Do You Believe in 'Life after Death'? - General

I am here today to discuss the largely debated, discussed and acknowledged 'Life after Death' topic. Once upon a morrow, I was browsing a forum. I saw a thread about death and such, and a smart guy came around. Not me of course. He explains that once you die, since energy and matter can not be created nor destroyed, you will never consciously die. [I][U]This can be for religious people, but really..religious people will disagree with this.[/U][/I] Any who, he said that when you die, the energy inside of you would detach from the nerves, body, the brain would give out. You however will be 'lifted' from your body, and become a [I]Ghost[/I]. [QUOTE]It is widely claimed that Albert Einstein suggested a scientific basis for the reality of ghosts; if energy cannot be created or destroyed but only change form, what happens to our body's energy when we die? Could that somehow be manifested as a ghost?[/QUOTE] Exactly stating what the guy from the forum suggested, however he put it in a form that was realistic-er than what I had said. I will now give you a series of ripped quotes from website(s) that I will in turn give you the link to. [URL]http://961wodz.com/scientific-evidence-that-proves-ghosts-are-really-real/[/URL] [QUOTE]Energy can’t be created or destroyed; it can only change forms — that’s a law of physics. Not a theory of physics — a law. It’s called the law of conservation of energy. It means that if you take an isolated system, such as a person, the energy contained in that person can’t be destroyed. It can change forms from chemical energy — like the signals that travel down your nerve pathways — into kinetic energy, the energy required to move your arm, for example, but the energy is always there. This law makes sense to me. It means that when we die, our energy must go somewhere. The flesh and bones — the empty vessel — is left behind, but the energy survives.[/QUOTE] -Nick Groff, Ghost Adventures- [QUOTE]The ghost experience isn’t just seeing an apparition. People can sense ghosts, like the way you can tell when someone walks into the room behind you. People can smell ghosts — I can’t tell you how many times witnesses have reported smelling perfume or a cigar when no source can be found. Smell is closely related to memory, so that scent may call up something specific in the case of a deceased loved one. People hear ghosts — sometimes we hear disembodied voices in a location. And then, of course, there’s actually seeing something. The ghost experience involves our senses. There’s no way around it. So if spirits are energy, and if we need our senses to experience them, then we have a lot of equipment available that can be adapted to help us validate what we’re experiencing in a haunted location.[/QUOTE] You can re-read the website article if you wish, but the given quotes are what 'matter'. This made me believe in life after death, or becoming a spirit. oh and guys meet me at new york when we all die thx

I believe in some sort of realm between Heaven, Hell, and the physical universe. A sort of place where we go when we refuse to die. Whether by sheer hubris, or a task unforgotten. Also, a sort of residual energy sort of thing could make sense.

I don't believe in life after death. I hope for something along the lines of reincarnation but I don't believe it will happen.

[QUOTE=WrathOfMe;42320852]He explains that once you die, since energy and matter can not be created nor destroyed, you will never consciously die.[/QUOTE] Except that consciousness is not simply a bunch of energy. It's the product of the brain's processes. Once the chemical and electrical paths in the brain stop functioning, you no longer have consciousness.

Misread title [video=youtube;5Uu3kCEEc98]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Uu3kCEEc98[/video] But seeing as matter can't be destroyed or something, I hope I become a rock or some real hot chick. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("this is not debating" - Megafan))[/highlight]

No I don't believe in life after death mainly due to the lack of evidence for there being life after death. However I can't dismiss the possibility of there being ANYTHING.

