More British Muslims have joined Islamist militant groups than serve in the country’s armed forces - Polidicks

[quote]“I got teary,” he later recalled. “This is what I’d come for!” He pleaded with the Tunisian jihadist manning the recruitment desk, even offering to be held prisoner by the Nusra Front while it did a background check on him. It was all to no avail. Finally the Tunisian offered to help him join another Islamist group, Ahrar al-Sham. Ifthekar refused. He knew that Ahrar permitted smoking, of which he most strenuously disapproved. And so it was that Ifthekar, after being vetted for a fortnight by the group, joined ISIS. His major complaint — which echoed the complaints of many of the foreigners who had come to these battlefields — was that of boredom. Weeks turned into months, and he and many of his fellow fighters had yet to wage jihad. Many manned roadblocks or checkpoints; others performed menial tasks. Ifthekar, whose father owned a takeout restaurant, had traveled to Syria, at considerable risk, to be drafted as a chef. Then, in December 2013, seven months after he arrived, Ifthekar was finally sent into battle in the eastern province of Deir Ezzor. He was killed almost immediately. Ifthekar’s story would become an iconic one of the foreign jihad in Syria. It was recounted to me by Shiraz Maher, a senior research fellow at the International Center for the Study of Radicalization (I.C.S.R.), an innovative institute at King’s College London. Here, a handful of researchers have been charting, following and, in some cases, interacting directly with foreign fighters in Syria and Iraq — through text-messaging and smartphone apps — in hopes of understanding their motivations and their worldview. The center now monitors some 700 of the 20,000 foreign fighters from 90 countries around the world. (Foreigners make up half of ISIS’s total fighting force.) An estimated 4,000 are from Western nations, some 600 to 700 from Britain alone. More British Muslim men have joined ISIS and the Nusra Front than are serving in the British armed forces. Many of the fighters from Britain — as well as those from Finland, Germany, France, Belgium and the Netherlands — came from comfortable middle-class homes. Many were university students or graduates; a surprising number were women, too. But they didn’t appear to fit a typical profile, which confounded counterterrorism experts and Western governments. Some, like Ifthekar, seemed driven by romantic notions of jihad. Others, like Mohammed Emwazi, who later became known as Jihadi John, the ruthless executioner of Western journalists and aid workers in the ISIS videos, fully embraced the violence of the Islamic State. Emwazi was also a Briton, and also the son of a comfortable middle-class family, with a degree in computer programming. And then there were still other cases in which entire families made their way to Syria or Iraq: pregnant women; young children; even the family pets. [/quote] [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/19/magazine/her-majestys-jihadists.html?smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0"]New York Times[/URL]

I don't understand why so many regular people are joining ISIS, they have to know that it's a bad idea. They're going into shitty conditions and they are going to be killed.

[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;47531316]I don't understand why so many regular people are joining ISIS, they have to know that it's a bad idea. They're going into shitty conditions and they are going to be killed.[/QUOTE] Yeah they must be aware, so the question is why are they still happy to go in such numbers.

Because it's a deeply religious thing. They probably consider it an honour to die for the first caliphate in God knows how many years. You could say the same thing about Greek immigrants returning from the USA to Greece when Italy invaded. They knew they were going to a war zone, but it was more important to them than staying at home. Except for ISIS, it's religious zeal, not nationalism.

[QUOTE=deltasquid;47531382]Because it's a deeply religious thing. They probably consider it an honour to die for the first caliphate in God knows how many years. You could say the same thing about Greek immigrants returning from the USA to Greece when Italy invaded. They knew they were going to a war zone, but it was more important to them than staying at home. Except for ISIS, it's religious zeal, not nationalism.[/QUOTE] It's incredibly worrying then because ISIS interpretation of Islam is big on harems and selling kids into slavery.

[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;47531316]I don't understand why so many regular people are joining ISIS, they have to know that it's a bad idea. They're going into shitty conditions and they are going to be killed.[/QUOTE] 1. They don't fear death because in Islam, martyrdom brings you to heaven. 2. It's not a bad idea for most conservative Muslims.

[QUOTE]seemed driven by [B]romantic notions of jihad[/B]. Others, like Mohammed Emwazi, who later became known as Jihadi John, the ruthless executioner of Western journalists and aid workers in the ISIS videos, fully embraced the violence of the Islamic State. [/QUOTE] How is violent executions, mass beheadings, ethnic cleansing and an untold other number of horrors classed as a romantic notion of Jiihad, if anything I would assume it to be the cold reality. Originally I assumed that many of these people were radicalized by fundamentalist preachers and fed all sorts of bs about what its like over there. But it seems to me that anybody can see for themselves by just reading about it, or even seeing those awful execution videos for themselves. The people who join up must know for themselves a good idea of what their getting into and thus seem to be just general shitty human beings.

