Giant vehicle pileup during Macau GT race causes race to suspend

[ignhelper]

[video=youtube;WuN421qNmxE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuN421qNmxE[/video]

[editline]20th November 2017[/editline]

Different angle:
[video=youtube;6QSEk4D7SmE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QSEk4D7SmE[/video]

[DMGaina]

The hell is wrong with the person filming the different angle.
HUGE CARPILEUP and she is still filming the people standing around it or the lamppost :v:

here is another angle:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY7vA_OuF2o&feature=youtu.be[/media]

[redBadger]

[QUOTE=DMGaina;52906473]The hell is wrong with the person filming the different angle.
HUGE CARPILEUP and she is still filming the people standing around it or the lamppost :v:
[/QUOTE]

Holding the camera vertical as well.

[Curls]

I wonder how expensive this crash was

[OXS]

911 really did impact on everyone else

[mastermaul]

[QUOTE=DMGaina;52906473]The hell is wrong with the person filming the different angle.
HUGE CARPILEUP and she is still filming the people standing around it or the lamppost :v:

here is another angle:
[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY7vA_OuF2o&feature=youtu.be[/media][/QUOTE]

I think that last guy is unscathed, I'm sure he's never been more glad to be last in his life.

[Araknid]

and a motorcyclist died on the track a day or two ago, and in 2012 a driver and a motorcyclist died, and in 2005 another person died.

This track is pathetically unsafe.

[CMX]

[QUOTE=Araknid;52907397]and a motorcyclist died on the track a day or two ago, and in 2012 a driver and a motorcyclist died, and in 2005 another person died.

This track is pathetically unsafe.[/QUOTE]

Maybe they should hold a race on a track thats wider than 1.5 car widths and maybe a bit of visibility.

[Mitsuma]

Only 4 of those were deemed safe to return to the race so it went from 20 to 8. :v:

[NO ONE]

[QUOTE=Araknid;52907397]and a motorcyclist died on the track a day or two ago, and in 2012 a driver and a motorcyclist died, and in 2005 another person died.

This track is pathetically unsafe.[/QUOTE]

History almost always trumps safety. Look at Monaco (no recent deaths, but horribly impractical and unsafe by modern standards), the Isle Of Man, Nurburgring (has been improved, but still much more dangerous compared to other circuits), Spa (again, improved, but has seen deaths in recent years), Circuit de La Sarthe/Le Mans, etc.

Isle Of Man in particular is incredibly deadly, with basically an average of 1-2 PER YEAR, with some years even having as much as 4 or 5! Still people will argue to keep it the way it is, and also argue that the riders fully acknowledge and agree to the risks (probably dead obvious, but it is a valid point).

Biker deaths can happen at just about any circuit, so the fact that there hasn't been even [I]more[/I] deaths at the circuit (I count 8, which isn't TOO bad given how long racing has been held there).

[QUOTE=Cmx;52907709]Maybe they should hold a race on a track thats wider than 1.5 car widths and maybe a bit of visibility.[/QUOTE]

On one hand, it is just barely wide enough for bikes, as well as cars (at the widest points), but on the other hand, the super narrow parts just make for bad racing. The races can really be hit or miss, sometimes having great battles, other times parades in which only 1-2 overtakes ever happen.

[JennyC6]

[QUOTE=NO ONE;52907802]History almost always trumps safety. Look at Monaco (no recent deaths, but horribly impractical and unsafe by modern standards), the Isle Of Man, Nurburgring (has been improved, but still much more dangerous compared to other circuits), Spa (again, improved, but has seen deaths in recent years), Circuit de La Sarthe/Le Mans, etc.

Isle Of Man in particular is incredibly deadly, with basically an average of 1-2 PER YEAR, with some years even having as much as 4 or 5! Still people will argue to keep it the way it is, and also argue that the riders fully acknowledge and agree to the risks (probably dead obvious, but it is a valid point).

Biker deaths can happen at just about any circuit, so the fact that there hasn't been even [I]more[/I] deaths at the circuit (I count 8, which isn't TOO bad given how long racing has been held there).

On one hand, it is just barely wide enough for bikes, as well as cars (at the widest points), but on the other hand, the super narrow parts just make for bad racing. The races can really be hit or miss, sometimes having great battles, other times parades in which only 1-2 overtakes ever happen.[/QUOTE]

A counterpoint is the super 'safe' tracks are criminally boring. I'm all for preventing needless deaths but taking it to the extremes we see in the Tilke tracks is killing the racing as much as the deaths themselves did. Nobody's found the happy medium where the races are still exciting to watch but the tracks aren't killing drivers.

