New York State passes budget that includes a $15 minimum wage hike, paid family leave and tax cuts.
57 replies, posted
[QUOTE]ALBANY, N.Y. -- Thursday night New York Governor Andrew Cuomo and legislative leaders held a news conference announcing that they had each come to an agreement on the state's 2016-2017 budget with just hours before the April 1 deadline.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://cnycentral.com/news/local/breakdown-ny-budget-comes-with-minimum-wage-increase-paid-family-leave-tax-cuts[/url]
Proud of my state for once.
shit for $15/hr I'll give up my $13/hr plumbing job and go flip burgers for that much.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50054671]shit for $15/hr I'll give up my $13/hr plumbing job and go flip burgers for that much.[/QUOTE]
Usually when the minimum wage increases, other jobs see increases in their wages in order to stay competitive irrc.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;50054711]Usually when the minimum wage increases, other jobs see increases in their wages in order to stay competitive irrc.[/QUOTE]
Yeah i'll be seeing $15/hr too, it'd be a miracle If I made more then that.
My boss told me "you may be out of a job soon because I might go flip burgers for $15 an hour and get out of plumbing."
Good job guys, NY has a high cost of living. Its good to see people get a little boost to help them out.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50054671]shit for $15/hr I'll give up my $13/hr plumbing job and go flip burgers for that much.[/QUOTE]
lmbo u r getting fucked at $13/hr as a plumber
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;50054711]Usually when the minimum wage increases, other jobs see increases in their wages in order to stay competitive irrc.[/QUOTE]
The pessimist in me doubts it, but this is a steady-ish wage rise. I just hope that employers try to keep their wage budgets tiny and tight, and just cut hours in response.
I work for a company that I heard bragging about how big and rich it is, while employees are getting 8 hour work weeks at worst, ~15 on average, 20 if their lucky.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
IMO a wage hike isn't enough. There should be reform in terms of hours given to prevent employees from getting shafted in hours. Of course, this could also lead to more employees getting laid off. I'm no economist.
hopefully this finds it's way to Iowa where the minimum wage is $7.25/hr
[QUOTE=Nautsabes;50054987]lmbo u r getting fucked at $13/hr as a plumber[/QUOTE]
I'm still just an apprentice.
Licensed plumbers make bank compared to us newbies. If I was licensed I'd fuck off and start my own business.
I work above minimum wage. What does this mean to me? Because I have licensing to do my job and all this other shit but if I can just switch to an entry level position and make more money than I do currently than I will.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
I actually live in NY so this effects me. I'm not sure it's a good or bad thing yet. I'm under the impression it's bad.
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;50055170]I work above minimum wage. What does this mean to me? Because I have licensing to do my job and all this other shit but if I can just switch to an entry level position and make more money than I do currently than I will.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
I actually live in NY so this effects me. I'm not sure it's a good or bad thing yet. I'm under the impression it's bad.[/QUOTE]
If you work above the current minimum wage but under 15$, then you're employer would need to start paying you at least 15$. If your employers don't raise it further than that, then yes you could easily go do an entry level job and make the same pay.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50054671]shit for $15/hr I'll give up my $13/hr plumbing job and go flip burgers for that much.[/QUOTE]
I'd live like a goddamn king if that was here.
Too bad whenever we get a minimum wage raise, everything else also gets raised...
I just read into it. NYC only by 2018 and the rest of NY after that. Areas north of NYC will only reach 12.50 by 2021.
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;50055170]I work above minimum wage. What does this mean to me? Because I have licensing to do my job and all this other shit but if I can just switch to an entry level position and make more money than I do currently than I will.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
I actually live in NY so this effects me. I'm not sure it's a good or bad thing yet. I'm under the impression it's bad.[/QUOTE]
A market won't survive by letting all of its talented employees in a city quit to do minimum wage. The whole point is that living under 15$/hour is considered poverty level for the area; it is unacceptable for any citizen working full time hours to be unable to afford a decent standard of living without debt. Companies are raking in record profit margins by not adjusting their pay rates to inflation and increases in costs of living; essentially without increases to minimum wage the businesses can effectively pay their employees less every year.
