[video=youtube;1T0GcHM0s4o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0GcHM0s4o[/video]
Here's the description, somehow people manage to miss it.
[QUOTE]Many people, when confronted with the fact that -their choice of behavior modulates their chances of being raped- take the very simplistic, and unhelpful line that 'its solely the criminals fault'. While in the eyes of the law this is true, it glosses over the fact that your choice of behavior modulates your chances of becoming a victim. For instance, putting locks on your door reduces your chances of being burgled. Not being alone reduces your chances of being mugged and so on. However frequently when you suggest that peoples actions can reduce their chances of being raped, many people, (notably feminists) view this very differently. They accuse you of supporting rape culture and blaming the victim. Curiously though these people do not suggest that putting locks on your doors is supporting thief culture and blaming the victim.
The bottom line there are almost always things you can do to minimize your chances of ending up in a dangerous situation. Advising women that this is not true simply increases their chances of being raped.[/QUOTE]
excellent video, really hit the nail on the head!
[editline]yes[/editline]
thunderf00t yet again delivers quality, thought-provoking analysis
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310010]
thunderf00t yet again delivers quality, thought-provoking analysis[/QUOTE]
For some reason I thought you would hate him for his positions on Atheism+ and feminism.
thunderf00t just takes current hot issues and scrambles them around for a predictable audience. This video is stupid.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42310051]For some reason I thought you would hate him for his positions on Atheism+ and feminism.[/QUOTE]
lol
He's being sarcastic.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42310051]For some reason I thought you would hate him for his positions on Atheism+ and feminism.[/QUOTE]
Well you can't refute such undeniable logic, of course!
It's obvious that teaching people not to do bad things is waste of time because, surprise, people will do those things anyway! We should simply stop caring about it, that'll fix the problem. In fact, let's get rid of all preventive measures against crime or misconduct, it's no use. At all.
Man, every time one of these topics comes up, a shitstorm is inevitable.
[QUOTE=Clovernoodle;42310073]Man, every time one of these topics comes up, a shitstorm is inevitable.[/QUOTE]
Everything is fine so far, don't give people ideas.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42310093]Everything is fine so far, don't give people ideas.[/QUOTE]
You would think it's fine, but Gestapo's already shitposting.
This thread can only go one way.
3 minutes after video was posted
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310010]excellent video, really hit the nail on the head!
[editline]yes[/editline]
thunderf00t yet again delivers quality, thought-provoking analysis[/QUOTE]
9 minutes after video was posted
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310069]Well you can't refute such undeniable logic, of course!
It's obvious that teaching people not to do bad things is waste of time because, surprise, people will do those things anyway! We should simply stop caring about it, that'll fix the problem. In fact, let's get rid of all preventive measures against crime or misconduct, it's no use. At all.[/QUOTE]
the video is 18 minutes long
I think you guys who are being sarcastic are sort of missing the point of the video.
[QUOTE=Wingz;42310191]3 minutes after video was posted
9 minutes after video was posted
Well, you're taking a lot of assumptions out, he could have already watched the video before...
Kinda black and white, don't you think?
the video is 18 minutes long[/QUOTE]
i agree with a number of things in this video
i don't really think it's victim blaming to say women can take action besides protesting to reduce their chances of being raped. i'm not saying rapes should happen or that they deserve it for wearing certain clothes, but there will always be bad people out there, and if you make yourself a target you increase your chances of it happening to you. nobody deserves it, it's a heinous crime, but wearing scanty clothing certainly paints you as a target and increases your chances.
i honestly don't see how that's wrong or offensive to assert, it seems quite logical actually.
the robbery analogy is a good one. if you make your way through a bad, crime ridden neighborhood wearing expensive clothing with expensive items, flashing your money, etc., you paint yourself as a wealthy target, and further entice people who may not even have robbed you in the first place to do so. it doesn't mean you deserve it simply for doing those things, nobody deserves to be robbed, but you've certainly increased your chances when it was a mostly preventable situation.
[editline]26th September 2013[/editline]
i should point out, just to make it perfectly clear, that i [I]do not think rape is right in any circumstance, nor do i think anybody deserves it[/I]
i simply think there are things which can more effectively prevent it other than protest and stubbornness
[editline]26th September 2013[/editline]
and protest isn't a bad thing either, it increases awareness and makes the prevalence of such crimes more known, bringing attention to the matter. perhaps, however, it is not the most effective preventative action
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42310218]Well, you're taking a lot of assumptions out, he could have already watched the video before...