It's also worth mentioning that the cars themselves are getting so good at protecting the drivers that a lot of the things that make certain tracks 'unsafe'....don't. Not in the modern cars. They can turn a certain death impact into a walk-away impact. I'm fairly certain this is why we haven't lost anyone at Monaco in ages. We've had some damned gnarly hits there in recent years(IIRC it was Sergio Perez that took an extra hard side-on lick at the end of the fastest part of Monaco and he was back in the car within two races, despite that wreck meaning almost certain death in a car just ten years older than what he was driving at the time), but nobody's been seriously hurt or killed there, and I chalk that up to the cars themselves. Modern racecars are getting so good that, honestly, a lot of the old methods of making the racing safer can be removed and it won't make it any less dangerous while making the racing better for the fans and more fun for the drivers. NASCAR, between full deployment of SAFER barriers and general improvements in the cars themselves, could get away with reducing the amount of restriction used at Talledega and Daytona. As it sits now they could run 220 down the back straight and not be in any more danger of a fatality than they are at 195-205. Throw in better tires from Goodyear that could handle the strain and they could probably get away with outright removing the plates, letting the guys run 220+ through the banking and nearly 250 on the back straight. The FIA could easily let the F1 guys have another 10 or 15 pounds of boost(And a corresponding extra 200-300HP). The list goes on and on.

And of course there is always an element. Bike racing, you already mentioned. Formula 1 and its feeder series have another one where, regardless of how safe the cars or the track are, you can still bite the big one at random. Felipe Massa was gods damned lucky when that spring hit him in the head, the fact that he's able to walk at all is a miracle much less that he's competitive enough to remain in the sport after recovering is astonishing. And there's fuck all that can be done to prevent that which preserves the 'open cockpit' aspect of F1. A windshield would have had little problem deflecting that spring, but it also negates the very spirit of F1 design, and is widely resisted by drivers and fans alike.

[Drury]

[QUOTE=-Xemit-;52908029]Macau makes for some incredible moments
[media]https://youtu.be/DEt61SXAM9I?t=2m10s[/media]
Skip to 2:10 to get to the point[/QUOTE]

So glad I didn't, the buildup made it so much better.

[NO ONE]

[QUOTE=TestECull;52907898]A counterpoint is the super 'safe' tracks are criminally boring. I'm all for preventing needless deaths but taking it to the extremes we see in the Tilke tracks is killing the racing as much as the deaths themselves did. Nobody's found the happy medium where the races are still exciting to watch but the tracks aren't killing drivers.

It's also worth mentioning that the cars themselves are getting so good at protecting the drivers that a lot of the things that make certain tracks 'unsafe'....don't. Not in the modern cars. They can turn a certain death impact into a walk-away impact. I'm fairly certain this is why we haven't lost anyone at Monaco in ages. We've had some damned gnarly hits there in recent years(IIRC it was Sergio Perez that took an extra hard side-on lick at the end of the fastest part of Monaco and he was back in the car within two races, despite that wreck meaning almost certain death in a car just ten years older than what he was driving at the time), but nobody's been seriously hurt or killed there, and I chalk that up to the cars themselves. Modern racecars are getting so good that, honestly, a lot of the old methods of making the racing safer can be removed and it won't make it any less dangerous while making the racing better for the fans and more fun for the drivers. NASCAR, between full deployment of SAFER barriers and general improvements in the cars themselves, could get away with reducing the amount of restriction used at Talledega and Daytona. As it sits now they could run 220 down the back straight and not be in any more danger of a fatality than they are at 195-205. Throw in better tires from Goodyear that could handle the strain and they could probably get away with outright removing the plates, letting the guys run 220+ through the banking and nearly 250 on the back straight. The FIA could easily let the F1 guys have another 10 or 15 pounds of boost(And a corresponding extra 200-300HP). The list goes on and on.

And of course there is always an element. Bike racing, you already mentioned. Formula 1 and its feeder series have another one where, regardless of how safe the cars or the track are, you can still bite the big one at random. Felipe Massa was gods damned lucky when that spring hit him in the head, the fact that he's able to walk at all is a miracle much less that he's competitive enough to remain in the sport after recovering is astonishing. And there's fuck all that can be done to prevent that which preserves the 'open cockpit' aspect of F1. A windshield would have had little problem deflecting that spring, but it also negates the very spirit of F1 design, and is widely resisted by drivers and fans alike.[/QUOTE]

I can't hate on all Tilkedrome tracks like many people; I much enjoy COTA, A1/Red Bull Ring, even Sepang isn't half-bad (mostly due to the crazy Malaysian weather, and crazy heat making things difficult for both car an driver).

