As most of of FP knows, debates about religion and whether it's true or not have gone on for what seems like an eternity, and in more recent years the majority of people seem to find themselves with an Secular view of things, although this of course isn't true in all countries.
However, there are some prevailing questions I have about various religious texts, should you be someone who treats them as truth:
The main question I have has to do with Christianity and perhaps Catholicism. It seems that in the Bible, many great feats occur (Parting the sea, turning water into wine, burning bush, Virgin Mary, etc.), however I'd like to know why is it only now that God has decided to stop doing these sorts of divine acts. It seems like it only occurred during a time where records of events weren't necessarily credible or verifiable, yet people of faith still regard these things as fact, and I find it intriguing.
If you believe in Islam, I'd like to know why the Quran contains verses in it that completely contradict each other (As I've heard, certain parts of it were written earlier, and some parts later on).
If you're a Mormon, I'd just like to know how people knew Joseph Smith was telling the truth. I don't know too much about the Mormon faith, but any intelligent discussion is a good one.
I'd like to hear from the religious people of FP, because I know there must be some. I hope one or more of these questions can spark some well-mannered, leveled debate, if that's at all possible given the forum.
With all religion, I like to think of the root of it. Where did it start? And it seems to me like they were just stories that built on top of each other - and they've been able to come up with really good arguments for thousands of years.
[QUOTE=JamesIsGay;29651820]With all religion, I like to think of the root of it. Where did it start? And it seems to me like they were just stories that built on top of each other - and they've been able to come up with really good arguments for thousands of years.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, it's very fascinating.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29651779]
The main question I have has to do with Christianity and perhaps Catholicism. It seems that in the Bible, many great feats occur (Parting the sea, turning water into wine, burning bush, Virgin Mary, etc.), however I'd like to know why is it only now that God has decided to stop doing these sorts of divine acts.[/QUOTE]
Because the Bible is a Book that's why.
In my opinion, religion and argument are two things you can't mix because whether someone decides to follow a religion or not is on their own accord and there's nothing illogical about believing in something that may be possible to make your life have a meaning
Now, having illogical views on things with logical solutions just because of your religion is just being ignorant, but most religious people I've seen around are perfectly sane people with their own reasons for holding their beliefs.
The bible is not meant to be interpreted literally.
Debate - Facepunch - Religion.
Are you fucking insane, boyo'?
[editline]7th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Magistrate;29651957]The bible is not meant to be interpreted literally.[/QUOTE]
People do though, when it suits 'em.
[quote]well-mannered, leveled debate, if that's at all possible [/quote]
[img]http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-laughing024.gif[/img]
Well if you're going by credibility remember, the bible is written by several men recounting their time with Jesus. If you hung out with a guy for a few years and you thought he was awesome then he died and you along with a few friends decided to write a book about him to celebrate his life you'd get a few things wrong wouldn't you? and wouldn't you also stretch the truth a little bit to make your friend seem more awesome?
[QUOTE=Goodthief;29651964]Well if you're going by credibility remember, the bible is written by [B]several men recounting their time with Jesus.[/B] If you hung out with a guy for a few years and you thought he was awesome then he died and you along with a few friends decided to write a book about him to celebrate his life you'd get a few things wrong wouldn't you? and wouldn't you also stretch the truth a little bit to make your friend seem more awesome?[/QUOTE]
That's the New Testament, and most of the stuff in it is not contested or viewed as bad (The majority at least).
When people talk about "The Bible" they're usually exclusively referring to the Old Testament, which is where all the backwards, fucked up shit resides [I](Which all the backward, fuck up people who reside in fucked up, backwards towns believe in)[/I]
Exactly, which is why I used the new testament as an example, it's the most likely story
[QUOTE=Magistrate;29651957]The bible is not meant to be interpreted literally.[/QUOTE]
Regardless of this, there are people that do. Also, is the idea that the bible isn't meant to be taken literally actually confirmed by any religious authority?
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;29651958]Debate - Facepunch - Religion.
Are you fucking insane, boyo'?[/QUOTE]
Hey, it's worth a shot.
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=fishyfish777;29651951]there's nothing illogical about believing in something that may be possible to make your life have a meaning[/QUOTE]
Well, except for the fact that it isn't possible. Something that has no evidence cannot make your life have a meaning that is not already there.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29652027]Hey, it's worth a shot.[/QUOTE]
The populace can't even debate over video games without their heads on the keyboard, I think we're asking a bit of a high jump in cognitive abilities to be discussing the nuances of theology and whatnot. Facepunch ain't knowen for its civility, though that ain't necessarily a bad thing.
[QUOTE=CheeseMan;29652075]The populace can't even debate over video games without hitting their keyboards with their heads, I think we're asking a bit of a high jump in cognitive abilities to be discussing the nuances of theology and whatnot. Facepunch ain't knowen for its civility, though that ain't necessarily a bad thing.[/QUOTE]
It's been known to happen. There's been at least 3.
I have a simple thought that keeps coming back on the subject of religion. It's very simple.
The entire concept of a higher being - single or multiple - isn't it something INVENTED by humans?
If the idea of God never crossed the human mind, I believe religion as we know it today wouldn't exist.
Though after saying this, I'm sure humans would still find a way to divide themselves with beliefs, and I personally claim no knowledge of knowing what lies after death - if it even exists - because anybody that does is full of it.
It's like asking a fish to explain the molecular structure of water.