The end result is that companies that already pay 15$/hour are forced to increase their own wages as well; over time all wages will shift to reflect the new minimum wage.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;50055221]I just read into it. NYC only by 2018 and the rest of NY after that. Areas north of NYC will only reach 12.50 by 2021.[/QUOTE]
this is the "over time" part; an instant shift would break the economy so time is given for employers to adjust wages with stability
[QUOTE=Nautsabes;50054987]lmbo u r getting fucked at $13/hr as a plumber[/QUOTE]
Ya my cousin-inlaw is making pretty good money straight out of highschool, though his dad is like a idk general manager or something for roto-router so idk if that helps
He is licensed though
[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;50055213]I'd live like a goddamn king if that was here.
Too bad whenever we get a minimum wage raise, everything else also gets raised...[/QUOTE]
This is the second half of the problem to addressing growing wealth inequality. Unless we want to end up like China we need stronger economic reform.
[QUOTE=bitches;50055244]A market won't survive by letting all of its talented employees in a city quit to do minimum wage. The whole point is that living under 15$/hour is considered poverty level for the area; it is unacceptable for any citizen working full time hours to be unable to afford a decent standard of living without debt. Companies are raking in record profit margins by not adjusting their pay rates to inflation and increases in costs of living; essentially without increases to minimum wage the businesses can effectively pay their employees less every year.
The end result is that companies that already pay 15$/hour are forced to increase their own wages as well; over time all wages will shift to reflect the new minimum wage.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
this is the "over time" part; an instant shift would break the economy so time is given for employers to adjust wages with stability[/QUOTE]
You're right I was just wondering if it'd see any change in the next couple years. We're already moving out of state in at least two years because of how shitty NY's economy is and the terrible legislation.
[QUOTE=bitches;50055244]A market won't survive by letting all of its talented employees in a city quit to do minimum wage. The whole point is that living under 15$/hour is considered poverty level for the area; it is unacceptable for any citizen working full time hours to be unable to afford a decent standard of living without debt. Companies are raking in record profit margins by not adjusting their pay rates to inflation and increases in costs of living; essentially without increases to minimum wage the businesses can effectively pay their employees less every year.
The end result is that companies that already pay 15$/hour are forced to increase their own wages as well; over time all wages will shift to reflect the new minimum wage.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
this is the "over time" part; an instant shift would break the economy so time is given for employers to adjust wages with stability[/QUOTE]
Instead of just raising the minimum wage why don't we abolish all welfare and create a basic income to help people cover their basic needs and therefore meet the cost of living.
The way it is now is a never ending loop.
[QUOTE=LoganIsAwesome;50054711]Usually when the minimum wage increases, other jobs see increases in their wages in order to stay competitive irrc.[/QUOTE]
This is correct. If they didn't, businesses wouldn't be able to, well, stay in business because they wouldn't be able to get any employees :v:
[QUOTE=God of Ashes;50055086]hopefully this finds it's way to Iowa where the minimum wage is $7.25/hr[/QUOTE]
Same here in Kansas. Still daunts me for whenever I start the job market.
All you guys joking about flipping burgers are missing the irony here. Companies who pay minimum wage aren't lining up to hire more people at twice the price. A minimum wage hike just means they'll cut ours, do layoffs, automate. By the time this is over, you'll be ordering from a computer at every fast food restaurant in NYS.
Not to say we don't need a wage increase, but it's not exactly a move that makes more jobs.
[QUOTE=LtKyle2;50055303]Instead of just raising the minimum wage why don't we abolish all welfare and create a basic income to help people cover their basic needs and therefore meet the cost of living.
The way it is now is a never ending loop.[/QUOTE]
And that isn't? Basic income comes in, prices go up, income raises, prices go up. It's the same either way.
[QUOTE=Snowmew;50055712]All you guys joking about flipping burgers are missing the irony here. Companies who pay minimum wage aren't lining up to hire more people at twice the price. A minimum wage hike just means they'll cut ours, do layoffs, automate. By the time this is over, you'll be ordering from a computer at every fast food restaurant in NYS.