Still, many of them are still bad, and I think it mainly comes down to lack of elevation change, more so than excess run off. Monza is a great exception, but in general I find the more elevation change, the better the racing. I'll also cite VIR, lots of run off, albeit in the form of grass. But also great elevation change. The track has still seen many crazy crashes, as well as 4 deaths since the reopening in 2000.

You're also damn right about Massa, he is incredibly lucky. I would probably pin point a lot his luck being down to the carbon fiber helmet. Another thing though, is looking at his record after the incident, one could argue he never quite reached the same level of competitiveness. Whether the accident and recovery afterwards was the main factor, or if it was more a combination of age, lack of confidence, and so on, it's clear he's had some very stiff competition since then.

It is also true that modern safety tech in most major series is almost [I]too good[/I], giving the driver's the sense of invincibility at times. Not that I don't like hard racing and such, but some times you see guys take such unnecessary risks it gets infuriating.

[JennyC6]

[QUOTE=NO ONE;52908678]I can't hate on all Tilkedrome tracks like many people; I much enjoy COTA, A1/Red Bull Ring, even Sepang isn't half-bad (mostly due to the crazy Malaysian weather, and crazy heat making things difficult for both car an driver).[/quote]

COTA and Sepang are the only ones worth watching, partly because COTA has NASCAR races on it(And that's always fun to watch!) and partly because of the Malaysian weather and temperatures throwing a monkey wrench into what would otherwise be another Tilkedrome Patented Parade.

NASCAR's no safe haven, though. While NASCAR doesn't have the Tilkedrome problem, they have an analog: Mile-and-a-half tri-ovals. Same thing ends up happening there, races turn into fuel economy parades. The short tracks(1 mi and less), the plate tracks, and the road course are all good fun to watch, but the bulk of the season is run on those mile-and-a-half tracks. They're why I moved away from NASCAR and over to F1 in the first place. Well, part of it, but NASCAR nipped the Car of Tomorrow in the bud and is better off for it.

[quote]...and I think it mainly comes down to lack of elevation change, more so than excess run off. [/quote]

I'll grant this is a big part of it. I'd like to amend the run-off comment a bit, though.

[i]Paved[/i] run-off can get fucked. Grass, sand traps, they serve the purpose AND give an element of risk to it. Not to life and limb, but to the race. Do you want to charge in head-long with that aggressive pass and risk throwing the whole race away because you got it stuck in the kitty litter? And if you're pressuring the guy in front of you, on a track where the runoff is paved, he makes a mistake....and then ten yards later he's whipping back around you again.

With paved runoff there is no risk whatsoever and mistakes....don't really matter.

If I were designing a race track for normal road course action, I'd incorporate these elements:

* Some high speed sweepers, probably banked at 20-30 degrees.

* A 1.5-2.0 mile straightaway, long as the shortest length the racing bodies I'm hoping to attract there will allow. Might make this wide enough to host NHRA drag racing, but be reconfigured later on for road racing.

* Chicanes kept to a minimum

* Track will be about 2.5 lanes wide on average

* Runoff space will be plentiful...mostly...but none of it will be paved. Grass and sand traps will comprise it.

* Concrete barriers will form a final perimeter, but between them and the race cars, SAFER Barriers and tire walls will also be fitted to cushion impacts.

* Pit row will be long enough for 50 pit stalls. Might split it into two seperate entities, each 25 stalls long, to try to minimize the travel time on pit row in the first place.

* Plenty of elevation change, up and down, including on corners.

* 10-15 turns in total

* At least one hairpin leading out onto a sizeable straight, perhaps as the final turn before heading down the main straight. Always fun to watch two cars jockeying for position come out of a hairpin and drag race each other across the start/finish line while thrashing the engines for all they're worth!

I think it'd make an awesome track that would be fun to watch a race on, fun for the drivers to race on, and still be safe enough to not kill anyone when the cars go rubber-side-up as they so often do. And it'd support more than [I]just[/I] NASCAR, or [I]just[/I] F1.

[quote]You're also damn right about Massa, he is incredibly lucky. I would probably pin point a lot his luck being down to the carbon fiber helmet. Another thing though, is looking at his record after the incident, one could argue he never quite reached the same level of competitiveness. Whether the accident and recovery afterwards was the main factor, or if it was more a combination of age, lack of confidence, and so on, it's clear he's had some very stiff competition since then.[/quote]

Oh, I'm not doubting one bit that he's not the same driver he was before hand. But he did recover enough skill, enough competitiveness, to remain in the car with ferrari for ages.