[QUOTE=WrathOfMe;42320852]He explains that once you die, since energy and matter can not be created nor destroyed, you will never consciously die.[/quote] This isn't exactly how it works. The energy/matter is consumed by microbes, converted into gases, decomposes, etc. What exactly is this "energy" that leaves the body, and where does it go? What type of energy is it? Can I measure it? [quote]Any who, he said that when you die, the energy inside of you would detach from the nerves, body, the brain would give out. You however will be 'lifted' from your body, and become a [I]Ghost[/I]. Prove it. [quote][URL]http://961wodz.com/scientific-evidence-that-proves-ghosts-are-really-real/[/URL][/QUOTE] [quote]Energy can’t be created or destroyed; it can only change forms  that’s a law of physics. Not a theory of physics — a law. It’s called the law of conservation of energy. It means that if you take an isolated system, such as a person, the energy contained in that person can’t be destroyed. It can change forms from chemical energy — like the signals that travel down your nerve pathways — into kinetic energy, the energy required to move your arm, for example, but the energy is always there. This law makes sense to me. It means that when we die, our energy must go somewhere. The flesh and bones — the empty vessel — is left behind, but the energy survives.[/quote] The energy remains in the body initially. It will dissipate gradually as heat energy in all directions out into space. It will be consumed by microbes and converted into gases and new microbes. Also when this energy moves out of your body, how does it interact with each other to produce sentient thought? Can I measure this energy and record it? Does it respond to stimuli? [quote]The ghost experience isn’t just seeing an apparition.[/quote] It's seeing things that aren't there. [quote]People can sense ghosts, like the way you can tell when someone walks into the room behind you.[/quote] That's because you can hear them, or have otherwise made their presence known because you heard or saw them moving. The floor creaking or a door moving and moving air around can also do this. [quote]People can smell ghosts — I can’t tell you how many times witnesses have reported smelling perfume or a cigar when no source can be found. Smell is closely related to memory, so that scent may call up something specific in the case of a deceased loved one.[/quote] How does the ghost interact with sensors in the nose? What is the process? Can the ghost choose to make certain smells? [quote]People hear ghosts — sometimes we hear disembodied voices in a location. And then, of course, there’s actually seeing something. The ghost experience involves our senses. There’s no way around it. So if spirits are energy, and if we need our senses to experience them, then we have a lot of equipment available that can be adapted to help us validate what we’re experiencing in a haunted location.[/quote] If ghosts can be seen, this implies that they are either opaque (so photons can bounce off them into your eyes), and/or give off light themselves. In the case of the former, with the ghost being made of energy, is physically impossible. In the case of the latter, the ghost must be generating energy somehow. Is it smashing hydrogen atoms together? Is there a battery inside it? Also finally, are ghosts affected by gravity?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42321562]Also finally, are ghosts affected by gravity?[/QUOTE] Ghosts are too affected by gravity, there is a huge ball of ectoplasm at the center of the earth where the ghosts of everything that has ever lived ever dwells in a place of perpetual heat, pressure, and agony.

Death truly is the final frontier. I'm not religious, and I don't believe in life after death, but that's the thing isin't it? We will most likely never find a scientific way of discovering lies on the other side of the river Stygx if you will, because there is no way we can reliably test for a afterlife. However, even if it is the last great mystery, it's a mystery we will all eventually get the answer to... I'm just hoping it will be a while before I find out what death is all about.

