• Juncker loses temper with ‘irrelevant’ Greek voters
    101 replies, posted
[QUOTE] Jean-Claude Juncker, the European Commission president, has taunted the Greeks by claiming that the country’s referendum result is an “irrelevant circus” because it was based on an illegitimate question. Mr Juncker, the thin-skinned leader of the European Union’s Brussels executive, accused the Greek government of acting emotionally, rather than rationally by calling a vote and questioned whether the referendum “no” really means no. “We are told we must respect the Greek people’s vote,” he told MEPs. [/QUOTE] [IMG]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/multimedia/archive/00936/juncker-1_936780c.jpg[/IMG] [URL="http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4490103.ece"]http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/europe/article4490103.ece[/URL] Full article is behind a pay wall, sorry. Democracy getting in the way of the EU it seems.
[QUOTE=Jame's;48140589]Democracy getting in the way of the EU it seems.[/QUOTE] More like democracy being used as an excuse not to pay off debt.
[QUOTE=Wiggles;48140628]More like democracy being used as an excuse not to pay off debt.[/QUOTE] European Invasion of Greece, we will take your temples and convert you to Ukko ylijumala. Perkele!
[QUOTE=Wiggles;48140628]More like democracy being used as an excuse not to pay off debt.[/QUOTE] That's something democracy can do. People have a democratic right to disrespect private property and to become communist, and people have a right to democratically default on debt.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48140716]That's something democracy can do. People have a democratic right to disrespect private property and to become communist, and people have a right to democratically default on debt.[/QUOTE] Something tells me you don't understand global economics.
Countries have defaulted on debt before. Countries have become communist before. Global economies are completely irrelevant to democracy and a country can even choose simply not to participate in the global economy. You seem to be the one ignorant of politics and economics.
Haven't been following the Greek situation too much, but did they basically just say 'thanks for the money but its not really working out for us so you wont be getting it back'?
[QUOTE=Chief Martini;48140751]Haven't been following the Greek situation too much, but did they basically just say 'thanks for the money but its not really working out for us so you wont be getting it back'?[/QUOTE] Yes. That's part of the risk of lending money, you might not get it back. [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] I mean they were never going to get back money anyway. Greece were always simply far too indebted and the shrinking GDP due to austerity and weak global markets (harming Greek shipping and tourism) making it even more unmanageable.
[QUOTE=Chief Martini;48140751]Haven't been following the Greek situation too much, but did they basically just say 'thanks for the money but its not really working out for us so you wont be getting it back'?[/QUOTE] That's more or less what they said. I understand they don't want the austerity measures to get even worse, but they're conveniently forgetting their own behaviour is the reason they got into this shit in the first place. No taxes on water because "it's a god-given right", as long as your home is under construction you don't pay tax on that (so as long as you make your house look as though it is under construction, no tax), WAY earlier pensions than the rest of europe and several other things.
[url]http://www.businessinsider.com/greece-referendum-totally-pointless-and-puts-country-in-worse-position-2015-7[/url] Ok here's a better look on why the vote REALLY was irrelevant: [quote]Not only was the call for a referendum pointless in getting Greece "a better deal" — [b]what Greeks were voting for didn't apply after June 30.[/b][/quote] Read the whole thing if you want to know how fucking pointless the referendum was. Even if Yes had won it wouldn't have happened because the deal had already expired, the government only gave people the ILLUSION of democracy just to get support from them and others.
[QUOTE=Jame's;48140589]Democracy getting in the way of the EU it seems.[/QUOTE] What use was this referendum anyway? The Greek government denied every offer so far, called the eurogroup terrorists, and all this was is an attempt of pushing the blame to somebody else and it worked! People are sympathizing with Greece because all they see is poor people with no money being given to them and ignore the entire context of why they are in this situation. Trying to put pressure on the EZ to give in the Greek demands but why the hell should they sacrifice themselves for Greece's government incompetence? If there's anything this government is good at is shifting the attention to anybody that isn't them and since they're also Greek, the public will follow them because "EU is bad". Most people can't even tell the difference between the European Union and the Euro Zone, how the hell does this referendum matter at all?