[quote]It is also true that modern safety tech in most major series is almost [I]too good[/I], giving the driver's the sense of invincibility at times. Not that I don't like hard racing and such, but some times you see guys take such unnecessary risks it gets infuriating.[/QUOTE]

I honestly wish they'd take more risks. Most of my gripes with motorsport these days...doesn't matter what discipline we're talking about...come down to the racing ending up being a fancy parade. F1 is HORRIBLE about this. Between the drivers not taking risks and not trying to pass one another, the tire rules, the asinine boost restrictions and fuel economy rules, I gave up on F1 two years ago now. I watched a couple seasons where Vettel was king and the races were RBR 1-2s before they were even run, when Mercedes took the top spot I found myself bored to tears by it and stopped watching entirely. Parade parade parade parade parade. Part of it is running on so many Tilkedrome tracks, part of it is the FIA's bullshit, and part of it is the drivers aren't willing to take that risk.

And it isn't because they're afraid of getting hurt.

No, they're afraid of burning up their stupid, shitty Pirellies. They're afraid of using too much fuel and getting DQ'd/fined after post-race inspection. They're afraid of using up too much life from the engine and transmission. The Tilkedrome tracks only really leave one or two passing spots, and those are rendered rather moot by the DRS system as any successful moves in the corner are countered as soon as the driver you just passed hits the DRS zone, flips his rear wing up, while you can't counter with your own.

They're actively discouraged from [B]racing one another[/B] by so many aspects of the sport it frustrates me to hell and back. Funnily, I caught the last 20 laps or so of the last race at Talledega and that was legit fun to watch. Ok, ok, those guys crashed into each other about 6 times and the final tally of running racecars out of a starting field of 43 was around 12 or 13, but it was still exciting to watch, and those guys were working their cars, the track, the draft, all trying to jockey for the top spot. The race was decided by a couple of feet, not half the fucking track like is so often the case in F1. [I]I want to see that sort of close, action packed racing in every discipline.[/I]

[hypno-toad]

Nothing quite like the gentle, faint sound of millions of dollars of fiberglass and carbon fiber crackling and crunching in a matter of seconds

[Zadrave]

This is me when playing racing sims

[Drury]

If I were to design a race track it would essentially be N.Gin Labs, giant rolling barrels and all.

[Cpn Crunch21]

If you look closely at the second video you can see the third car (black) leave a banana peel for the next car to slip on. Classic Mariokart placement to put it at the apex of a turn like that.

[NO ONE]

[QUOTE=TestECull;52910073]COTA and Sepang are the only ones worth watching, partly because COTA has NASCAR races on it(And that's always fun to watch!) and partly because of the Malaysian weather and temperatures throwing a monkey wrench into what would otherwise be another Tilkedrome Patented Parade.

NASCAR's no safe haven, though. While NASCAR doesn't have the Tilkedrome problem, they have an analog: Mile-and-a-half tri-ovals. Same thing ends up happening there, races turn into fuel economy parades. The short tracks(1 mi and less), the plate tracks, and the road course are all good fun to watch, but the bulk of the season is run on those mile-and-a-half tracks. They're why I moved away from NASCAR and over to F1 in the first place. Well, part of it, but NASCAR nipped the Car of Tomorrow in the bud and is better off for it.

I'll grant this is a big part of it. I'd like to amend the run-off comment a bit, though.

[i]Paved[/i] run-off can get fucked. Grass, sand traps, they serve the purpose AND give an element of risk to it. Not to life and limb, but to the race. Do you want to charge in head-long with that aggressive pass and risk throwing the whole race away because you got it stuck in the kitty litter? And if you're pressuring the guy in front of you, on a track where the runoff is paved, he makes a mistake....and then ten yards later he's whipping back around you again.

With paved runoff there is no risk whatsoever and mistakes....don't really matter.

If I were designing a race track for normal road course action, I'd incorporate these elements:

* Some high speed sweepers, probably banked at 20-30 degrees.

* A 1.5-2.0 mile straightaway, long as the shortest length the racing bodies I'm hoping to attract there will allow. Might make this wide enough to host NHRA drag racing, but be reconfigured later on for road racing.

* Chicanes kept to a minimum

* Track will be about 2.5 lanes wide on average

* Runoff space will be plentiful...mostly...but none of it will be paved. Grass and sand traps will comprise it.

* Concrete barriers will form a final perimeter, but between them and the race cars, SAFER Barriers and tire walls will also be fitted to cushion impacts.