Not to say we don't need a wage increase, but it's not exactly a move that makes more jobs.
And that isn't? Basic income comes in, prices go up, income raises, prices go up. It's the same either way.[/QUOTE]
not exactly, but the idea is. a universal basic income would mean you don't [I]have[/I] to work to live, meaning you work for wanting.
a minimum wage is supposed to be a wage that you can sustain yourself on but its not pegged to anything automatically which means it requires these arduous fights to even get it to raise with inflation
[QUOTE=CodeMonkey3;50055221]I just read into it. NYC only by 2018 and the rest of NY after that. Areas north of NYC will only reach 12.50 by 2021.[/QUOTE]
This makes things more sensible. Living in NYC is significantly more expensive than living outside of it.
Please do read this thoroughly because it's good to know
I love it when people don't understand economics
But the best thing is, people don't [I]need[/I] to believe, because the results are going to happen regardless. Higher minimum wages do, factually, result in job loss. It just makes sense if you think about it: Let's say you're a fast food joint. For the sake of argument, you're open 24/7 and you generate 300 dollars revenue per hour, or just about 20 customers. You constantly employ 5 employees, each of which is paid 11 dollars an hour. Each hour, other expenses (the mortgage on the lot, the resources required to make hamburgers, etc) come to about 100 dollars. You only get to keep half of the money and the rest goes to BurgerCorp which you are incorporated under, so your profit calculation looks like this:
(300 / 2) - ((5 * 8) + 100) = 10 dollars per hour in profit. Now, that's all good as you're in the black, but now minimum wage is raised, and the calculation looks like this
(300 / 2) - ((5 * 15) + 100) = -25. Negative 25 dollars per hour in profit.
Now, these numbers are made up. They aren't accurate, but they DO show the economic problem. While it's unlikely that a minimum wage increase would make the businesses in the red, it WOULD drop their bottom line, and businesses exist for the sole purpose of getting more money, so... what can this BurgerCorp location do to increase their profit?
Option A:
Hire half as many employees and make them work twice as hard to regain lost profit
Option B:
Take the high overhead cost of getting computer terminals installed to take orders, cutting out the need for cashiers
Option C:
Close business in that area
Every single one of these options increases unemployment, and that's not even the worst part.
Let's assume for a second that the businesses just kinda..... TOOK the hit. They, for some reason, are okay with the employees costing a lot more to maintain now. The thing is, the business will still be operating in the red, so they have to get their money back somehow, and hey! They're selling a product, so why not get it back there? So now that burgers cost more to make, burgers are going to cost more to buy. Which means that even though the employees are making more money, these goods produced are going to cost more
With all that being said, this isn't even the worst part of all this. Not all goods are going to increase in price, primarily [I]inferior goods[/I] will. An inferior good is something that someone buys because they can't afford something better; fast food, shitty TVs, stuff from goodwill, etc. These goods are bought by lower income people, but are PRODUCED by people who work for minimum wage. Which means that [I]only for poor people, the price of living will go up.[/I]
Minimum wage plays an important role in stabilizing the economy but there is a limit to how high you can place it before issues arise.
[editline]2nd April 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=Sableye;50055761]not exactly, but the idea is. a universal basic income would mean you don't [I]have[/I] to work to live, meaning you work for wanting.
a minimum wage is supposed to be a wage that you can sustain yourself on but its not pegged to anything automatically which means it requires these arduous fights to even get it to raise with inflation[/QUOTE]
Universal basic income is an awesome idea that won't work until we can effectively automate the workforce way more than it is now.
Part-time minimum wage is not supposed to be a wage you can sustain yourself on, but a wage that prevents people from doing what Rockafeller did and paying people in Rockafeller funbux to spend at the Rockafeller general store.
[QUOTE=phygon;50055919]It just makes sense if you think about it:[/QUOTE]
Anyone who starts economic theory with this instead of with actual examples of said thing happening is full of shit 99% of the time.