Kinda black and white, don't you think?[/QUOTE]
I seriously doubt that since he clearly missed the point of the video
[editline][/editline]
[quote]Well you can't refute such undeniable logic, of course!
It's obvious that teaching people not to do bad things is waste of time because, surprise, people will do those things anyway! We should simply stop caring about it, that'll fix the problem. In fact, let's get rid of all preventive measures against crime or misconduct, it's no use. At all.[/quote]
You'd only get that interpretation of the video if you watched like only the first two minutes. you can just read the description and understand his actual point.
[QUOTE=katbug;42310183]You would think it's fine, but Gestapo's already shitposting.
This thread can only go one way.[/QUOTE]
Rude, much?
Look, I watched about 8 minutes of the video and Thunderf00t's argument was already ripe with logical fallacies and misconstructions. I'm not gonna bother watching the rest when it's already obvious that he just wants to give his audience what they want to hear! The thumbnail alone is a massive strawman that should be enough warning that the video isn't worth your time.
Teaching men not to rape isn't controversial at all. It's not sexist. It's the logical thing to do! Rape is a serious problem, let's do the smart thing and approach it's root: the absolutely awful excuse for sexual education boys and girls receive. We need to teach them the concept of rape, of consent, what have you. Instead of just treating the symptoms of a disease, why not prevent it from ever occurring?
Granted. It will not stop rape, but it would massively decrease it's occurrence! Which is a concept that Thunderfoot, in his emotionally driven "arguments" cannot seem to grasp. All he's doing is distracting the debate from the topics that are actually relevant and feeding his viewers useless fluff that doesn't help anyone.
The question shouldn't be whether we should teach people not to rape, it should be how we should go about doing that in a sensible manner.
But whatever! If what I have to say is so offensive and unreasonable then I will say no more. But I'm hardly the only one with this opinion.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310394]Rude, much?
Look, I watched about 8 minutes of the video and Thunderf00t's argument was already ripe with logical fallacies and misconstructions. I'm not gonna bother watching the rest when it's already obvious that he just wants to give his audience what they want to hear! The thumbnail alone is a massive strawman that should be enough warning that the video isn't worth your time.
Teaching men not to rape isn't controversial at all. It's not sexist. It's the logical thing to do! Rape is a serious problem, let's do the smart thing and approach it's root: the absolutely awful excuse for sexual education boys and girls receive. We need to teach them the concept of rape, of consent, what have you. Instead of just treating the symptoms of a disease, why not prevent it from ever occurring?
Granted. It will not stop rape, but it would massively decrease it's occurrence! Which is a concept that Thunderfoot, in his emotionally driven "arguments" cannot seem to grasp. All he's doing is distracting the debate from the topics that are actually relevant and feeding his viewers useless fluff that doesn't help anyone.
But whatever! Don't mind me. I'm sure Thundefoot here all the answers in this topic on which is [I]very well versed in![/I][/QUOTE]
You obviously didn't watch the video. Also, you have no idea what a straw man is.
Teaching people to not commit crime is stupid, and nobody said it was sexist (infact, you saying that IS a straw man). Not committing crimes is generally extremely ingrained in culture, especially hard crimes like rape.
Men don't commit rape because they're confused about sexuality. They commit rape because they are either mentally ill, fufilling some awful fantasy, or simply oblivious to the fact that they are, in fact, raping.
Watch the video and then come back when you have a rational response to the [u]entire[/u] thing. Or at least point out specifics from the video which you disagree with. Point out misconstrusions. Point out the Fallacies. Make a reasonable and comprehensive argument or just leave.
Edit:
Also, by definition you were shitposting. So no, not rude.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310394]Rude, much?
Look, I watched about 8 minutes of the video and Thunderf00t's argument was already ripe with logical fallacies and misconstructions. I'm not gonna bother watching the rest when it's already obvious that he just wants to give his audience what they want to hear! The thumbnail alone is a massive strawman that should be enough warning that the video isn't worth your time.