I'm personally a believer in the idea of a consciousness that succeeds the physical body in some form, be it a soul or some other phenomenon. I'm somewhat religious (Christian), so I believe in heaven and hell, God and Christ, etc., but I think the idea of a non-physical embodiment of the conscious mind that survives when the body dies could be scientifically possible as well. I've wondered about this thing quite a bit, honestly. What if consciousness has its own energy, and what is religiously perceived as a soul is really a scientific phenomenon? What if consciousness is so far and alien from our world that it exists in another plane, and the sentience-capable body serves as an anchor-point to this plane for the consciousness, which is either partially or fully severed from this plane once the body dies? What if we and/or other animals are actually some form of multi-stage life that takes another form in an unperceivable but close parallel of this world upon death, like a tadpole becoming a frog and leaving the water (but with dying involved)? I suppose you could even explain religion scientifically this way, with God or a group of gods being extremely strong consciousnesses/lifeforms and/or the first to exist, and the various realms of the many afterlifes being conjured forth by the powers of the beings that exist beyond the veil of death, or by the first consciousness(es). Perhaps going by this logic, all afterlifes could exist and all gods and demons could as well, since all would be created by the minds or beings that inhabited that space. The sheer number of religions that exist and the fervent belief in them, as well as the effects that devotion to said religions seem to have on this world mean that it's very likely that there's something awaiting us beyond death. Some form of scientific phenomenon that makes communication and semi-physical manifestation of the new lifeform or severed consciousness far more difficult would certainly explain how rare and hard to contact/perceive ghosts/apparitions are. Being in a state of dimensional flux when trying to make contact with this world would certainly explain such difficulties very well. I'm betting we'll get a lot closer to knowing the answer to all of our questions regarding death and consciousness if we ever figure out how to observe or travel to other dimensions, assuming they even exist. Apologies if any of this seems jumbled or muddled, I'm tired as hell. Tried to make sure it was coherent though.

Many people that believe in life after death i have seen seem to think of there being "life force" or memories being energy, saying that energy can't be lost and needs to go somewhere. I think if your body dies, so does your brain, so does your memory. It is over. It might sound depressing, but life before being born wasn't bad either.

[QUOTE=Aj;42321134]I hope I become a rock or some [B]real hot chick[/B].[/QUOTE] Eh, you could end up getting a lot of attention you don't want. I'm not the biggest believer in life after death, but I've done some "research" in that area and there's seemingly more evidence of it existing than evidence saying it doesn't. There's also been a lot of NDE's that are extremely consistent with each other. And it's pretty easy to say "Nope. There's no life after death. Period. End of story." when you never experienced death before... It'd also be a bit awkward and senseless for aware consciousness to just be conjured from nowhere, exist for a bit, then disappear back into nothing upon death.

[QUOTE=xZippy;42321981]It'd also be a bit awkward and senseless for aware consciousness to just be conjured from nowhere, exist for a bit, then disappear back into nothing upon death.[/QUOTE] What exactly is consciousness to you?

I like to think there is, there's a lot of time in eternity for something similar to having a human experience can happen.

So if you say, blew your brains out with a Shotgun, that would stop you from having an afterlife?

i always think about why we as humans are so privileged over the rest of the other life forms on earth and are granted with souls and afterlife paradises or processes of it. I really have to think that if we "live" after life, so does a monkey, or a dog or an ant, so where do we put the limit? life forms are the same in essence in comparison with the rest of matter. Do rocks or air, or atoms have a soul? or does a conscience grant us a soul, so, an afterlife? how does a conscience put our race so high up in the scale of life that it actually makes us immortal? (referencing to living even when we die) Conscience is more probably a consequence of reaching a certain level of brain capacity and intelligence, so as before, it isnt something different from another animals, its just the same but in another expression. I just cant see it having an actual base, or proof, or anything.

I think it is just wishful thinking. There is no proof for an afterlife, absolutely none. The articles about proof for it usually only talk about experiences of people that were near death, but there is also people who felt or saw nothing.

[QUOTE=Niklas;42321994]What exactly is consciousness to you?[/QUOTE] Yeah, I thought my explanation would be confusing. I guess by "consciousness", I meant just pure awareness, or at least the constant activity of the brain. What I meant to say was, it's just a strange thought that you get gain the "essence" or consciousness of life out of nowhere at birth, live your life, then die and have that "essence" vanish back into pure nothing. Which contradicts that whole "energy can't be created or destroyed" thing. Edit: No, that last statement wasn't my "proof" that I mentioned in my previous post. [QUOTE=Niklas;42323116]I think it is just wishful thinking. There is no proof for an afterlife, absolutely none. The articles about proof for it usually only talk about experiences of people that were near death, but there is also people who felt or saw nothing.[/QUOTE] That's... a [I]very[/I] bold statement. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but how exactly do you know that those near death stories are false if you haven't experienced what they have?

