• A brief word on critical thinking.
    49 replies, posted
Facepunch, I love you guys. I've been an active member for ages, and I've seen the forum evolve, big names come and go, and people who started young here grow older - As I have. I'm glad to see that new members continue to join us, and I always learn something new from discussions in GD, SH, MD and even... I can't believe I'm saying this - Fast Threads. Facepunch is a diverse community of generally liberal-minded, progressive people from many different countries and walks of life, engaged as students and professionals alike. There is a little food for thought I want to share that the older members among us may already be familiar with. Now, observing the recent news threads on North Korea's chest-thumping has brought this to mind. I noticed many FPers commenting that it was pointless trying to understand the motives of Best Korea because as a country, they are 'out of touch with reality'. It got me thinking about something that I learned the hard way. In classifying groups of people, whether living in a certain country, united under a political ideology, or holding certain strange beliefs as unintelligent, mentally unstable, or ignorant, we make the very same errors in judgment that we so scorn in others. I'll use a simple example: The invasion of Iraq in 2003 by the USA was widely criticized throughout the world. I remember thinking at first that the US government must be made up of idiots to have made such a colossal mistake. Certainly, everyone I knew made light of the dubious intelligence of one George W. Bush, and loudly asked how such a fool could be elected President of the United States. Then I learned a little history, studied the balance of power in the Middle East and how the United States had influenced it, and learned why the invasion really happened. What I began to see instead of a mass of idiots in government was a number of shrewd, ruthless and cruel strategists. What I'm trying to say here is that it's easy to dismiss people you don't understand as idiots. It's easy to blame weakness of character, narrow-mindedness or simple idiocy for the actions of others who use power in ways we do not approve of. In doing so, however, we discount them and give up on trying to understand their reasoning, and because we dismiss them as fools, we fail to see the bigger game being played. Idiocy may sometimes be the culprit, but rarely. It's much harder to think of them as intelligent, calculating men and women who deliberately look - Or have been made to look - like less than they are. When that step has been taken, however, and the assumption is made that a logical reason must exist for the strange behavior of the subject of your scrutiny, we can start to eliminate possibilities until we understand their true intent - Or have a better idea of it. The first thing you'll learn is this: Few idiots hold power. Just a lot of assholes.
Sounds like the opposite of Hanlon's Razor.
It's much easier for people to group people together and judge them en masse as opposed to seeing people as individuals and actually researching an issue. there are plenty of examples of that happening on this very forum, seeing issues as black and white as opposed to understand nothing is so simple
Also have to take in account that a great deal of Facepunch is filled with teenagers who haven't a care of whatever they're talking about and will automatically form an opinion on anything with only the smallest of information on the topic.
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;39849745]Also have to take in account that a great deal of Facepunch is filled with teenagers who haven't a care of whatever they're talking about and will automatically form an opinion on anything with only the smallest of information on the topic.[/QUOTE] I tend to agree, but that could also be a generalization of the sort I'd prefer to avoid.
[QUOTE=archangel125;39849893]I tend to agree, but that could also be a generalization of the sort I'd prefer to avoid.[/QUOTE] It's impossible to make an accurate judgement on any organization without knowing every single individual in it, which is just about impossible. Especially for website forums like Facepunch or nations like North Korea.
It seems a little odd to me that all these threats and preparations for war would be the best course of action for those in charge. What could anyone hope to gain from that?
[QUOTE=Krinkels;39850003]It seems a little odd to me that all these threats and preparations for war would be the best course of action for those in charge. What could anyone hope to gain from that?[/QUOTE] Internal strength. A nation at war abroad always distracts the populace from the woes at home if played as the most crucial issue of the country, regardless of strength. [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] NK peasant: I'm poor and hungry NK leader: It's because of the Americans, not us NK Peasant: Why aren't you stopping them? NK Leader: Look, we're preparing for war, look at the threats we've made
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;39850038]Internal strength. A nation at war abroad always distracts the populace from the woes at home if played as the most crucial issue of the country, regardless of strength. [editline]8th March 2013[/editline] NK peasant: I'm poor and hungry NK leader: It's because of the Americans, not us NK Peasant: Why aren't you stopping them? NK Leader: Look, we're preparing for war, look at the threats we've made[/QUOTE] Possibly. If you start a war that is so far disconnected from the people at home that they don't care about it, then it can backfire on you. Not saying it's the case in this situation, and I've probably worded my argument wrong anyway.