Teaching men not to rape isn't controversial at all. It's not sexist. It's the logical thing to do! Rape is a serious problem, let's do the smart thing and approach it's root: the absolutely awful excuse for sexual education boys and girls receive. We need to teach them the concept of rape, of consent, what have you. Instead of just treating the symptoms of a disease, why not prevent it from ever occurring?
Granted. It will not stop rape, but it would massively decrease it's occurrence! Which is a concept that Thunderfoot, in his emotionally driven "arguments" cannot seem to grasp. All he's doing is distracting the debate from the topics that are actually relevant and feeding his viewers useless fluff that doesn't help anyone.
But whatever! Don't mind me. I'm sure Thundefoot here all the answers in this topic on which is [I]very well versed in![/I]
The question shouldn't be whether we should teach people not to rape, it should be how we should go about doing that in a sensible manner.[/QUOTE]
the problem with this is that, at least i, for one, can vouch for having received education at one point or another on what constitutes rape and that it is BAD. i am having trouble believing that, in locations with education that could at least be considered on par, that children and young adults are not being taught what constitutes right and wrong sexual behavior when i, myself, and those whom i know, have been educated on the matter. granted, this is merely anecdotal evidence, and some may disagree, but that's just my two cents.
anyway, i don't think anybody is arguing that sexual education is a bad thing, because it's certainly not. if you can put a significant effort into teaching children and young adults what constitutes rape and that it is indeed wrong, you can certainly add influence to its prevention. however, the point of the guy in OP's video is that this is sometimes [B]not enough[/B]. you can't just teach children that rape is bad and that they shouldn't do it, because even though it is a good thing to do so, and even though that certainly would work to prevent it to a degree, it would never prevent it from occurring entirely. so do you just give up there? no! you find other ways to prevent it, such as, i don't know, encouraging women to wear less enticing clothing. is it morally wrong that some men are enticed by a woman's innocent choice in clothing? perhaps some would argue that it is. right or wrong, however, it will happen [B]no matter what[/B]. so, he argues, it is a good idea to try to prevent that enticing factor, it is best not to make one's self a target, and it is best to decrease all factors which could cause a rape as much as possible. because no matter how much education there is, the world will never be rape-free, and crime will always exist. so actions need to be taken beyond JUST education.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310394]Rude, much?
Look, I watched about 8 minutes of the video and Thunderf00t's argument was already ripe with logical fallacies and misconstructions. I'm not gonna bother watching the rest when it's already obvious that he just wants to give his audience what they want to hear! The thumbnail alone is a massive strawman that should be enough warning that the video isn't worth your time.
Teaching men not to rape isn't controversial at all. It's not sexist. It's the logical thing to do! Rape is a serious problem, let's do the smart thing and approach it's root: the absolutely awful excuse for sexual education boys and girls receive. We need to teach them the concept of rape, of consent, what have you. Instead of just treating the symptoms of a disease, why not prevent it from ever occurring?
Granted. It will not stop rape, but it would massively decrease it's occurrence! Which is a concept that Thunderfoot, in his emotionally driven "arguments" cannot seem to grasp. All he's doing is distracting the debate from the topics that are actually relevant and feeding his viewers useless fluff that doesn't help anyone.
The question shouldn't be whether we should teach people not to rape, it should be how we should go about doing that in a sensible manner.
But whatever! If what I have to say is so offensive and unreasonable then I will say no more. But I'm hardly the only one with this opinion.[/QUOTE]
So you didn't even reach half of the video and you think you already understand what Thunderf00t is saying in the entire video and you get his main points. Clearly not.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310394]Rude, much?
Look, I watched about 8 minutes of the video and Thunderf00t's argument was already ripe with logical fallacies and misconstructions. I'm not gonna bother watching the rest when it's already obvious that he just wants to give his audience what they want to hear! The thumbnail alone is a massive strawman that should be enough warning that the video isn't worth your time.
Teaching men not to rape isn't controversial at all. It's not sexist. It's the logical thing to do! Rape is a serious problem, let's do the smart thing and approach it's root: the absolutely awful excuse for sexual education boys and girls receive. We need to teach them the concept of rape, of consent, what have you. Instead of just treating the symptoms of a disease, why not prevent it from ever occurring?
