Catalonia has declared independence - Polidicks

[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41780116[/url] This could get quite serious indeed. The regional leader must be shitting himself. I wonder what Spain will do in response?

Oh boy, here we go. God speed Catalonia.

Hold on to your butts...

Let's hope it lasts longer than 8 seconds this time

Please no civil war part 2

Spain is gonna respond with force. I'm calling it now.

[QUOTE=Mifil;52827030]Spain is gonna respond with force. I'm calling it now.[/QUOTE] They essentially said they will dismantle the Catalonian government by force if necessary, its never exactly been a secret.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52827041]Good call Catalonia. You have no arms, no armor, no aircraft, and no standing military. You have no means of protecting yourselves in any way, shape, or form. Furthermore you're out of the EU now, so now you're not protected by it. You've made the absolute worst choice possible, and I'll be surprised if you last 3 months.[/QUOTE] spain lost catalonia though, even if they reconquer it they won't ever have the native population on their side again and other countries have declared independence without having any kind of armies, international support, or much resources at all against a much stronger foreign power (including a certain country that celebrates their independence every year in early july). catalonia hasn't won independence by any means, but spain has lost catalonia

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52827041]Good call Catalonia. You have no arms, no armor, no aircraft, and no standing military. You have no means of protecting yourselves in any way, shape, or form. Furthermore you're out of the EU now, so now you're not protected by it. You've made the absolute worst choice possible, and I'll be surprised if you last 3 months.[/QUOTE] Spain will trash their international reputation if they use force.

If Spain tries something stupid it’ll just legitimize everything Catalonia seeks. Sorry Spain you had your place in the sun, now let the Catalans and Basque go.

[QUOTE=download;52827051]Spain will trash their international reputation if they use force.[/QUOTE] I believe they don't care after the police brutality during the voting.

[QUOTE=download;52827051]Spain will trash their international reputation if they use force.[/QUOTE] No, they won't. How many countries in EU support Catalonia and back their independence?

This is bad, if they succeed it'll set a bad precedent which could lead to Europe fracturing, which we can't afford to happen with the way Russia's been acting. (Small wonder the Russian Twitter bots have been going off supporting Catalonia's independence huh?)

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52827056]No, they won't. How many countries in EU support Catalonia and back their independence?[/QUOTE] If they use force then the response will be seen as disproportionate, because Catalonia can't. [QUOTE=ilikecorn;52827058]I doubt it, the UN effectively exists to make sure the status quo is maintained, there aren't any real repercussions for states that aren't 3rd world nations.[/QUOTE] Yeah, the UN being a paper tiger doesn't help. Right to Self Determination only counts when it can be used to ends of the Security Council. I don't see any outpouring of UN-based support for the Kurds, for example, despite them being a pretty clear cut case of it.

[QUOTE=Mifil;52827030]Spain is gonna respond with force. I'm calling it now.[/QUOTE] They won't unless they meet resistance and/or force from their regional police or their citizens. Thread reminder that police have orders to follow. If you stand between someone who has to be detained and them, you're only going to get asked to move away once, if anything. If you don't, they STILL have to follow their orders, and you're an obstacle in the way (and disobeying which is a law break but w/e).

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52827047]spain lost catalonia though, even if they reconquer it they won't ever have the native population on their side again and other countries have declared independence without having any kind of armies, international support, or much resources at all against a much stronger foreign power (including a certain country that celebrates their independence every year in early july). catalonia hasn't won independence by any means, but spain has lost catalonia[/QUOTE] America had a lot of resources and a great deal of support from France.

[QUOTE=Coment;52827085]They won't unless they meet resistance and/or force from their regional police or their citizens.[/QUOTE] You seriously think they're just going to give up their autonomy without any kind of resistance? If that was the case there would be no independence vote in the first place.

[QUOTE=Dan The Man;52827090]America had a lot of resources and a great deal of support from France.[/QUOTE] An ocean between our countries helped too, especially in an age when transatlantic crossings took months and orders were outdated by the time they were recieved.

By the way, a few fun facts from earlier: Other political parties proposed some deals to avoid the declaration. They were all voted NO. Then the independence vote came, and a few of them asked for the voting, which was public before, to suddenly become hidden via ballot. The opposers protested so and left the room. So they hid themselves from any complaints (from the spanish govt. which shouldn't be a problem if it's going to be its own country) and from the public. [QUOTE=Mifil;52827101]You seriously think they're just going to give up their autonomy without any kind of resistance? If that was the case there would be no independence vote in the first place.[/QUOTE] I don't, but I'm setting up the scene so you can't complain about "police brutality" because they push away people doing said resistance.

[QUOTE=download;52827051]Spain will trash their international reputation if they use force.[/QUOTE] P'sure the international community wont care, and Spain still remains more valuable than Catalonia.

Isn't there a sizable pro-Spanish movement within Catalonia as well? Would they potentially take their own actions about this, or is there not the civil willpower for that kind of thing?

