Human Rights Watch: Widespread Use of Cluster Munitions by Ukraine
71 replies, posted
[t]http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/media/images/photographs/2014ERG_Ukraine_Clusters.JPG[/t]
[quote](Berlin) – Ukrainian government forces used cluster munitions in populated areas in Donetsk city in early October 2014, Human Rights Watch said today. The use of cluster munitions in populated areas violates the laws of war due to the indiscriminate nature of the weapon and may amount to war crimes.
During a week-long investigation in eastern Ukraine, Human Rights Watch documented widespread use of cluster munitions in fighting between government forces and pro-Russian rebels in more than a dozen urban and rural locations. While it was not possible to conclusively determine responsibility for many of the attacks, the evidence points to Ukrainian government forces’ responsibility for several cluster munition attacks on Donetsk. An employee of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was killed on October 2 in an attack on Donetsk that included use of cluster munition rockets.
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Source: [url]http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/10/20/ukraine-widespread-use-cluster-munitions[/url]
Cluster bombs are fucked up as all hell, not cool Ukraine
I'm not sure it counts as a warcrime as I doubt Ukraine has signed any conventions relating to cluster munitions.
Nothing new, cluster bombs, white phos and ballistic missiles have been widely used by Ukraine during the fight for Donetsk airport.
[QUOTE=laserguided;46291767]Nothing new, cluster bombs, white phos and ballistic missiles have been widely used by Ukraine during the fight for Donetsk airport.[/QUOTE]
There were no further proof of latter, except some shitty quality videos, and little bit of interviews.
Jokes on them, its not a war because Russia said so, either way nobody is probably going to care on either side, they've both violated war law by shelling civilians
[QUOTE=Sableye;46293180]Jokes on them, its not a war because Russia said so, either way nobody is probably going to care on either side, they've both violated war law by shelling civilians[/QUOTE]
Yeah but so far Russia has been firmly and decisively the biggest dick and worldwide support is massively on the side of Ukraine, if they start committing war crimes all over the place that'll end pretty quickly
[QUOTE=laserguided;46291767]Nothing new, cluster bombs, white phos and ballistic missiles have been widely used by Ukraine during the fight for Donetsk airport.[/QUOTE]
Ballistic missiles?
[QUOTE=Elspin;46293726]Yeah but so far Russia has been firmly and decisively the biggest dick and worldwide support is massively on the side of Ukraine, if they start committing war crimes all over the place that'll end pretty quickly[/QUOTE]
I doubt it. When did morality influence this. The US/NATO is supporting Kiev because it is politically advantageous to do so.
Probably a stupid question, but what exactly does cluster munitions do?
And in either case, sounds like a really fucked up things to use. God dammit, Ukraine!
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;46294664]Probably a stupid question, but what exactly does cluster munitions do?
And in either case, sounds like a really fucked up things to use. God dammit, Ukraine![/QUOTE]
I looked it up on Wikipedia and found this.
[img]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/ba/Molotov_bread_basket.jpg[/img]
Behold, the "Molotov Bread Basket".
:v:
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;46294664]Probably a stupid question, but what exactly does cluster munitions do?
And in either case, sounds like a really fucked up things to use. God dammit, Ukraine![/QUOTE]
A bomb which blows up into smaller bombs which detonate afterwards, covering a large area, thus the indiscriminate . Use it in an urban centre and you blow up most of the block rather than 2 buildings
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;46294664]Probably a stupid question, but what exactly does cluster munitions do?
And in either case, sounds like a really fucked up things to use. God dammit, Ukraine![/QUOTE]Dozens and dozens of little bomblets spray out of it's casing and blow the shit out of an area. Good for getting rid of people in a wide area, but the main reasons they're banned is that you generally end up with loads of unexploded ordnance that e.g. years later takes the legs off some unfortunate kid who doesn't recognize what it is; and using them in populated areas is about as indiscriminate as you can get, just below dousing the place in napalm.
[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;46294664]Probably a stupid question, but what exactly does cluster munitions do?
And in either case, sounds like a really fucked up things to use. God dammit, Ukraine![/QUOTE]
They pop open into dozens of little bomblets that spread over a wide area. Additionally there can be some that fail to detonate, so you end up with live munitions buried in the ground for years until some unlucky person accidentally finds it and is maimed or killed.
[QUOTE=DrAkcel;46291996]There were no further proof of latter, except some shitty quality videos, and little bit of interviews.[/QUOTE]
White phosphorous is a common smoke generator, so it is almost guaranteed it was used. Ballistic missiles also includes missile artillery which is quite common, and a common delivery mechanism of cluster munitions.
Official statement : UA does not use cluster bombs
They shouldn't fire Tochka-U at civilian areas in my opinion.
These are not Ukrainian cluster bombs. Anyone can buy those bombs at a cluster bomb store.
Amazing how cool everyone with this info.
Where is witty "Fuck Poroshenko" and other crap?
International organisation posts report of forbidden weaponry, everyone is calm, and just passes by.
I am sorry if this sounds a bit emotional but knowing this girl from Donetsk i mentioned previously and seeing lack of "usual hysteria" regarding something that should raise some questions for Ukranian military's actions, such reaction pisses me off.
