn't lock you into shit from the software center.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;38336759]Why do you want to make me use a tiled app. Personally I like windows 8, but like vista and then 7. Windows 9 shall be glorious.[/QUOTE] Don't start with the pattern conspiracy, I know what you're saying but who knows maybe windows 9 will be terrible.

[QUOTE]n to claim that Linux is a better, more open platform than Windows 8[/QUOTE] woah what? mind=blown

Do you have to be so openly biased with your thread title? Most people have legitimate reasons they dislike Windows 8, and genuinely feel it offers nothing substantial. It isn't a catastrophe, but it does similarly feel lackluster like Vista.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;38336759]Why do you want to make me use a tiled app. Personally I like windows 8, but like vista and then 7. Windows 9 shall be glorious.[/QUOTE] What will Windows 9 do that is so different than 8? It is still going to keep Metro and they aren't going to remove Windows Store. It's going to be like 7 and Vista, not much is going to change but everyone is gonna say it's the best Windows version.

[QUOTE] “Gabe Newel did not overreact,” said Ladavac. “What you don’t see here is that, under the hood, the new tiled UI is a means for Microsoft to lock Windows applications into a walled garden, much like the one on iOS. There is this ‘small detail’ that Microsoft is not advertising anywhere, but you can find it dug deep in the developer documentation: One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!”[/QUOTE] I'm curious as to how enforced this is. Both Chrome and Firefox have metro versions you install externally without using the store and they work just fine. What's stopping other developers from doing the same?

[QUOTE=Tudd;38336808]Do you have to be so openly biased with your thread title? Most people have legitimate reasons they dislike Windows 8, and genuinely feel it offers nothing substantial. It isn't a catastrophe, but it does similarly feel lackluster like Vista.[/QUOTE] People who hate windows 8 for the store or metro is stupid, I know there really isn't much new features but still, the only valid reason I've seen is "I don't need to upgrade, 7 works fine for me" [editline]6th November 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Panda X;38336849]I'm curious as to how enforced this is. Both Chrome and Firefox have metro versions you install externally without using the store and they work just fine. What's stopping other developers from doing the same?[/QUOTE] distribution to RT maybe

[QUOTE=Wootman;38336838]What will Windows 9 do that is so different than 8? It is still going to keep Metro and they aren't going to remove Windows Store. It's going to be like 7 and Vista, not much is going to change but everyone is gonna say it's the best Windows version.[/QUOTE] As much as Vista and 7 looked alike, I think we can all agree 7 was very different from Vista, it just in general was a superior OS to Vista. Heck, when I tried using Vista when it was somewhat new, I found XP to be a lot better.

[QUOTE=t h e;38336884]Heck, when I tried using Vista when it was somewhat new, I found XP to be a lot better.[/QUOTE] Could that have been because you weren't used to it yet? The only major difference between Vista and 7 that changes functionality is the taskbar and jump lists. Everything else is almost exactly the same UI/UX wise.

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;38336859]People who hate windows 8 for the store or metro is stupid, I know there really isn't much new features but still, the only valid reason I've seen is "I don't need to upgrade, 7 works fine for me" [/QUOTE] Well that is a good reason. Infact, it is the only reason most people need. Personally, I just find Windows 8 abit too cumbersome as a desktop user. While I do like it's style (the desktop, not metro) and the performance boost, the whole time I just wish it was more traditional in it's interface. Also, the performance boost does nothing for me as an SSD user. So pretty much, 7 works fine for me.

[quote]One cannot release a tiled UI application by any other means, but only through Windows Store!” Ladavac continued: “Each app that you will get through the Windows Store will have to adhere to certain requirements imposed by MS. So far, we know that they’ve banned mature games, like Skyrim, CoD, and Serious Sam. They have forbidden modding. They could very well forbid Open Source if they want. (…) It is a vicious circle. And not an accidental one. This one was carefully designed to be that way. I say: no thank you, I’ll skip on that one.” [/quote] [del]Bandwagon my ass. Presenting the user with a tiled interface on startup and then forcing developers to go through Microsoft to get an application on said interface is a horrible limitation created only to promote their stupid app store. Sure a person who knows what they're doing can bypass the stupid fucking tiles, but the average user (read: kids and their parents) may not know how or may not even want to do so. As a developer, this means that your applications will likely get less exposure if they're not on the Windows store, and a developer such as Croteam could be shit out of luck considering the restrictions they've put on the store. This is a perfectly legitimate reason to hate Windows 8, it just so happens that the hate is unanimous.[/del]

[QUOTE=C0linSSX;38336968]Bandwagon my ass. Presenting the user with a tiled interface on startup and then forcing developers to go through Microsoft to get an application on said interface is a horrible limitation created only to promote their stupid app store. Sure a person who knows what they're doing can bypass the stupid fucking tiles, but the average user (read: kids and their parents) may not know how or may not even want to do so. As a developer, this means that your applications will likely get less exposure if they're not on the Windows store, and a developer such as Croteam could be shit out of luck considering the restrictions they've put on the store. This is a perfectly legitimate reason to hate Windows 8, it just so happens that the hate is unanimous.[/QUOTE] I would not say windows 8 hate is unanimous but that said, I don't know much about it. You're not obliged to use the app store, are you? You can still run steam through the exe and that so their platform is still fine and open to modding etc? Its just the app store that's restrictive?