Granted. It will not stop rape, but it would massively decrease it's occurrence! Which is a concept that Thunderfoot, in his emotionally driven "arguments" cannot seem to grasp. All he's doing is distracting the debate from the topics that are actually relevant and feeding his viewers useless fluff that doesn't help anyone.
The question shouldn't be whether we should teach people not to rape, it should be how we should go about doing that in a sensible manner.
But whatever! If what I have to say is so offensive and unreasonable then I will say no more. But I'm hardly the only one with this opinion.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit you really are a nutter.
How the fuck do you get the idea we need to teach people rape is bad? I don't know about you, but I'd bet a lot of money that you can go to any fucking school on this planet and if you ask any person there 'is rape okay' they'd say no.
[QUOTE=katbug;42310441]You obviously didn't watch the video. Also, you have no idea what a straw man is.
Teaching people to not commit crime is stupid, and nobody said it was sexist (infact, you saying that IS a straw man).
Men don't commit rape because they're confused about sexuality. They commit rape because they are either mentally ill, fufilling some awful fantasy, or simply oblivious to the fact that they are, in fact, raping.
Watch the video and then come back when you have a rational response to the [u]entire[/u] thing. Or at least point out specifics from the video which you disagree with. Point out misconstrusions. Point out the Fallacies. Make a reasonable and comprehensive argument or just leave.[/QUOTE]
I said I didn't watch the whole video and I already said why. The whole video is a strawman. He just took the "teach men not to rape" argument and twisted into something he could easily refute. That's a strawman. I don't need to point out every single thing he got wrong when the main flippin' argument is nonsense.
Teaching people not to commit crimes is stupid? Are you for real? It's bloody essential to have a functioning society. Do you even understand what you're saying?
Stealing. It's bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Assault. Bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Murder. Horrible thing. We teach kids not to do it.
Rape is bad, but some reason we don't tell kids not to do it, or in fact discuss it at all.
The list goes on.
The crowds of angry MRAs would beg to differ on the sexist comment, but alright, I'll give you that one.
The psychology of rapist is simple. It's about power. Yes. Agreed. But not all rape takes the form of forceful sexual intercourse. We have marital rape, statutory rape, date rape, etc. Those are the type of thing that could easily be avoided if we just gave kids a proper education regarding those topics. And we don't.
That's literally all I'm saying and I didn't need to ramble on unrelated fluff for twenty minutes.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310507]I said I didn't watch the whole video and I already said why. The whole video is a strawman. He just took the "teach men not to rape" argument and twisted into something he could easily refute. That's a strawman. I don't need to point out every single thing he got wrong when the main flippin' argument is nonsense.
Teaching people not to commit crimes is stupid? Are you for real? It's bloody essential to have a functioning society. Do you even understand what you're saying?
Stealing. It's bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Assault. Bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Murder. Horrible thing. We teach kids not to do it.
Rape is bad, but some reason we don't tell kids not to do it, or in fact discuss it at all.[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
Where on fucking Earth do you think kids support rape? Go to your local high school, please do, and take a poll on how many people 'approve' of rape. I will gargle my own shit if you get anything other than 0.
[QUOTE]Teaching men not to rape isn't controversial at all. It's not sexist. It's the logical thing to do! Rape is a serious problem, let's do the smart thing and approach it's root: the absolutely awful excuse for sexual education boys and girls receive. We need to teach them the concept of rape, of consent, what have you. Instead of just treating the symptoms of a disease, why not prevent it from ever occurring?[/QUOTE]
Everybody knows that rape is bad. Rapists are assholes who don't give a shit about right and wrong. Some people are just like that.
I actually kind of agree in a sense. People need to stop raising assholes.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310507]
Rape is bad, [B]but some reason we don't tell kids not to do it, or in fact discuss it at all.[/B]
[/QUOTE]
the problem with this is that it's complete bullshit and flat out not true
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310507]I said I didn't watch the whole video and I already said why. The whole video is a strawman. He just took the "teach men not to rape" argument and twisted into something he could easily refute. That's a strawman. I don't need to point out every single thing he got wrong when the main flippin' argument is nonsense.
Teaching people not to commit crimes is stupid? Are you for real? It's bloody essential to have a functioning society. Do you even understand what you're saying?
Stealing. It's bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Assault. Bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Murder. Horrible thing. We teach kids not to do it.
Rape is bad, but some reason we don't tell kids not to do it, or in fact discuss it at all.