* Pit row will be long enough for 50 pit stalls. Might split it into two seperate entities, each 25 stalls long, to try to minimize the travel time on pit row in the first place.

* Plenty of elevation change, up and down, including on corners.

* 10-15 turns in total

* At least one hairpin leading out onto a sizeable straight, perhaps as the final turn before heading down the main straight. Always fun to watch two cars jockeying for position come out of a hairpin and drag race each other across the start/finish line while thrashing the engines for all they're worth!

I think it'd make an awesome track that would be fun to watch a race on, fun for the drivers to race on, and still be safe enough to not kill anyone when the cars go rubber-side-up as they so often do. And it'd support more than [I]just[/I] NASCAR, or [I]just[/I] F1.

Oh, I'm not doubting one bit that he's not the same driver he was before hand. But he did recover enough skill, enough competitiveness, to remain in the car with ferrari for ages.

I honestly wish they'd take more risks. Most of my gripes with motorsport these days...doesn't matter what discipline we're talking about...come down to the racing ending up being a fancy parade. F1 is HORRIBLE about this. Between the drivers not taking risks and not trying to pass one another, the tire rules, the asinine boost restrictions and fuel economy rules, I gave up on F1 two years ago now. I watched a couple seasons where Vettel was king and the races were RBR 1-2s before they were even run, when Mercedes took the top spot I found myself bored to tears by it and stopped watching entirely. Parade parade parade parade parade. Part of it is running on so many Tilkedrome tracks, part of it is the FIA's bullshit, and part of it is the drivers aren't willing to take that risk.

And it isn't because they're afraid of getting hurt.

No, they're afraid of burning up their stupid, shitty Pirellies. They're afraid of using too much fuel and getting DQ'd/fined after post-race inspection. They're afraid of using up too much life from the engine and transmission. The Tilkedrome tracks only really leave one or two passing spots, and those are rendered rather moot by the DRS system as any successful moves in the corner are countered as soon as the driver you just passed hits the DRS zone, flips his rear wing up, while you can't counter with your own.

They're actively discouraged from [B]racing one another[/B] by so many aspects of the sport it frustrates me to hell and back. Funnily, I caught the last 20 laps or so of the last race at Talledega and that was legit fun to watch. Ok, ok, those guys crashed into each other about 6 times and the final tally of running racecars out of a starting field of 43 was around 12 or 13, but it was still exciting to watch, and those guys were working their cars, the track, the draft, all trying to jockey for the top spot. The race was decided by a couple of feet, not half the fucking track like is so often the case in F1. [I]I want to see that sort of close, action packed racing in every discipline.[/I][/QUOTE]

I suppose you should get more in to watching rallying or hillclimbing. WRC has a really cheap subscription program, although I think Red Bull TV started putting up the replays for free or something. I tend to watch Rally Monte Carlo and Rally Finland, maybe even a tiny bit of Mexico. Once the main seasons start up though, I tend to migrate back to wheel to wheel racing.

I attended the Mt.Washington hillclimb this year; that was quite a treat. Although at the same time, it's just a tiny bit anticlimatic to think the top speed is only around 115mph, and that's with Subaru's 660hp beast they brought. For sure, with the context of that speed being on a windy and twisty mountain road, just wide enough for two lane traffic, it sounds crazy. But in the grand scheme of things, it's kinda slow! But still, I should shut up about that, the on board videos are amazing and I had a great time watching everyone, including a friend that ran his NB Miata.

I do kinda think this track might make a better race than Baku currently does. I suppose that's a bit of a different topic; but considering F3 races there, it might be a nice tie in.

[Zombii]

[QUOTE=TestECull;52910073]COTA and Sepang are the only ones worth watching, partly because COTA has NASCAR races on it(And that's always fun to watch!) and partly because of the Malaysian weather and temperatures throwing a monkey wrench into what would otherwise be another Tilkedrome Patented Parade.

NASCAR's no safe haven, though. While NASCAR doesn't have the Tilkedrome problem, they have an analog: Mile-and-a-half tri-ovals. Same thing ends up happening there, races turn into fuel economy parades. The short tracks(1 mi and less), the plate tracks, and the road course are all good fun to watch, but the bulk of the season is run on those mile-and-a-half tracks. They're why I moved away from NASCAR and over to F1 in the first place. Well, part of it, but NASCAR nipped the Car of Tomorrow in the bud and is better off for it.

I'll grant this is a big part of it. I'd like to amend the run-off comment a bit, though.