And Fuck Official Ukranian Goverment statements, their previous Minister of defense claimed Donetsk airport was hit with [B]nuclear[/B] strikes.
I must say I am pleasantly surprised by how well this story is being covered: I've found articles in the BBC, Guardian, New York Times, Daily Mail, Foreign Policy...
Maybe Western media isn't quite as controlled and manipulated as I thought...
Also: funny how the Ukrainian military would use cluster bombs which cause such a high amount of civilian casualties against towns full of the ethnic Russians they claim have nothing to fear from them.
It's almost like the Ukrainian Government is full of shit and really do have designs on killing Ethnic Russians... hmm...
it's funny how pro-ukranians seem to be conspicuously absent on threads where ukraine is doing the bad, huh?
or maybe because, with exception to a couple dozen, FP isn't fucking filled with experts on cluster bombs
[editline]22nd October 2014[/editline]
Or even military equipment for that matter
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305168]or maybe because, with exception to a couple dozen, FP isn't fucking filled with experts on cluster bombs
[editline]22nd October 2014[/editline]
Or even military equipment for that matter[/QUOTE]
it's not about being experts.
If headline was "Human Rights Watch: Widespread Use of cluster munitions by rebels" you'd see alot more outrage.
It's just that somewhere in subconciousness of people, info regarding this conflcit goes like this -
"Ukrainian military is good, they can't do something bad. They fight for the good guys and have excuse for everything.
Rebels are bad, bad bad anyway bad, and Russia is even worse, don't question me, your sources are always propaganda you brainwashed stub."
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46305281]it's not about being experts.
If headline was "Human Rights Watch: Widespread Use of cluster munitions by rebels" you'd see alot more outrage.[/QUOTE]
good thing that's an assumption and good thing the rebels aren't doing such a thing despite me not knowing what cluster bombs are??
[editline]22nd October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46305281]"Ukrainian military is good, they can't do something bad. They fight for the good guys and have excuse for everything.
Rebels are bad, bad bad anyway bad, and Russia is even worse, don't question me, your sources are always propaganda you brainwashed stub."[/QUOTE]
Good thing atleast I and some people already went through this and mdeicever79 made a fucking genius post about it that summarized everything and made me stop being a shithead with people again
[editline]22nd October 2014[/editline]
and unless I'm blind, you're the only one who keeps bringing that up, it's not even effective or contributes to anything
[quote] Human Rights Watch: Widespread Use of cluster munitions by rebels [/quote]
[url]https://twitter.com/OnlineMagazin/status/524868170109427712[/url]
[url]https://twitter.com/tuumapomm/status/524610480783245313[/url]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305333]good thing that's an assumption and good thing the rebels aren't doing such a thing despite me not knowing what cluster bombs are??
[editline]22nd October 2014[/editline]
Good thing atleast I and some people already went through this and mdeicever79 made a fucking genius post about it that summarized everything and made me stop being a shithead with people again
[editline]22nd October 2014[/editline]
and unless I'm blind, you're the only one who keeps bringing that up, it's not even effective or contributes to anything[/QUOTE]
Like i posted previosly, yeah i can be a bit emotional, but the next quote is jsut adding up.
[QUOTE=herp_derp;46305404][url]https://twitter.com/OnlineMagazin/status/524868170109427712[/url]
[url]https://twitter.com/tuumapomm/status/524610480783245313[/url][/QUOTE]
Great, a twitter with a single image and caption claiming that thsoe clusterbombs are from Russia and never were produced in ukraine prior.
That is alot of responsibility for a headline and i am sure some person on twiter sure know alot more about where and how clsuter munitions are being produced then entire Human Rights organisation.
See? Suddenly we do have expert in munitions.
On twitter.
On the other hand, after second link he provides and amout of his total posts i don't think this person can be considered serious.
I am sorry for that.
[QUOTE=karimatrix;46305452]Great, a twitter with a single image and caption claiming that thsoe clusterbombs are from Russia and never were produced in ukraine prior.
That is alot of responsibility for a headline and i am sure some person on twiter sure know alot more about where and how clsuter munitions are being produced then entire Human Rights organisation.
See? Suddenly we do have expert in munitions.
On twitter.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, you've also posted Twitter stuff and always mention "your friends" and what they say is happening there.
No one can trust anyone because both sides are shit.
[quote]Ukraine received last cluster munitions in 1991, staying back in the USSR. In this use, the Donbas Rockets had markings that indicated that the munitions were made June 16, 2003.[/quote]
[url]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3ba_1413979341[/url]
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;46305472]To be fair, you've also posted Twitter stuff and always mention "your friends" and what they say is happening there.
No one can trust anyone because both sides are shit.[/QUOTE]
In this case the claims have been made by a credible human rights organization and have enough merit to be reported on by mainstream news media.
[QUOTE=WhollyRufus;46305555]In this case the claims have been made by a credible human rights organization and have enough merit to be reported on by mainstream news media.[/QUOTE]
but rebels can also sabotage and leave misleading evidence, same thing ukraine has done before right?
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