A lot of the stuff you mention is in the Older Testament (which I prefer, it's far more fun to read than the New Testament). Everything in the Old Testament shows god as a far more active figure on Earth, whereas the New Testament focuses on God acting by Proxy through Jesus.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29652027]Regardless of this, there are people that do. Also, is the idea that the bible isn't meant to be taken literally actually confirmed by any religious authority?[/QUOTE]
It's a recent idea, seeing as taking the Bible literally in this day and age doesn't get anyone very far.
Yes, the Bible has a share of parables and symbolic passages, but the majority is written to be taken literally. Because back when it was written, nobody gave a shit if someone told them that man was created out of clay, they had no better explanation.
[QUOTE=Goodthief;29652414][media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RT6rL2UroE[/media]
/debate[/QUOTE]
Joe Pesci does [B]not[/B] fuck around.
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=cyclocius;29652523]A lot of the stuff you mention is in the Older Testament (which I prefer, it's far more fun to read than the New Testament). Everything in the Old Testament shows god as a far more active figure on Earth, whereas the New Testament focuses on God acting by Proxy through Jesus.[/QUOTE]
And why did they write the New Testament?
[QUOTE=Goodthief;29652026]Exactly, which is why I used the new testament as an example, it's the most likely story[/QUOTE]
Though it's true that the old testament is worse than the new one, there still are some key flaws. One of my major issues with it, is the premise that God, who is omnipotent, can "sacrifice" himself for us, and because of this we owe him our faith and our piety. What exactly can an omnipotent being sacrifice?
Which reminds me, I've yet to hear a good argument from the theists on the question of the existence of evil. The most often used one is the argument from free-will, however if God is omnipotent (and therefore also omniscient) free-will cannot exist, seeing as how everything would be predetermined.
It also fails to explain "natural" evil, such as hurricanes and earthquakes.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29652638]Joe Pesci does [B]not[/B] fuck around.
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
And why did they write the New Testament?[/QUOTE]
Because someone had to Chronicle Christs time on Earth.
Can we stop trying this on FP? We see the same arguments every single time.
[QUOTE=Taishu;29652668]Though it's true that the old testament is worse than the new one, there still are some key flaws. One of my major issues with it, is the premise that God, who is omnipotent, can "sacrifice" himself for us, and because of this we owe him our faith and our piety. What exactly can an omnipotent being sacrifice?
Which reminds me, I've yet to hear a good argument from the theists on the question of the existence of evil. The most often used one is the argument from free-will, however if God is omnipotent (and therefore also omniscient) free-will cannot exist, seeing as how everything would be predetermined.
It also fails to explain "natural" evil, such as hurricanes and earthquakes.[/QUOTE]
As well as the fact that there are so many different horrible things in the world today and I can't really imagine a god going, "Yep, Africa will be mostly war, and South America will be poorer than the North, and the UK will own a third of the world at some point."
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=Matix;29652695]Can we stop trying this on FP? We see the same arguments every single time.[/QUOTE]
Well then present them again for further debate, it happens with every other topic (death penalty, abortion, etc.) so how is religion any different in its argument style?
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=cyclocius;29652680]Because someone had to Chronicle Christs time on Earth.[/QUOTE]
Okay, well then here's another question. If God can just impregnate a virgin, why did he only have Jesus as his son and again, why stop providing miracles when we can finally verify and record what's going on?
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29652709]As well as the fact that there are so many different horrible things in the world today and I can't really imagine a god going, "Yep, Africa will be mostly war, and South America will be poorer than the North, and the UK will own a third of the world at some point."
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
Well then present them again for further debate, it happens with every other topic (death penalty, abortion, etc.) so how is religion any different in its argument style?
[editline]6th May 2011[/editline]
Okay, well then here's another question. If God can just impregnate a virgin, why did he only have Jesus as his son and again, why stop providing miracles when we can finally verify and record what's going on?[/QUOTE]
I don't know the answer to that one. A more religious person would probably have something to say but eh.
Yay, another shitstorm!
It's already been established the least bit of culture is cyanide to the majority of facepunch, they're too simple to appreciate it
I'm not religious myself, but I don't care if someone is. If it makes them happy, who am I to try and take that away? Even though the stories from, for example, the Old Testament, are very irrational, I'm still not gonna try and shove it through their throats that I think they are.
[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29652709]Well then present them again for further debate, it happens with every other topic (death penalty, abortion, etc.) so how is religion any different in its argument style?[/QUOTE]
Exactly. It's not different. That's why we shouldn't argue about any of these on FP, because the arguments always consist of naive and dated arguments that most of us have heard and deliberated to a ridiculous extent already. I don't think there's any possible way to create a "further debate" when we've taken it the farthest it can go many times over already.
Thinking is good. However arguements concerning it are pointless.
In my personal opinion, this is all surrounding imagination, symbolism and such. Nothing wrong with it, but it is when it's forced down people's throats and giving them no freedom to think.
If you really want my argument, here:
Religion was formed and thrives out of a combination of fear and discomfort with lack of knowledge. The most disgusting aspect is that people attribute their acts of goodness to God and religion, as if they would not do good things unless God told them to. Acts of goodness should occur for the sake of goodness, not God.
Goodness for the sake of God is the biggest contradiction to the righteous values commonly attributed with such, because it claims that no human on the face of this earth is truly good, and that we are all acting in fear of eternal damnation, or in service of some all-powerful creator. Atheist goodness is the only true goodness in this world. Even a religious person can perform atheist acts of goodness.
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