[i]Paved[/i] run-off can get fucked. Grass, sand traps, they serve the purpose AND give an element of risk to it. Not to life and limb, but to the race. Do you want to charge in head-long with that aggressive pass and risk throwing the whole race away because you got it stuck in the kitty litter? And if you're pressuring the guy in front of you, on a track where the runoff is paved, he makes a mistake....and then ten yards later he's whipping back around you again.

With paved runoff there is no risk whatsoever and mistakes....don't really matter.

If I were designing a race track for normal road course action, I'd incorporate these elements:

* Some high speed sweepers, probably banked at 20-30 degrees.

* A 1.5-2.0 mile straightaway, long as the shortest length the racing bodies I'm hoping to attract there will allow. Might make this wide enough to host NHRA drag racing, but be reconfigured later on for road racing.

* Chicanes kept to a minimum

* Track will be about 2.5 lanes wide on average

* Runoff space will be plentiful...mostly...but none of it will be paved. Grass and sand traps will comprise it.

* Concrete barriers will form a final perimeter, but between them and the race cars, SAFER Barriers and tire walls will also be fitted to cushion impacts.

* Pit row will be long enough for 50 pit stalls. Might split it into two seperate entities, each 25 stalls long, to try to minimize the travel time on pit row in the first place.

* Plenty of elevation change, up and down, including on corners.

* 10-15 turns in total

* At least one hairpin leading out onto a sizeable straight, perhaps as the final turn before heading down the main straight. Always fun to watch two cars jockeying for position come out of a hairpin and drag race each other across the start/finish line while thrashing the engines for all they're worth!

I think it'd make an awesome track that would be fun to watch a race on, fun for the drivers to race on, and still be safe enough to not kill anyone when the cars go rubber-side-up as they so often do. And it'd support more than [I]just[/I] NASCAR, or [I]just[/I] F1.

Oh, I'm not doubting one bit that he's not the same driver he was before hand. But he did recover enough skill, enough competitiveness, to remain in the car with ferrari for ages.

I honestly wish they'd take more risks. Most of my gripes with motorsport these days...doesn't matter what discipline we're talking about...come down to the racing ending up being a fancy parade. F1 is HORRIBLE about this. Between the drivers not taking risks and not trying to pass one another, the tire rules, the asinine boost restrictions and fuel economy rules, I gave up on F1 two years ago now. I watched a couple seasons where Vettel was king and the races were RBR 1-2s before they were even run, when Mercedes took the top spot I found myself bored to tears by it and stopped watching entirely. Parade parade parade parade parade. Part of it is running on so many Tilkedrome tracks, part of it is the FIA's bullshit, and part of it is the drivers aren't willing to take that risk.

And it isn't because they're afraid of getting hurt.

No, they're afraid of burning up their stupid, shitty Pirellies. They're afraid of using too much fuel and getting DQ'd/fined after post-race inspection. They're afraid of using up too much life from the engine and transmission. The Tilkedrome tracks only really leave one or two passing spots, and those are rendered rather moot by the DRS system as any successful moves in the corner are countered as soon as the driver you just passed hits the DRS zone, flips his rear wing up, while you can't counter with your own.

They're actively discouraged from [B]racing one another[/B] by so many aspects of the sport it frustrates me to hell and back. Funnily, I caught the last 20 laps or so of the last race at Talledega and that was legit fun to watch. Ok, ok, those guys crashed into each other about 6 times and the final tally of running racecars out of a starting field of 43 was around 12 or 13, but it was still exciting to watch, and those guys were working their cars, the track, the draft, all trying to jockey for the top spot. The race was decided by a couple of feet, not half the fucking track like is so often the case in F1. [I]I want to see that sort of close, action packed racing in every discipline.[/I][/QUOTE]

I agree with your last paragraph. This is why drivers like Max are so refreshing. Thankfully the new owners of F1 are listening to the fans, and maybe with time we will see the removal/relaxation of PU component limits, better tires (this years tires were actually very good in allowing drivers to push, but not being so good that they could 1stop every race), and next season DRS may be counteracted by going back to driver deployed KERS rather than automatic. things are slowly moving in the right direction

[JennyC6]

[QUOTE=Zombii;52910857]I agree with your last paragraph. This is why drivers like Max are so refreshing. Thankfully the new owners of F1 are listening to the fans, and maybe with time we will see the removal/relaxation of PU component limits, better tires (this years tires were actually very good in allowing drivers to push, but not being so good that they could 1stop every race), and next season DRS may be counteracted by going back to driver deployed KERS rather than automatic. things are slowly moving in the right direction[/QUOTE]

Oh, good. I might actually pick F1 back up for 2018 then, see how the changes are affecting the racing. Maybe they can rekindle the spark.