[QUOTE=Elecbullet;38336765]Ubuntu doesn't lock you into shit from the software center.[/QUOTE] neither does windows 8... MISINFORMATION EREWHERE! [img]https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5661506/windows8.png[/img]

[QUOTE=killerteacup;38337051]I would not say windows 8 hate is unanimous but that said, I don't know much about it. You're not obliged to use the app store, are you? You can still run steam through the exe and that so their platform is still fine and open to modding etc? Its just the app store that's restrictive?[/QUOTE] [del]From what I understand you can still freely run applications as always, but Windows 8 starts up in the Metro interface by default. While the Metro interface has an application list like the old start menu, it takes longer to navigate to it than to simply click a tile on the front page. If the Croteam developer is to be believed, the only applications that can get tiles on the front page are those in Microsoft's app store. I believe there's also tiles for your default browser and mail client, but if you want to put anything else on the front page of the interface, it has to be from the app store. They haven't restricted your ability to freely install software, but from the sound if it they [I]have[/I] made appstore-bought apps slightly more accessible (especially on a tablet).[/del] [editline]12:35AM[/editline] Apparently I don't know shit. Could someone fill me in on what exactly this Croteam developer is annoyed by?

[QUOTE=C0linSSX;38337248]If the Croteam developer is to be believed, the only applications that can get tiles on the front page are those in Microsoft's app store. I believe there's also tiles for your default browser and mail client, but if you want to put anything else on the front page of the interface, it has to be from the app store.[/QUOTE] No you can put any app in the front App Store or not.

In that case I don't see it as a reason to stop me buying it, thanks I generally know the sort of things I want without them having to be on the front page for me

[QUOTE=Wootman;38337266]No you can put any app in the front App Store or not.[/QUOTE] I wonder what the Croteam guy is complaining about if that's the case

[QUOTE=C0linSSX;38337248]From what I understand you can still freely run applications as always, but Windows 8 starts up in the Metro interface by default. While the Metro interface has an application list like the old start menu, it takes longer to navigate to it than to simply click a tile on the front page. If the Croteam developer is to be believed, the only applications that can get tiles on the front page are those in Microsoft's app store. I believe there's also tiles for your default browser and mail client, but if you want to put anything else on the front page of the interface, it has to be from the app store. They haven't restricted your ability to freely install software, but from the sound if it they [I]have[/I] made appstore-bought apps slightly more accessible (especially on a tablet).[/QUOTE] Uuuuh. You can still put tiles on the metro without them being in the app store. Using a program you can even give them fancy icons as well, instead of grey and the normal icon... [img]http://i.imgur.com/tun7w.png[/img] (ones added are gimp, origin and steam.)

So this just confirms what Valve was saying about Windows becoming more closed then?

Valve and Croteam have always upheld principles and values that I admire, they're there for the PC Gamer. Blizzard, not so much but still. There are so few big developers left that actually try to maintain the full extent of the PC experience, as opposed to making it more and more like consoles and closed systems. Back in the day, almost every game came with an SDK and a level editor, it was almost a requirement for games to be successful. This is rarely the case any more, to create a mod for game, fan developers have to crack open any exploits and holes to essentially hack the game into adding functionality. Most games these days aren't even written for the PC, they're written for a console and a slap-job port is done for the PC, and why? Because there are more console gamers than there are PC gamers. The console is a closed off environment, owned entirely by a single company. If you want to upgrade a console, you have to wait for the next one to come out and completely replace the one you had. They control all aspects of the system and the games that are for it, they control design, distribution and even any media displayed within the system. When Apple "innovated" this system into something for an even larger demographic, owning the entire sphere for an every-day item, including supposedly standard platforms for browsing the web and reading your e-mail, they made billions. There is only one way to get an app on your iPhone, via the Apple Store, anything else is easily considered hacking or jailbreaking the device. Windows already filled a niche, it was the go-to system for both freedom and ownership. The perfect balance between open-ness and commercial. Microsoft didn't control what you can and can't do on a PC, that's up to you, they only provided the facilities for you to do so. The metro design, windows moving to a "universal OS" and now the certification process in the Windows App store, are all clearly moves towards a similar, all-microsoft system. Microsoft are trying to compete with Apple by being more like them, and while it may even be a highly successful venture for them, they're leaving the PC enthusiast in the dust, the crowd that made them who they are today are being tossed to the curb and left to rot. I'm not concerned about what Windows is, I'm concerned about what Windows will be.

Why are we already talking about Windows 9 when 8 has just come out. If you don't like the software then that's fine, but don't keep moaning about it all the time.

Well there's nothing to worry about the Metro apps being closed they use fucking javascript and HTML code in conjunction with a gimped version of Win32 to achieve compatibility across Windows PC's, Windows tablets (ARM and x86) and Windows Phones. They are limited in how complex they can be [I]by nature[/I] Think how Java hasn't replaced C/C++ even though Java is cross-platform, it's because Java is also slower than C/C++

I was talking to my mother this morning and she asked me if Windows 8 is "as bad as everyone is saying it is." She's a hairdresser that hangs around old ladies all day, How far does this bandwagon go?

I love the term bandwagon for any popular opinion you disagree with. I don't like being shot I'm one of those damn "don't get shot" bandwagoners.

[QUOTE=zakedodead;38338068]I love the term bandwagon for any popular opinion you disagree with. I don't like being shot I'm one of those damn "don't get shot" bandwagoners.[/QUOTE] I think it's more that people aren't thinking about this issue, because the misinformation they spew proves they didn't think about it or did their homework, because then there wouldn't be an issue in the first place.

I just got windows 8 and personally I'm finding it pretty neat.