If you have an idea or opinion that is not of the majorities, you get a nice pile of boxes.
Critical thinking? facepunch? You guys proved that those two wounds shouldn't be put in a sentence along time ago. Still love you FP, never change.
I've kinda stopped trying to have serious discussions. They seem futile.
Humans don't like losing arguments.
I tend to see a lot of people here arguing for the sake of arguing, even when its obvious they are wrong. Normally that wouldn't be a problem but it usually centers the thread around them.
[QUOTE=zombojoe;39852668]I tend to see a lot of people here arguing for the sake of arguing, even when its obvious they are wrong. Normally that wouldn't be a problem but it usually centers the thread around them.[/QUOTE] I do that often in SH. It's honestly a fun way to pass the time for me.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39852649]Humans don't like losing arguments.[/QUOTE] And they love to assume.
[QUOTE=ClarkWasHere;39853769]And they love to assume.[/QUOTE] I think it's more out of necessity to avoid seeming dumb and ill-informed more than purposely, maliciously assuming things.
I just wish every participant in SH thread discussion actually read up on the factual information that exists around whatever thing that is being discussed. I think's it's okay assume certain things or to have separate opinions. But when you aren't looking at existing facts or try to make up facts which I know many, many users are doing. I just mark you as an idiot.
[QUOTE=Swebonny;39855005]I just wish every participant in SH thread discussion actually read up on the factual information that exists around whatever thing that is being discussed. I think's it's okay assume certain things or to have separate opinions. But when you aren't looking at existing facts or try to make up facts which I know many, many users are doing. I just mark you as an idiot.[/QUOTE]For quite a lot of things e.g. EU legislation, official government reports (if one lives in a country with a robust democracy), the source documents are readily available and perfectly understandable to the layman. Really irks me when I do the research, and I get naught but the equivalent of "no u" in return. For more scientific matters, the papers are either on a site that requires payment and/or is completely incomprehensible to someone not in the field, so it's more forgiveable imo.
No man considers himself evil (usually), and engaging them as if they were will get you nothing more than them on the defensive. Every person knows the right thing to do, but through rationalization many things get done.
I agree! I believe one should think critically of their own views as well. For example, if you are liberal (a lot of us are) you may immediately dismiss a policy created by a conservative, or a policy or idea which is fundamentally conservative. This is pretty immature to do, as it could still be a good idea. Take the time to do the research, weigh out both sides, and you'd be surprised. Sometimes, I find myself totally agreeing with an idea which I first thought was trash by keeping an open mind.
I agree with OP, it's a lazy cop-out to simply dismiss other groups of people as being idiots or somehow fundamentally stupider than us. However, stupidity and [i]ignorance[/i] are two very different things. I've met plenty of generally smart people who still hold the most asinine viewpoints because they don't bother to seek out knowledge and be informed about things. Are people who watch 100% Fox News stupider than everyone else? No, you can't assume that. Are people who watch 100% Fox News ignorant, less informed, and more likely to hold views in keeping with that? Yeah, there is an argument to be made there. I can understand that someone thinks Barack Obama was secretly born in Kenya because they don't have access to the facts and live in a culture of people who also don't have the facts and reinforce that belief, but that doesn't make them right, and it doesn't make that an acceptable belief to hold.