[QUOTE=xZippy;42323191]Yeah, I thought my explanation would be confusing. I guess by "consciousness", I meant just pure awareness, or at least the constant activity of the brain. What I meant to say was, it's strange that you get gain the "essence" or consciousness of life out of nowhere at birth, live your life, then die and have that "essence" vanish back into pure nothing. Which contradicts that whole "energy can't be created or destroyed" thing. That's... a [I]very[/I] bold statement. I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but how exactly do you know that those near death stories are false if you haven't experienced what they have?[/QUOTE] Anecdotes are not proof. Consciousness is not energy. Don't pretend to understand the basics of the universe when you abstract it so. Consciousness is the effect achieved by the interactions between energy. [editline]27th September 2013[/editline] Also, you're saying that ~essence~ energy comes from nothing, and yet it is the ~vanishing~ that contradicts our laws of science? You have no idea what you are talking about.

[QUOTE=Bletotum;42323219]Anecdotes are not proof.[/quote] When I said that I've done "research" on the subject, I didn't mean that I used the "energy created destroyed" line as my actual proof... [quote]Also, you're saying that ~essence~ energy comes from nothing, and yet it is the ~vanishing~ that contradicts our laws of science? You have no idea what you are talking about.[/QUOTE] Oh wow, you make it sound like I stomped in here and said "What I say is fact and you can't argue. Accept that I'm right and deal with it." I just said how strange I find it for brain activity to stop forever, as that's a hard thing to imagine.

I didn't say you said that. I said that you said 'consciousness comes from nowhere; for it to vanish into nothing contradicts science'. [QUOTE=xZippy;42323191]it's just a strange thought that you get gain the "essence" or consciousness of life out of nowhere at birth, live your life, then die and have that "essence" vanish back into pure nothing. Which contradicts that whole "energy can't be created or destroyed" thing. [/QUOTE]

I think the afterlife is pure wishful thinking. There is no reason whatsoever to suspect there is one. I guess if you believed in some sort of panpsychism (where a mental life is a feature of all physical things) technically parts of the body might have a sort of mental life, but it wouldn't begin to be comparable to our current mental life which is a result of an incredibly complex system that stops when you die (because that's literally what dying is). There is a great deal more evidence suggesting that people are just very prone to hallucinations than witnessing actual dead people. It's just absurd to continue believing in that sort of thing when there are such elegant, obvious scientific theories describing witnessed phenomena.

I believe that when I die my soul will go to purgatory to work and atone for my sins, Purgatory may or may not be like real-life. However since that is my belief it is likely that in the moments of death my brain will fantasise about it- however since the mind can distort time what may only be seconds could be a much longer time in my head. From a science point of view since mass is never destroyed simply converted I know that my being will go on to contribute in some way in the future, though my conciousness may not necessarily remain.

when did facepunch get all these strange views? how can you even debate something like this? shouldn't this be a fast thread?

[QUOTE=Robbobin;42323442]I think the afterlife is pure wishful thinking.[/QUOTE] This. People are afraid of death and want to believe that humans are special but we're not. We're just animals. We're insignificant micro-organisms compared to the scale of the universe.