I've seen so many things that are easily demonstrated to be wrong with real world examples starting with "if you just run through this hypothetical scenario divorced from any actual real world events, then that proves this correct!" and it's almost always related to economics.
[QUOTE=phygon;50055919]Please do read this thoroughly because it's good to know
I love it when people don't understand economics
But the best thing is, people don't [I]need[/I] to believe, because the results are going to happen regardless. Higher minimum wages do, factually, result in job loss. It just makes sense if you think about it: Let's say you're a fast food joint. For the sake of argument, you're open 24/7 and you generate 300 dollars revenue per hour, or just about 20 customers. You constantly employ 5 employees, each of which is paid 11 dollars an hour. Each hour, other expenses (the mortgage on the lot, the resources required to make hamburgers, etc) come to about 100 dollars. You only get to keep half of the money and the rest goes to BurgerCorp which you are incorporated under, so your profit calculation looks like this:
(300 / 2) - ((5 * 8) + 100) = 10 dollars per hour in profit. Now, that's all good as you're in the black, but now minimum wage is raised, and the calculation looks like this
(300 / 2) - ((5 * 15) + 100) = -25. Negative 25 dollars per hour in profit.
Now, these numbers are made up. They aren't accurate, but they DO show the economic problem. While it's unlikely that a minimum wage increase would make the businesses in the red, it WOULD drop their bottom line, and businesses exist for the sole purpose of getting more money, so... what can this BurgerCorp location do to increase their profit?
Option A:
Hire half as many employees and make them work twice as hard to regain lost profit
Option B:
Take the high overhead cost of getting computer terminals installed to take orders, cutting out the need for cashiers
Option C:
Close business in that area
Every single one of these options increases unemployment, and that's not even the worst part.
Let's assume for a second that the businesses just kinda..... TOOK the hit. They, for some reason, are okay with the employees costing a lot more to maintain now. The thing is, the business will still be operating in the red, so they have to get their money back somehow, and hey! They're selling a product, so why not get it back there? So now that burgers cost more to make, burgers are going to cost more to buy. Which means that even though the employees are making more money, these goods produced are going to cost more
With all that being said, this isn't even the worst part of all this. Not all goods are going to increase in price, primarily [I]inferior goods[/I] will. An inferior good is something that someone buys because they can't afford something better; fast food, shitty TVs, stuff from goodwill, etc. These goods are bought by lower income people, but are PRODUCED by people who work for minimum wage. Which means that [I]only for poor people, the price of living will go up.[/I]
Minimum wage plays an important role in stabilizing the economy but there is a limit to how high you can place it before issues arise.
[/QUOTE]
First of all, a business that is only viable because it underpays its employees is not a viable business, nor should it be.
Second, your final argument is that "minimum wage should rise up but it shouldn't be [b]too high[/b]" yet the argument you made before that is "we shouldn't raise minimum wage because of these made up numbers." Why is [b]$15 an hour[/b] too high, and what would you propose it be raised to instead?
Finally, assuming that product prices will rise in relation to minimum wage increase, [b]prove that the relative increase in cost of living will equal or surpass the relative increase in wages.[/b]
[QUOTE=phygon;50055919]Please do read this thoroughly because it's good to know
I love it when people don't understand economics
But the best thing is, people don't [I]need[/I] to believe, because the results are going to happen regardless. Higher minimum wages do, factually, result in job loss. It just makes sense if you think about it: Let's say you're a fast food joint. For the sake of argument, you're open 24/7 and you generate 300 dollars revenue per hour, or just about 20 customers. You constantly employ 5 employees, each of which is paid 11 dollars an hour. Each hour, other expenses (the mortgage on the lot, the resources required to make hamburgers, etc) come to about 100 dollars. You only get to keep half of the money and the rest goes to BurgerCorp which you are incorporated under, so your profit calculation looks like this:
(300 / 2) - ((5 * 8) + 100) = 10 dollars per hour in profit. Now, that's all good as you're in the black, but now minimum wage is raised, and the calculation looks like this
(300 / 2) - ((5 * 15) + 100) = -25. Negative 25 dollars per hour in profit.
