G4S accused over torture and abuse at South African jail - Polidicks

[img]http://i.imgur.com/K3R3cJ7.jpg[/img] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-24699725[/url] [quote]Staff at one of South Africa's most dangerous prisons, run by British firm G4S, have been accused of "shocking" abuses and of losing control. The South African government has temporarily taken over the running of Mangaung prison from G4S and launched an official investigation. It comes after inmates claimed they had been subjected to electric shocks and forced injections. G4S says it has seen no evidence of abuse by its employees.[/quote] [url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/oct/28/g4s-prison-south-africa-torture-inmates-video]Video of the abuses from The Guardian[/url]

I've heard G4S can be incredibly dodgy. Coming from a family with many police members all I hear is about how they fuck something up or break rules.

[QUOTE=Thechuz1337;42673135]I've heard G4S can be incredibly dodgy. Coming from a family with many police members all I hear is about how they fuck something up or break rules.[/QUOTE] Lets not forget this either. [url]http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/04/jimmy-mubenga-coroner-report-deportations[/url]

[QUOTE=Thechuz1337;42673135]I've heard G4S can be incredibly dodgy. Coming from a family with many police members all I hear is about how they fuck something up or break rules.[/QUOTE] I'm in a similar family situation, hear a lot about how shit G4S is and how they're going to take over half the police force if no-one stops the idiots in Westminster destroying the police force.

Never understood why we have private-owned prisons anyway, other than the standard 'muh taxpayer money' argument. If somebody could enlighten me, that would be wonderful, but I suppose that as a socialist I'm not much inclined towards privatised anything.

[QUOTE=Jamsponge;42673381]Never understood why we have private-owned prisons anyway, other than the standard 'muh taxpayer money' argument. If somebody could enlighten me, that would be wonderful, but I suppose that as a socialist I'm not much inclined towards privatised anything.[/QUOTE] As a staunch anti-socialist, I agree with you here. Prisons are dodgy and dangerous enough in the hands of government. Having any twobit firm get that sort of power just makes it worse. But as for trying to explain it..... the long and short of it is that government prisons tend to be massive money sinks even in the well-to-do-countries, with for-profit operations going on just to try and make the sink a little bit less steep, partially because state-run prisons tend to have certain inefficiencies (like in guard training, guard payment, unionization, strict standards, or on the other hand endemic corruption, etc). And of course, every cent that goes into prisons is a cent not going elsewhere. To say nothing of the fact that a lot of governments tend to use prisons inappropriately. The idea behind privatization is that by turning over prisons to certain trusted companies, you can reduce the burden on the government and taxpayer, weed out some of the inefficiencies, and generlaly get a much better deal. The company does the state's dirty work for some profit, the state gets less red on the balance sheet, and the company can maintain efficient standards. Yeaaah. It's a wonderful theory. But outside of a theory.... well... things tend to run into problems.

[QUOTE=Turtler;42673400]As a staunch anti-socialist, I agree with you here. Prisons are dodgy and dangerous enough in the hands of government. Having any twobit firm get that sort of power just makes it worse. But as for trying to explain it..... the long and short of it is that government prisons tend to be massive money sinks even in the well-to-do-countries, with for-profit operations going on just to try and make the sink a little bit less steep, partially because state-run prisons tend to have certain inefficiencies (like in guard training, guard payment, unionization, strict standards, or on the other hand endemic corruption, etc). And of course, every cent that goes into prisons is a cent not going elsewhere. To say nothing of the fact that a lot of governments tend to use prisons inappropriately. The idea behind privatization is that by turning over prisons to certain trusted companies, you can reduce the burden on the government and taxpayer, weed out some of the inefficiencies, and generlaly get a much better deal. The company does the state's dirty work for some profit, the state gets less red on the balance sheet, and the company can maintain efficient standards. Yeaaah. It's a wonderful theory. But outside of a theory.... well... things tend to run into problems.[/QUOTE] Out of curiosity, why are you a staunch anti-socialist?