For me its not actually that important, I want to lead a good life whether or not there is an afterlife, and if I burn in hell well, I'll worry about that later.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42321562]This isn't exactly how it works. The energy/matter is consumed by microbes, converted into gases, decomposes, etc. What exactly is this "energy" that leaves the body, and where does it go? What type of energy is it? Can I measure it? [quote]Any who, he said that when you die, the energy inside of you would detach from the nerves, body, the brain would give out. You however will be 'lifted' from your body, and become a [I]Ghost[/I]. Prove it. The energy remains in the body initially. It will dissipate gradually as heat energy in all directions out into space. It will be consumed by microbes and converted into gases and new microbes. Also when this energy moves out of your body, how does it interact with each other to produce sentient thought? Can I measure this energy and record it? Does it respond to stimuli? It's seeing things that aren't there. That's because you can hear them, or have otherwise made their presence known because you heard or saw them moving. The floor creaking or a door moving and moving air around can also do this. How does the ghost interact with sensors in the nose? What is the process? Can the ghost choose to make certain smells? If ghosts can be seen, this implies that they are either opaque (so photons can bounce off them into your eyes), and/or give off light themselves. In the case of the former, with the ghost being made of energy, is physically impossible. In the case of the latter, the ghost must be generating energy somehow. Is it smashing hydrogen atoms together? Is there a battery inside it? Also finally, are ghosts affected by gravity?[/QUOTE] The energy as explained in the article I link says that the energy will sort of mend with the most visited environment, mainly because in your conscious state, that's the place most fond in your memory. I'd say. Stimuli, as in 'trigger objects'? Because if you mean that, then yes, the things that you've done, said, possessed in your lifetime, would kinda react to the sentient being as stimuli. And to produce sentient thought, I have no clue whether or not it would be able to produce sentient thought, but on Ghost Adventures (in my honest opinion the most realistic ghost 'hunting' series) they see that intelligent spirits respond to questions directly, not using words most commonly used in their days. The ghost experience is not seeing an apparition, it is witnessing something that was once alive. Seeing things that aren't there include varieties of things, hallucinations, mind-fucks, etc. Sobotnik - [QUOTE]That's because you can hear them, or have otherwise made their presence known because you heard or saw them moving. The floor creaking or a door moving and moving air around can also do this.[/QUOTE] I agree with that logic, but in all sense, when something is behind you, be it hearing, smelling, etc, is when a change of energy around you happens. Most of the time, when a spirit is nearby, it will change the energy around you by making the room colder, or where it is colder. [QUOTE]How does the ghost interact with sensors in the nose? What is the process? Can the ghost choose to make certain smells? [/QUOTE] I'd say it wouldn't be able to choose the smells it produces, because it only changes some of the energies around you. The ghost interacts with the sensors in the nose?- no. It is only when the ghost is around you, that it will somehow be able to remind you that it is a loved one, then memory kicks in. Say your uncle smoked cigars, as stated in the quote from the website, and you were sure that the ghost was your loved one. Smell is closely related to memory, and the nerves in your nose-sensors are controlled by the brain, telling you what the smell you're smelling is. This tells you that you smell a cigar due to you remembering your loved one smoked cigars/smelled of them. [QUOTE]If ghosts can be seen, this implies that they are either opaque (so photons can bounce off them into your eyes), and/or give off light themselves. In the case of the former, with the ghost being made of energy, is physically impossible. In the case of the latter, the ghost must be generating energy somehow. Is it smashing hydrogen atoms together? Is there a battery inside it?[/QUOTE] Ghosts are made of energy, yes. They generate energy from electricity. They only produce the most activity around manifest-able objects, such as the 'Spirit Box'. They drain energy from it, using it to manifest into a full-bodied apparition, or just a spherical orb, usually detected with night vision. And, they are effected by light. Shadows are one example. When shining light towards a ghost, there may or may not be a shadow behind it. On an episode of Ghost Adventures, there was either a dark figure or a shadow that had extended an arm in a lit surface, then the arm morphed into a glob-like object, then collapsed. Not fell to the floor, it, like, disintegrated. This was picked up by a night vision camera, the ray shined towards a pillar, lit up by said ray. Ghosts aren't affected by gravity like we are. I really can't explain it but they're just not.