Now, these numbers are made up. They aren't accurate, but they DO show the economic problem. While it's unlikely that a minimum wage increase would make the businesses in the red, it WOULD drop their bottom line, and businesses exist for the sole purpose of getting more money, so... what can this BurgerCorp location do to increase their profit?
Option A:
Hire half as many employees and make them work twice as hard to regain lost profit
Option B:
Take the high overhead cost of getting computer terminals installed to take orders, cutting out the need for cashiers
Option C:
Close business in that area
Every single one of these options increases unemployment, and that's not even the worst part.
Let's assume for a second that the businesses just kinda..... TOOK the hit. They, for some reason, are okay with the employees costing a lot more to maintain now. The thing is, the business will still be operating in the red, so they have to get their money back somehow, and hey! They're selling a product, so why not get it back there? So now that burgers cost more to make, burgers are going to cost more to buy. Which means that even though the employees are making more money, these goods produced are going to cost more
With all that being said, this isn't even the worst part of all this. Not all goods are going to increase in price, primarily [I]inferior goods[/I] will. An inferior good is something that someone buys because they can't afford something better; fast food, shitty TVs, stuff from goodwill, etc. These goods are bought by lower income people, but are PRODUCED by people who work for minimum wage. Which means that [I]only for poor people, the price of living will go up.[/I]
Minimum wage plays an important role in stabilizing the economy but there is a limit to how high you can place it before issues arise.
[/QUOTE]
A minimum wage increase will benefit lower income households because, while a minimum wage increase will force business to increase prices, they won't increase as much as the increase in wages because businesses that employ minimum wage workers don't exclusively serve low income households, the opposite is also true; other businesses won't increase their prices as much just because minimum wage businesses up their prices, in fact for them it would probably be beneficial because more people could afford to shop there. If anything a minimum wage increase will only really have a small hit on the middle class since some basic services would increase in price.
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;50056060]Anyone who starts economic theory with this instead of with actual examples of said thing happening is full of shit 99% of the time.
I've seen so many things that are easily demonstrated to be wrong with real world examples starting with "if you just run through this hypothetical scenario divorced from any actual real world events, then that proves this correct!" and it's almost always related to economics.[/QUOTE]
I was running through hypothetical scenarios because they're easier to understand, but this is well known and accepted in economics. Whether the longterm benefits will outweigh employment is debated, but there is no arguing that increasing minimum wage will have businesses seek to improve their profits in other ways (hiring less, cutting quality, charging more, etc)
[url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2016/02/19/seattles-15-minimum-wage-jobs-down-unemployment-up-this-isnt-working-is-it/#79ab94463712[/url]
[quote]
[IMG]http://blogs-images.forbes.com/timworstall/files/2016/02/seattle15minimumwage.png[/IMG]
As you can see we have a fall in the number of people employed in Seattle since that higher minimum wage began to bite. You should go see Perry’s post as he’s got three different charts and all three of them are telling us much the same thing. There’s fewer jobs, the unemployment rate is higher and the number of unemployed is higher. The combination of those three means that it’s not a change in population size driving this: it really is that more people who would like to have a job don’t have one.[/quote]
[url]http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/08/10/seattles-15-an-hour-measure-the-unemployment-effects-and-there-they-are/#5c8adce33e7d[/url]
[quote]
[img]http://blogs-images.forbes.com/timworstall/files/2015/08/seattle2.jpg[/img]
Now I would read that as stating that the increased minimum wage in Seattle has caused job losses. But then of course I would given that I’m a neoliberal lackey running dog of the capitalist plutocrats.
However, reality does rather seem to be running with the neoliberal lackey dogs of the capitalist plutocrats, doesn’t it? Higher minimum wages cause job losses.
My word aren’t we all surprised?
[/quote]
[url]http://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/052815/does-raising-minimum-wage-increase-inflation.asp[/url]
[quote]According to Ed Rensi, formerly of McDonald’s, a higher minimum wage would not only kill existing jobs but also result in closing a substantial number of small businesses, from 15-20%. In theory, raising the minimum wage forces business owners to raise the prices of their goods or services, thereby spurring inflation. In actual practice, however, it is not so simple since wages are only one part of the cost of a product or service paid for by consumers. A higher minimum wage can be offset by heightened productivity by workers or trimming down a company’s manpower.