The list goes on.
The crowds of angry MRAs would beg to differ on the sexist comment, but alright, I'll give you that one.
The psychology of rapist is simple. It's about power. Yes. Agreed. But not all rape takes the form of forceful sexual intercourse. We have marital rape, statutory rape, date rape, etc. Those are the type of thing that could easily be avoided if we just gave kids a proper education regarding those topics. And we don't.
That's literally all I'm saying and I didn't need to ramble on unrelated fluff for twenty minutes.[/QUOTE]
You really didn't watch more than two minutes of the video, did you
And in what fucking world does education about crime stop it? It IS fucking taught. It's INGRAINED COMPLETELY in our society. We are taught from preschool 'til death that crime is bad, from parents to school to the news, and have a justice system hanging over our heads as well, and crime still happens.
Do you lock your doors at night? Why? Crime is illegal. You should be perfectly safe. Go walk around with all your cash in an acrylic suitcase, and tell me how much the law or rules protect you.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310507]I said I didn't watch the whole video and I already said why. The whole video is a strawman. He just took the "teach men not to rape" argument and twisted into something he could easily refute. That's a strawman. I don't need to point out every single thing he got wrong when the main flippin' argument is nonsense.
Teaching people not to commit crimes is stupid? Are you for real? It's bloody essential to have a functioning society. Do you even understand what you're saying?
Stealing. It's bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Assault. Bad. We teach kids not to do it.
Murder. Horrible thing. We teach kids not to do it.
Rape is bad, but some reason we don't tell kids not to do it, or in fact discuss it at all.
The list goes on.
The crowds of angry MRAs would beg to differ on the sexist comment, but alright, I'll give you that one.
The psychology of rapist is simple. It's about power. Yes. Agreed. But not all rape takes the form of forceful sexual intercourse. We have marital rape, statutory rape, date rape, etc. Those are the type of thing that could easily be avoided if we just gave kids a proper education regarding those topics. And we don't.
That's literally all I'm saying and I didn't need to ramble on unrelated fluff for twenty minutes.[/QUOTE]
Did you bother reading the video's description? That may shed some light on why what you're saying makes little sense in relation to the video
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42310519]Everybody knows that rape is bad. Rapists are assholes who don't give a shit about right and wrong. Some people are just like that.
I actually kind of agree in a sense. People need to stop raising assholes.[/QUOTE]
education will not stop sociopaths from being sociopaths. raise them however you like, i guarantee that will have very little effect on their tendency to commit crimes
How to spot someone who doesn't watch the video? Don't worry, they'll let you know
[QUOTE=OrkO;42310563]education will not stop sociopaths from being sociopaths. raise them however you like, i guarantee that will have very little effect on their tendency to commit crimes[/QUOTE]
I think you're underestimating how Important good child raising is.
Im just saying,, but if we taught People to not kill, then they wouldnt!! YOu guys use strawman fallacies to make people believe Lies but I dont need a video filled with FLUFF to show you all that if you taught that Murder is wrong (WHICH IT ISNT!) then murderers would stop! God!!
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42310644]I think you're underestimating how Important good child raising is.[/QUOTE]
well, yes, it may be true that very poor child raising can [I]create[/I] sociopaths, but poor child raising and sociopathy are not mutually inclusive
the best parents in the world could still raise a sociopath.
that being said, i really am doubting that the majority of rapes are caused by poor child rearing
[editline]26th September 2013[/editline]
i also doubt that they are caused, at least in developed, first-world countries, by lack of education (especially in areas, obviously, where good education is prevalent)
though, then again, perhaps they are. i don't really have any data to back up any of these claims at all.
[QUOTE=OrkO;42310535]the problem with this is that it's complete bullshit and flat out not true[/QUOTE]
Yeah people are told rape is bad but we're only taught that about violent rape, which is generally frowned upon by society anyways. But not once has a teacher ever lectured me on the concept of consent. Not once was I told in Health class that having sex with someone who is drunk while you aren't drunk is rape. They just use the phrase "taking advantage of" to sugar coat it, but it's not like they even gave us a good lecture about it anyways. Mostly just crazy people violently rape others, and that's frowned upon by society just like theft and cold-blooded murder, but the concept of consent isn't discussed nearly as much as it should be.
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