[QUOTE=WrathOfMe;42328209]The energy as explained in the article I link says that the energy will sort of mend with the most visited environment, mainly because in your conscious state, that's the place most fond in your memory.[/quote] I'm asking how to measure it or record it. How many joules is released upon death? Where does it go? Please explain these gaping holes. [quote]I'd say. Stimuli, as in 'trigger objects'? Because if you mean that, then yes, the things that you've done, said, possessed in your lifetime, would kinda react to the sentient being as stimuli.[/quote] Stimuli as in, what can I do with it? Could I convert the energy from a ghost into heat and use it to boil water? [quote]And to produce sentient thought, I have no clue whether or not it would be able to produce sentient thought, but on Ghost Adventures (in my honest opinion the most realistic ghost 'hunting' series) they see that intelligent spirits respond to questions directly, not using words most commonly used in their days.[/quote] That isn't science. Sentient thought is produced by neurons firing in the brain. Is there a similar mechanism for this "energy"? [quote]The ghost experience is not seeing an apparition, it is witnessing something that was once alive. Seeing things that aren't there include varieties of things, hallucinations, mind-fucks, etc.[/quote] These are flaws in eyesight or thought processing. Do these ghosts have a physical presence? Do they emit energy? [quote]I agree with that logic, but in all sense, when something is behind you, be it hearing, smelling, etc, is when a change of energy around you happens. Most of the time, when a spirit is nearby, it will change the energy around you by making the room colder, or where it is colder.[/quote] So you are saying the ghost is endothermic? If this is true, can I take ghosts and use them to make refrigerators out of? Where does this energy end up as the ghost takes energy from its surroundings? [quote]I'd say it wouldn't be able to choose the smells it produces, because it only changes some of the energies around you.[/quote] Can you actually give me a definition of energy? [quote]The ghost interacts with the sensors in the nose?- no. It is only when the ghost is around you, that it will somehow be able to remind you that it is a loved one, then memory kicks in. Say your uncle smoked cigars, as stated in the quote from the website, and you were sure that the ghost was your loved one. Smell is closely related to memory, and the nerves in your nose-sensors are controlled by the brain, telling you what the smell you're smelling is. This tells you that you smell a cigar due to you remembering your loved one smoked cigars/smelled of them.[/quote] How does the ghost interact with the brain in this case? How does it affect the activities of brain cells? [quote]Ghosts are made of energy, yes. They generate energy from electricity. They only produce the most activity around manifest-able objects, such as the 'Spirit Box'.[/quote] What the fuck is a spirit box? [quote]They drain energy from it, using it to manifest into a full-bodied apparition, or just a spherical orb, usually detected with night vision.[/quote] So they absorb energy and then release it in the form of light? Explain the process by which this operates. [quote]And, they are effected by light. Shadows are one example. When shining light towards a ghost, there may or may not be a shadow behind it.[/quote] I'm ignoring ghost adventures because that isn't a scientific investigation. What causes ghosts to give shadows? Do they always have a shadow? Yes or no? [quote]Ghosts aren't affected by gravity like we are. I really can't explain it but they're just not.[/QUOTE] You have to explain it, otherwise your theory gets thrown out of the window and ghosts remain fictional. Everything is energy or matter. Why doesn't the energy of the ghost dissipate? How does it attain agency? What happens at the boundary layer when ghost meets non-ghost? If you threw a ghost into a black hole what would happen? Will ghosts still be around at the heat death of the universe? If ghosts aren't affected by gravity, why doesn't the earth spin away from them, leaving them in space? If ghosts are the departed souls of dead people why don't we have 60 billion ghosts? Why do only humans become ghosts? At what point in humanity' evolutionary history did ghosts appear? Are there Homo erectus ghosts? Neanderthal ghosts? Why do ghosts only appear in spooky places? Why don't ghosts make contact with us more often, in a way that people can see plain as day? Can you stop dancing and answer these questions which would have to be satisfactorily answered in order to bring this new knowledge into Science?

I do and I think reincarnation is bullshit since new souls are always born.

[QUOTE=spectator1;42328600]I do and I think reincarnation is bullshit since new souls are always born.[/QUOTE] Where do souls come from? Are they energy or matter? How is the soul replenished? When one dies, where does it go? At what stage in evolution did we develop souls? Did they have varying complexities? What advantage does possessing a soul have?