[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;39858538]I agree with OP, it's a lazy cop-out to simply dismiss other groups of people as being idiots or somehow fundamentally stupider than us. However, stupidity and [i]ignorance[/i] are two very different things. I've met plenty of generally smart people who still hold the most asinine viewpoints because they don't bother to seek out knowledge and be informed about things. Are people who watch 100% Fox News stupider than everyone else? No, you can't assume that. Are people who watch 100% Fox News ignorant, less informed, and more likely to hold views in keeping with that? Yeah, there is an argument to be made there. I can understand that someone thinks Barack Obama was secretly born in Kenya because they don't have access to the facts and live in a culture of people who also don't have the facts and reinforce that belief, but that doesn't make them right, and it doesn't make that an acceptable belief to hold.[/QUOTE] I disagree. The only reason you are saying Fox News makes people more ignorant is because YOU personally don't like Fox News. There is good information sometimes there, believe it or not, just like there is on any news station. You just don't agree with that particular bias. I do agree with your Obama example though. If there are no facts to back something up, that is not a well thought-out opinion.
[QUOTE=Ast_risk;39859234]I disagree. [B]The only reason you are saying Fox News makes people more ignorant is because YOU personally don't like Fox News.[/B] There is good information sometimes there, believe it or not, just like there is on any news station. You just don't agree with that particular bias. I do agree with your Obama example though. If there are no facts to back something up, that is not a well thought-out opinion.[/QUOTE]I have to quickly leave now so I can't get links, but polls fairly consistently show that Fox viewers are less informed than average, sometimes less than those who don't pay attention to any news.
[QUOTE=SL128;39860221]I have to quickly leave now so I can't get links, but polls fairly consistently show that Fox viewers are less informed than average, sometimes less than those who don't pay attention to any news.[/QUOTE] How would you quantify that though?
[QUOTE=Ast_risk;39859234]I disagree. The only reason you are saying Fox News makes people more ignorant is because YOU personally don't like Fox News. There is good information sometimes there, believe it or not, just like there is on any news station. You just don't agree with that particular bias. I do agree with your Obama example though. If there are no facts to back something up, that is not a well thought-out opinion.[/QUOTE] You said Fox News has "good information sometimes there". "Sometimes" is not good enough for a major news network to be worth of notation. Just because it occasionally does spew out a non-bias story doesn't necessarily prove Used Car Salesman completely wrong.
[QUOTE=Ast_risk;39859234]I disagree. The only reason you are saying Fox News makes people more ignorant is because YOU personally don't like Fox News. There is good information sometimes there, believe it or not, just like there is on any news station. You just don't agree with that particular bias. I do agree with your Obama example though. If there are no facts to back something up, that is not a well thought-out opinion.[/QUOTE] A broken clock is correct twice a day. However, you need to compare it to a working clock to see if it's correct.
[QUOTE=Ast_risk;39858254]I agree! I believe one should think critically of their own views as well. For example, if you are liberal (a lot of us are) you may immediately dismiss a policy created by a conservative, or a policy or idea which is fundamentally conservative. This is pretty immature to do, as it could still be a good idea. Take the time to do the research, weigh out both sides, and you'd be surprised. Sometimes, I find myself totally agreeing with an idea which I first thought was trash by keeping an open mind.[/QUOTE] I think of myself as a critical thinker of sorts and thinking ahead on topics has gotten flamed less in threads and even banned less over time. When I feel I've been completely defeated, I just leave a thread in acceptance. I've got too much pride to outright say "I was wrong" (though there have been a few times). That and I avoid posting in threads on topics I know nothing about. I've avidly avoided talking in any threads about Israel and Palestine, but now that I've taken a university course on the topic, I'm posting in them more and I'm not getting scolded at, so I must be doing something right.
[QUOTE=SL128;39860221]I have to quickly leave now so I can't get links, but polls fairly consistently show that Fox viewers are less informed than average, sometimes less than those who don't pay attention to any news.[/QUOTE] I believe that there's only been a single survey to try and quantify that and the results showed that liberal people who watch Fox News and conservative people who watch MSNBC had the lowest amount of knowledge. On the other hand, it has consistently been shown that Republicans are generally more informed than Democrats.
I wish people here would argue more civily. Especially when discussing sensetive topics.
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