[QUOTE=Zatar963;42673638]Out of curiosity, why are you a staunch anti-socialist?[/QUOTE] For one, 80~% of what people tend to refer to when they say "Socialist" is "Marxian(/Engellian) Socialist" (by which I don't necessarily mean "Communist", but also other socialist schools of thought that embrace several of the authoritarian aspects of his thesis as means and goals. I might expand this definition a bit further than I should, because I would classify a group like the die hard Communiards of Paris as fitting that even though they were contemporaries of M and E.). Marx's brand of socialism is something I find irredeemably totalitarian as well as stupid and dysfunctional, and while I can tolerate and even embrace stupidity and dysfunction totalitarianism is something I cannot. But beyond that I just don't think it makes sense foundationally, even when removed from the evil of Marx or various other thugs. I'm far more sympathetic to the pre-Marxist Utopians or to groups like the Social Dems/Dem Socialists, but even then I think the entire idea is still unsound. I do think that for all its' (many) flaws capitalistic market - when properly regulated and controlled by a freely elected government- is the best economic system (that we've come up with so far) for human prosperity and development. Even for the poor and those who get shafted. It is not a perfect system by any means, and if people can find a good way to improve it I'd be happy to hear. But I think when you start talking about things like calculating a "fair value" of labor separate from it is not only that said value differs, but that you're going to have to have some people doing the calculating. And these people are ultimately only human, which means they *will* make mistakes and shortcharge or overcharge something or somebody. Not unlike a market (or even a free one), mind. But the problem is that unlike a free market, it's harder and more troublesome to correct for that. Which means the costs mount. The way I figure: if you are going to have imprecision and injustice anyway, you should go with what is the most effective at what it does. That being said, I'll be the first to admit it is far from a perfect system, and I think government and central planning have its' essential roles. This article helpfully demonstrates one of them.

G4S hires some assholes. The ones at the super market near me yell at us for talking with the store owners. One gaurd that works at night tried to hit me with his golf cart. He swung at my friend, trying to punch him, and hit my other friend in the leg with the golf cart.

[QUOTE=Crash155;42673879]G4S hires some assholes. The ones at the super market near me yell at us for talking with the store owners. One gaurd that works at night tried to hit me with his golf cart. He swung at my friend, trying to punch him, and hit my other friend in the leg with the golf cart.[/QUOTE] Jesus Christ. Has anything been done to those scumbags?

Glad I'm not working for them anymore.

I used to work for these guys Ugh, never again

[QUOTE=Thechuz1337;42673135]I've heard G4S can be incredibly dodgy. Coming from a family with many police members all I hear is about how they fuck something up or break rules.[/QUOTE] This is mainly because their hiring standards are extremely lax, if there even are any. It's incredibly easy to score a job with them, but if you fuck up or decide to leave, then they'll take as much as they can from you.

[QUOTE=Turtler;42673887]Jesus Christ. Has anything been done to those scumbags?[/QUOTE] Everyone we know that works at the plaza hates them, but nothing has been done

Weren't these the guys that couldn't protect the London Olympics or some shit so they had to ask the army?

[QUOTE=Thomo_UK;42685800]Weren't these the guys that couldn't protect the London Olympics or some shit so they had to ask the army?[/QUOTE] I think they promised to provide more guards than they actually had. I've literally never heard anything good about these guys.

[QUOTE=Crash155;42685658]Everyone we know that works at the plaza hates them, but nothing has been done[/QUOTE] Christ. Sorry to hear. That sucks. You try getting a petition together? [QUOTE=Thomo_UK;42685800]Weren't these the guys that couldn't protect the London Olympics or some shit so they had to ask the army?[/QUOTE] They were indeed. Incompetent *and* Brutal. Real winners, no?

I see G4S vans all over my town. Probably seen more of them than I do police cars which is mildly worrying.

[QUOTE=Thechuz1337;42673135]I've heard G4S can be incredibly dodgy. Coming from a family with many police members all I hear is about how they fuck something up or break rules.[/QUOTE] G4S should stick to carrying money and protecting oil / gas facilities, that doesn't seem to go wrong for them. Everything else they do seems to go [B]horribly[/B] wrong for them. [editline]29th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=007JamesBond007;42685879]I see G4S vans all over my town. Probably seen more of them than I do police cars which is mildly worrying.[/QUOTE] If its vans transporting money or prisoners its really just securicor who have been doing that sort of thing since the dawn of time (or like 1930 something).