I think it's part of why I've on more than one occasion found myself rewatching full uploads of historic races from the DFV era on up to the end of Senna's time with us. That all happened before any of that stuff showed up and those guys still pushed hard. Exciting racing for sure.

[QUOTE=NO ONE;52910847]I suppose you should get more in to watching rallying or hillclimbing. WRC has a really cheap subscription program, although I think Red Bull TV started putting up the replays for free or something. I tend to watch Rally Monte Carlo and Rally Finland, maybe even a tiny bit of Mexico. Once the main seasons start up though, I tend to migrate back to wheel to wheel racing.

I attended the Mt.Washington hillclimb this year; that was quite a treat. Although at the same time, it's just a tiny bit anticlimatic to think the top speed is only around 115mph, and that's with Subaru's 660hp beast they brought. For sure, with the context of that speed being on a windy and twisty mountain road, just wide enough for two lane traffic, it sounds crazy. But in the grand scheme of things, it's kinda slow! But still, I should shut up about that, the on board videos are amazing and I had a great time watching everyone, including a friend that ran his NB Miata.

I do kinda think this track might make a better race than Baku currently does. I suppose that's a bit of a different topic; but considering F3 races there, it might be a nice tie in.[/QUOTE]

Yah, rallying is the last bastion of actual racing. Shame it's such a bitch to get a hold of in the US. Nobody airs it on TV and I haven't the faintest idea where to find a stream of it over here that won't try to download every piece of malware known to man before it plays. One thing I dearly miss about the death of Speedvision, as they used to show WRC(And in fact introduced me to rallying in general!).

[Zombii]

[QUOTE=TestECull;52911220]Oh, good. I might actually pick F1 back up for 2018 then, see how the changes are affecting the racing. Maybe they can rekindle the spark.

I think it's part of why I've on more than one occasion found myself rewatching full uploads of historic races from the DFV era on up to the end of Senna's time with us. That all happened before any of that stuff showed up and those guys still pushed hard. Exciting racing for sure.

Yah, rallying is the last bastion of actual racing. Shame it's such a bitch to get a hold of in the US. Nobody airs it on TV and I haven't the faintest idea where to find a stream of it over here that won't try to download every piece of malware known to man before it plays. One thing I dearly miss about the death of Speedvision, as they used to show WRC(And in fact introduced me to rallying in general!).[/QUOTE]

this season was actually very good for f1. it wasnt quite as 'exciting' as the old seasons, but it was really a step in the right direction and there was a lot of good racing. both championships would have come to the final race if ferrari hadn't literally had a double DNF in singapore and a DNS and a start from 20th in sepang.

2018 will have a lot of good racing becuase mclaren and red bull (theoretically the two best chassis on the grid) will be using the same power unit next year. max and daniel (rb drivers) have shown that they are not afraid to be aggressive and push, and alonso (no. 1 driver at mclaren) has been chained up by the incredibly shitty honda power unit for 3 seasons, so he's going to go off the rails next season when he can actually compete.

[editline]21st November 2017[/editline]

also IIRC red bull streams all WRC stages on their YT channel? i think. if you're interested in 'real' circuit racing, you should also check out SuperGT from japan, those guys go balls to the wall every lap and the cars and circuits are amazing. those are all on tv via the nismo channel

[editline]21st November 2017[/editline]

also WEC has a really great streaming service that is like 50/year to watch all races as well as old and bonus content

[editline]21st November 2017[/editline]

also if you want to see some stupid but exciting formula car racing, watch f2, it is hilarious and awesome

[JennyC6]

[QUOTE=Zombii;52911247]this season was actually very good for f1. it wasnt quite as 'exciting' as the old seasons, but it was really a step in the right direction and there was a lot of good racing. both championships would have come to the final race if ferrari hadn't literally had a double DNF in singapore and a DNS and a start from 20th in sepang.

2018 will have a lot of good racing becuase mclaren and red bull (theoretically the two best chassis on the grid) will be using the same power unit next year. max and daniel (rb drivers) have shown that they are not afraid to be aggressive and push, and alonso (no. 1 driver at mclaren) has been chained up by the incredibly shitty honda power unit for 3 seasons, so he's going to go off the rails next season when he can actually compete.[/quote]

Ok, yes, I'm definitely checking out 2018. When I gave F1 up the drivers and constructors titles were decided 5-7 weeks before the end of the season. If they went to the wire to the point that it took a double DNF and a DNS/last place start to prevent it from coming down to the last race they've definitely been moving in the right direction, the one I want them to move.