In 2014, fast-food workers in the United States were asking for a minimum wage of $15 an hour, or almost double what they were earning. Had their demand been granted, a typical burger flipper or order taker at McDonald’s would have ended up earning more than $30,000 per annum. Suffice it to say, raising the minimum wage to an excessively high rate would exert inflationary pressure on the economy, but increasing it to keep pace with inflation would only have a minimal effect.[/quote]
Job loss aside,
[url]http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2016/04/minimum-wages[/url]
[quote]Economists have been grappling for decades with whether (and by how much) a higher minimum wage affects employment. A paper by David Neumark of the University of California (on the very useful IZA World of Labor's website) summarizes the literature. Most studies show there is an impact with a 10% rise in the minimum wage causing around a 2% drop in employment for affected workers (normally the young and low-skilled). This is not the same as saying that overall employment will fall by the same amount.
The paper also shows that a higher minimum wage may not be as effective in tackling poverty as many hope. Low-wage workers don't all belong to low-income families. Mr Neumark notes that, in 2008[/quote]
[editline]s[/editline]
[QUOTE=geel9;50056061]First of all, a business that is only viable because it underpays its employees is not a viable business, nor should it be.
Second, your final argument is that "minimum wage should rise up but it shouldn't be [b]too high[/b]" yet the argument you made before that is "we shouldn't raise minimum wage because of these made up numbers." Why is [b]$15 an hour[/b] too high, and what would you propose it be raised to instead?
Finally, assuming that product prices will rise in relation to minimum wage increase, [b]prove that the relative increase in cost of living will equal or surpass the relative increase in wages.[/b][/QUOTE]
15 dollars an hour is too high because it has been proven in other areas (Seattle) to tank employment in industry that typically employs minimum wage folks. Minimum wage should be raised to reflect inflation, or else it will cause inflation of its own.
I've provided sources, and the argument is to increase the wage, so the burden of proof is on you that this will actually improve things.
[QUOTE=phygon;50055919]Math[/QUOTE]
[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Funnel_Graph_of_Estimated_Minimum_Wage_Effects.jpg[/img]
Good thing it's proven that Minimum wage increases have no effect on employment! You know, by economists, people who understand economics?
[quote]A 2013 Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) review of multiple studies since 2000 indicated that there was "little or no employment response to modest increases in the minimum wage." The study indicated 11 reasons for this finding, the most important including: "reductions in labor turnover; improvements in organizational efficiency; reductions in wages of higher earners ('wage compression'); and small price increases."[38] Another CEPR study in 2014 found that job creation within the United States is faster within states that raised their minimum wage.[39] In 2014, the state with the highest minimum wage in the nation, Washington, exceeded the national average for job growth in the United States.[40][/quote]
Your quaint little example with wacky numbers forgets that there is a thing called inflation, and prices already rise with it.
Really, our minimum wage SHOULD be indexed with inflation already because of this stupid song and dance that happens every time.
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;50056175][img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/Funnel_Graph_of_Estimated_Minimum_Wage_Effects.jpg[/img]
Good thing it's proven that Minimum wage increases have no effect on employment! You know, by economists, people who understand economics?
[B]Your quaint little example with wacky numbers forgets that there is a thing called inflation, and prices already rise with it. [/B]
Really, our minimum wage SHOULD be indexed with inflation already because of this stupid song and dance that happens every time.[/QUOTE]
If you read my other post you'd know that I support raising minimum wage to reflect inflation, and there is no need to be a dick. I've posted a few examples that support the idea that a 15 dollar minimum wage is too high, which is supported by many economists. How about you post something that argues against that instead of posting contextless images from wikipedia and trying to downplay the argument? My example was [I]not meant to exactly reflect reality[/I], I explicitly stated that in the post. I was explaining the math behind why raising minimum wage may raise cost of production beyond the point where employers would employ as many as they do.
Get off that high horse, dude.
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