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48140755]Yes. That's part of the risk of lending money, you might not get it back. [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] I mean they were never going to get back money anyway. Greece were always simply far too indebted and the shrinking GDP due to austerity and weak global markets (harming Greek shipping and tourism) making it even more unmanageable.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;48140767]That's more or less what they said. I understand they don't want the austerity measures to get even worse, but they're conveniently forgetting their own behaviour is the reason they got into this shit in the first place. No taxes on water because "it's a god-given right", as long as your home is under construction you don't pay tax on that (so as long as you make your house look as though it is under construction, no tax), WAY earlier pensions than the rest of europe and several other things.[/QUOTE] I can definitely see why the EU is pissed off then. European countries have been pouring money into Greece for years at the expense of their own people, and now Greece is pretty much giving them the finger.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48140716]That's something democracy can do. People have a democratic right to disrespect private property and to become communist, and people have a right to democratically default on debt.[/QUOTE] um maybe if they want to lose all credibility towards the rest of the world
[QUOTE=KnightSolaire;48140725]Something tells me you don't understand global economics.[/QUOTE] Something tells me you don't understand the nature of debt. Risk is intrinsic to debt. That's why you have credit ratings and interest. If every debt was guaranteed to be paid back the world/society would be very different. Greeks defaulting might screw over the markets/the EU, and yeah that sucks, but they have the option to default. Greek politicians screwed up by taking those debts and european politicians screwed up by allowing the greeks to join/not pushing fiscal policy onto monetary union members. I support the EU but I support peoples freedom to default on debt more so.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;48140767]That's more or less what they said. I understand they don't want the austerity measures to get even worse, but they're conveniently forgetting their own behaviour is the reason they got into this shit in the first place. No taxes on water because "it's a god-given right", as long as your home is under construction you don't pay tax on that (so as long as you make your house look as though it is under construction, no tax), WAY earlier pensions than the rest of europe and several other things.[/QUOTE] How about not letting the developing Greek economy into the Eurozone in the first place? The Germans were complicit in the Greek overspending from the start because they were ideologically committed to including the 'birthplace of democracy' in the Eurozone despite it being evidently unready to join the same currency as the advanced German economy, the ignoring the continuous deficits by relaxation of fiscal spending rules, following Germany/France breaching them themselves, and heavily investing billions into Greece through German banks and other financial institutions to pay for the deficits due to Greek perceived creditworthiness as a member of the Eurozone. Germany was the architect of all their current problems in the Eurozone, equally, if not more, than Greece.
[QUOTE=gangleider;48140795]um maybe if they want to lose all credibility towards the rest of the world[/QUOTE] That's the price they will pay. When the banks failed in the great recession iceland refused to bail out their banks. They became a pariah for a while but eventually recovered. The government did what the voters wanted, as it should have. Greece should be able to default on their debts, they will just have to live with the consequences.
[QUOTE=gangleider;48140795]um maybe if they want to lose all credibility towards the rest of the world[/QUOTE] It's called trade offs. Shorter term damage against being confined to a debtors prison for half a century to pay off unplayable debts. I'll let you decide the better option.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48140755]Yes. That's part of the risk of lending money, you might not get it back. [editline]7th July 2015[/editline] I mean they were never going to get back money anyway. Greece were always simply far too indebted and the shrinking GDP due to austerity and weak global markets (harming Greek shipping and tourism) making it even more unmanageable.[/QUOTE] And yet the EU wanted to apply even more austerity, as if that was gonna magically stop failing and actually work.
[QUOTE=Wiggles;48140628]More like democracy being used as an excuse not to pay off debt.[/QUOTE] National sovereignty > international finance. Why should the working class, the masses of Greece, pay for a crisis that isn't their's? Why should they have their lives dictated by a detached neoliberal system and compelled to live in austerity? For the same reason, it is ridiculous TTIP has a protocol for allowing a company to sue a state for something like nationalization. Regardless of how you feel, where Greece goes will set a precedent for the place of a nation and its people in a globalized world.