...do I also smell a potential return to 'the whole grid uses this engine because it kicks ass' like we had back in the DFV era? That would be pretty awesome I think. Levels the power portion of the field out, makes it easier for new teams to come in(Why bother developing your own engine when this off-the-shelf engine is a proven championship winner?), and leaves it more to the suspension guys, aero guys, and driver to decide the race.

[quote]
also IIRC red bull streams all WRC stages on their YT channel? i think. [/quote]

I'll check it out, but if they only show their own cars and not the entire field I probably won't make it a habit of watching. [quote]if you're interested in 'real' circuit racing, you should also check out SuperGT from japan, those guys go balls to the wall every lap and the cars and circuits are amazing. those are all on tv via the nismo channel[/quote]

I used to catch BTCC and Aussie V8s when they were on the TV. They're also pretty good about actually racing the whole time, 'specially those BTCC guys where a top level car might only have 400HP and a race only lasts a few laps. There's really no reason for them to hold back beyond making sure the car isn't thoroughly trashed for the next heat. ANd of course the Aussie V8s run bumper to bumper because they're driven by Aussies :v:. Delicious V8 roars and aggressive pushing on some crazy tracks makes for good TV For sure.

Missed the Bathhurst 1000 last two years though :/

But then Speed got bought out and the new network...NBC I think...outright dropped both disciplines from the programming.

Paris-Dakar and Baja 1000 are also great fun. Different breed of rallying, and the only place you're liable to find a dirtbike directly competing against a cargo truck.

[Zombii]

[QUOTE=TestECull;52911287]Ok, yes, I'm definitely checking out 2018. When I gave F1 up the drivers and constructors titles were decided 5-7 weeks before the end of the season. If they went to the wire to the point that it took a double DNF and a DNS/last place start to prevent it from coming down to the last race they've definitely been moving in the right direction, the one I want them to move.

I'll check it out, but if they only show their own cars and not the entire field I probably won't make it a habit of watching.

I used to catch BTCC and Aussie V8s when they were on the TV. They're also pretty good about actually racing the whole time, 'specially those BTCC guys where a top level car might only have 400HP and a race only lasts a few laps. There's really no reason for them to hold back beyond making sure the car isn't thoroughly trashed for the next heat. ANd of course the Aussie V8s run bumper to bumper because they're driven by Aussies :v:. Delicious V8 roars and aggressive pushing on some crazy tracks makes for good TV For sure.

Missed the Bathhurst 1000 last two years though :/

But then Speed got bought out and the new network...NBC I think...outright dropped both disciplines from the programming.

Paris-Dakar and Baja 1000 are also great fun. Different breed of rallying, and the only place you're liable to find a dirtbike directly competing against a cargo truck.[/QUOTE]

paris-dakar and baja (and basically every other rally other than WRC, including WRX) are on motortrend on demand if you have that

also i apologize, i meant to say the nismo channel on YT, not TV, they stream all the supergt races with english commentary there. the red bull YT channel is also just the FIA world stream for WRC, not just their own cars i think. BTCC is also on motortrend on demand

[JennyC6]

Motortrend on Demand...yah. Sounds like a spiritual successor to Speedvision!

[editline]21st November 2017[/editline]

Oh, another comment I edited in before seeing your reply:

...do I also smell a potential return to 'the whole grid uses this engine because it kicks ass' like we had back in the DFV era? That would be pretty awesome I think. Levels the power portion of the field out, makes it easier for new teams to come in(Why bother developing your own engine when this off-the-shelf engine is a proven championship winner?), and leaves it more to the suspension guys, aero guys, and driver to decide the race.

[Zombii]

[QUOTE=TestECull;52911302]Motortrend on Demand...yah. Sounds like a spiritual successor to Speedvision!

[editline]21st November 2017[/editline]

Oh, another comment I edited in before seeing your reply:

...do I also smell a potential return to 'the whole grid uses this engine because it kicks ass' like we had back in the DFV era? That would be pretty awesome I think. Levels the power portion of the field out, makes it easier for new teams to come in(Why bother developing your own engine when this off-the-shelf engine is a proven championship winner?), and leaves it more to the suspension guys, aero guys, and driver to decide the race.[/QUOTE]

unfortunately we won't probably ever see a return to mono-suppliers, at least as long as there are constructors in F1. we already have the 'best' power unit on the grid (mercedes) in the back of lower teams (williams and force india), but those teams haven't shown the same performance as the main works team