I have zero clue what to think about this. From what I know a large amount of the Catalonian independence movement appears to stem from the Catalonia parliament losing a certain amount of autonomy over a decade ago. Is that correct? They appear to have been trying to have a legal referendum for a while as well, but we opposed by the government and the pro-unity side. So they have an illegal one... that the Spanish repress and make everything a mocky over. Independence passes... with less than 50% turn out. They try to have talks... that the Spanish won't allow. So they go for Independence... with less than 50% of the deputies voting for it. This all around seems like a shitty and horrible situation with everyone in Catalonia. I firmly believe Catalonia should have been allowed to have a referendum, but the time for that has passed. All I hope is that this will end peacefully.

[QUOTE=ilikecorn;52827041]Good call Catalonia. You have no arms, no armor, no aircraft, and no standing military. You have no means of protecting yourselves in any way, shape, or form. Furthermore you're out of the EU now, so now you're not protected by it. You've made the absolute worst choice possible, and I'll be surprised if you last 3 months.[/QUOTE] They're still in the EU and still part of Spain as far as any law is concerned, legally speaking the Catalonian government is acting outside the law and the declaration changes nothing

how much of their revenue comes from tourism because if they leave the EU, theyre losing a massive chunk and they won't be rejoining the EU, spain would never allow it

[QUOTE=Jcorp;52827144]Isn't there a sizable pro-Spanish movement within Catalonia as well? Would they potentially take their own actions about this, or is there not the civil willpower for that kind of thing?[/QUOTE] There is, and they've set up a manifestation for Sunday. They just haven't done much until now because (reasonably IMO) they just have to wait for the spanish govt. to restore its order with its bigger means. [QUOTE=BlackMageMari;52827150]I have zero clue what to think about this. From what I know a large amount of the Catalonian independence movement appears to stem from the Catalonia parliament losing a certain amount of autonomy over a decade ago. Is that correct? They appear to have been trying to have a legal referendum for a while as well, but we opposed by the government and the pro-unity side. So they have an illegal one... that the Spanish repress and make everything a mocky over. Independence passes... with less than 50% turn out. They try to have talks... that the Spanish won't allow. So they go for Independence... with less than 50% of the deputies voting for it. This all around seems like a shitty and horrible situation with everyone in Catalonia. I firmly believe Catalonia should have been allowed to have a referendum, but the time for that has passed. All I hope is that this will end peacefully.[/QUOTE] Quick notes: It wasn't losing autonomy as much as not [I]winning all it wanted[/I]. Out of the entire proposal, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Autonomy_of_Catalonia#2005_Draft"]PP removed 14 articles[/URL] on the basis of their unconstitutionality. After that, (and even considering the catalonian parties voted against it since they didn't like it as much), it was subjected to a legal referendum, where 49% voted Regarding trying to have talks... I've heard both sides saying the opposite didn't want to, so I won't get into it. It should be noted, however, that just yesterday he was thinking of calling snap elections, which would have stopped the applying of Article 155 and its govt takeover. [URL="https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017/10/26/catalan-president-carles-puigdemont-expected-to-make-tv-address-in-barcelona.html"]He decided against it, though.[/URL] [editline]27th October 2017[/editline] In a lighter tone, [I]it keeps happening[/I] [media]https://twitter.com/carlesvilaseca/status/923914059166179328[/media]

[QUOTE=download;52827051]Spain will trash their international reputation if they use force.[/QUOTE] Like if we ever cared about that. Also the EU commission already has picked Spain even after all the brutality so little it will happen. The sole hope we all have is that the next step doesn't involve using extreme force, this keeps going and going worse. I have several cousins there.

[QUOTE=Jcorp;52827144]Isn't there a sizable pro-Spanish movement within Catalonia as well? Would they potentially take their own actions about this, or is there not the civil willpower for that kind of thing?[/QUOTE] Considering [URL="http://www.france24.com/en/20171008-spain-catalonia-independence-pro-unity-rally-demonstration-rajoy-referendum"]350-950,000 people[/URL] protested in favor of unity in Barcelona earlier this month, yes they are a very sizeable group. [QUOTE=download;52827051]Spain will trash their international reputation if they use force.[/QUOTE] Literally no country voiced support for Catalan independence apart from Venezuela

[QUOTE=Kecske;52827325]Literally no country voiced support for Catalan independence apart from Venezuela[/QUOTE] That's not really relevant. Just because they don't support independence doesn't mean they'll support the use of force.

[QUOTE=Kecske;52827325]Considering [URL="http://www.france24.com/en/20171008-spain-catalonia-independence-pro-unity-rally-demonstration-rajoy-referendum"]350-950,000 people[/URL] protested in favor of unity in Barcelona earlier this month, yes they are a very sizeable group. Literally no country voiced support for Catalan independence apart from Venezuela[/QUOTE] Quite a lot condemned use of force by Spain though. Only a few outright said they wouldn't recognise Catalonia as an independent state, most just said the referendum was an internal issue.

Hm from that article: 16% of Spain's population live in Catalonia, and it produces: 25.6% of Spain's exports 19% of Spain's GDP 20.7% of foreign investment God this would be terrible for Spain, it would probably undermine the EU too.