[QUOTE=Conscript;48140836]National sovereignty > international finance. Why should the working class, the masses of Greece, pay for a crisis that isn't their's? Why should they have their lives dictated by a detached neoliberal system and compelled to live in austerity? For the same reason it is ridiculous TTIP has a protocol for allowing a company to sue a state for something like nationalization. Where Greece goes will set a precedent for the place of a nation and its people in a globalized world[/QUOTE] I support what you are saying but "detached neoliberal system" sounds a bit tinfoil hatty. That TTIP stuff is terrifying. No company should have that power. Companies aren't democratic, giving them more power than an elected government is a fucking farce. I think the EU is overall a good system and have potential to be a great system. In 1700s a united germany would have sounded like a pipe dream, now they're one of the most powerful nations in the world. The EU can be the same once we get rid of our growing pains. Just think of it as another layer of government. In germany the federalisation means each region has relative freedom to do what it likes, it can be the same in the EU.
[QUOTE=Chief Martini;48140751]Haven't been following the Greek situation too much, but did they basically just say 'thanks for the money but its not really working out for us so you wont be getting it back'?[/QUOTE] About 94% of the money went to Europe's banks, 6% went to actually bailing out Greece, and their economy has collapsed to American great depression levels of shit, the IMF says that the austarity measures will never work but should continue anyway, and the ecb is ignoring the totality of the destruction their refusal to budge on debt restructuring has caused
[QUOTE=TestECull;48140825]And yet the EU wanted to apply even more austerity, as if that was gonna magically stop failing and actually work.[/QUOTE] I guess they figure they can keep things together, keep people confident in them and trim the fat greece has to keep it running till they figure out a permanent solution. I genuinely think the EU has the best intentions in the matter (shared prosperity) but they're stuck between a rock and a hard place, which might mean they don't carry out the best actions (greece is going to suffer).
Just throw those slackers out of EU, put trade sanctions on them and enforce it militarily.
[QUOTE=FlashMarsh;48140800]How about not letting the developing Greek economy into the Eurozone in the first place? The Germans were complicit in the Greek overspending from the start because they were ideologically committed to including the 'birthplace of democracy' in the Eurozone despite it being evidently unready to join the same currency as the advanced German economy, the ignoring the continuous deficits by relaxation of fiscal spending rules, following Germany/France breaching them themselves, and heavily investing billions into Greece through German banks and other financial institutions to pay for the deficits due to Greek perceived creditworthiness as a member of the Eurozone. Germany was the architect of all their current problems in the Eurozone, equally, if not more, than Greece.[/QUOTE] Greece kept a LOT of their shit hidden. Debt was known beforehand, yes, but it wasn't known to be this much.
[QUOTE=NeverGoWest;48140866]Just throw those slackers out of EU, put trade sanctions on them and enforce it militarily.[/QUOTE] That's the equivalent of you taking a loan from somebody, not being able to pay back then having them take your house and throw you into prison. (illegal) What you are suggesting would cause suffering to the greek people for decades. People who aren't currently born would be screwed over by it. (immoral)
I loved the picture of the voters dancing and celebrating on the streets. It's as if the idiots thought they saved their own country.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;48140874]Greece kept a LOT of their shit hidden. Debt was known beforehand, yes, but it wasn't known to be this much.[/QUOTE] There was much to suggest that Germany/France were complicit in Greece bending the rules and were aware of it. Indeed in 2002 they knew the Greeks had lied publicly, but the difficulty of stronger and more stable Eastern European economies at involving themselves in the Eurozone compared to Greece's ease suggests heavily that the rules were not applied evenly to all, due to, in my opinion, an ideological committment to Greek European integration. A simple look on the Eurozone map should tell you about Greece's position in Europe being unusual for being part of the Eurozone.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;48140903] It's as if the idiots thought they saved their own country.[/QUOTE] I don't think it's very fair to be calling them idiots
[QUOTE=NeverGoWest;48140866]Just throw those slackers out of EU, put trade sanctions on them and enforce it militarily.[/QUOTE] Yes. That will totally show people how great the EU is and won't provide tons of ammo for EUsceptic movements. Just Brilliant
[QUOTE=Swebonny;48140903]I loved the picture of the voters dancing and celebrating on the streets. It's as if the idiots thought they saved their own country.[/QUOTE] This is the one point on which I agree. There is no room for celebrations when there is no 'good' option for Greece, just two different bad options.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.