The only Muslim guy I know joined the Royal Australian Infantry and regularly complains on Facebook how people like ISIS are making it more difficult for sane Muslims and how he wished he'd get deployed to fight them.

[QUOTE=Zhid;47531426]1. They don't fear death because in Islam, martyrdom brings you to heaven. 2. It's not a bad idea for most conservative Muslims.[/QUOTE] How is it a good idea to join ISIS? Seriously what kind of retarded bullshit is that?

[QUOTE=deltasquid;47531382]Because it's a deeply religious thing. They probably consider it an honour to die for the first caliphate in God knows how many years. You could say the same thing about Greek immigrants returning from the USA to Greece when Italy invaded. They knew they were going to a war zone, but it was more important to them than staying at home. Except for ISIS, it's religious zeal, not nationalism.[/QUOTE] The thing is, a lot of second-gen immigrants don't really feel at home in Western cultures. They're between the culture of their parents and the one they live in, not really belonging to either. That makes them vulnerable to propaganda. Joining ISIS establishes an identity and gives them the feeling they're finally fighting for something higher.

It's also a lot easier to take a plane to Syria than it is to join the British army.

Let's not blow this out of proportion. There are 2.8 million Muslims living in the United Kingdom, of which approximately ~650 went to join ISIS. That accounts for 0.0002% of the UK population of Muslims being radicalized enough to do this. Saying that more joined ISIS than joined the military makes it sound scary, but the truth is not that there are a lot of radical British Muslims joining extremist groups; just that almost no Muslim immigrants join the country's armed forces.

[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;47531316]I don't understand why so many regular people are joining ISIS, they have to know that it's a bad idea. They're going into shitty conditions and they are going to be killed.[/QUOTE] They have a full blown propaganda machine that pumps out videos almost every day.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47531639]Let's not blow this out of proportion. There are 2.8 million Muslims living in the United Kingdom, of which approximately ~650 went to join ISIS. That accounts for 0.0002% of the UK population of Muslims being radicalized enough to do this. Saying that more joined ISIS than joined the military makes it sound scary, but the truth is not that there are a lot of radical British Muslims joining extremist groups; just that almost no Muslim immigrants join the country's armed forces.[/QUOTE] It shouldn't blown out of proportion, but the fact that it's more popular with immigrants to join a radicalized unconventional force that beheads and burns people than the country's own military [I]is[/I] concerning. That shows that there is a problem regarding allegiance to the country they reside in. Anyway, that fact really isn't the most interesting part of the article. What I find more interesting is the fact that the article positively glows with the lack of an actual solution to the problem. It's a really complex issue. Great piece, though.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;47531839]It shouldn't blown out of proportion, but the fact that it's more popular with immigrants to join a radicalized unconventional force that beheads and burns people than the country's own military [I]is[/I] concerning. That shows that there is a problem regarding allegiance to the country they reside in. Anyway, that fact really isn't the most interesting part of the article. What I find more interesting is the fact that the article positively glows with the lack of an actual solution to the problem. It's a really complex issue. Great piece, though.[/QUOTE] In the last ten years alone, the population of Muslim immigrants living within the UK has increased by almost 80%. The vast majority of the Muslim population of the UK are only first or second generation immigrants, many of which immigrated pretty specifically to leave war-torn areas behind. Add that to the fact that the leading Western military engagements in the world over the past fifteen to twenty years are against their former homelands, and that chief among them was the highly criticized invasions by the US (which is what spawned the newest fighting anyway). Is it any wonder that there isn't a lot of desire for them to take up arms in national service? They'd be fighting in wars against their own former countrymen that were started under dubious circumstances and which directly led to the formation of even more extreme terrorist groups than existed initially. Furthermore, the general attitude towards Muslims in the UK doesn't seem to be especially warm. It could even be safely argued that they're treated like second class citizens. That certainly doesn't inspire a sense of pride in their new homes. It makes a great deal of sense that enlistment rates would be rock bottom.

[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;47531324]Yeah they must be aware, so the question is why are they still happy to go in such numbers.[/QUOTE] I mean they [I]are[/I] leaving Britain, soooooo

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47531874]In the last ten years alone, the population of Muslim immigrants living within the UK has increased by almost 80%. The vast majority of the Muslim population of the UK are only first or second generation immigrants, many of which immigrated pretty specifically to leave war-torn areas behind. Add that to the fact that the leading military engagements in the world right now are against their former homelands, which was sparked in large part by highly criticized invasions by the US, which saw massive civilian casualties, is it any wonder that there isn't a lot of desire for them to take up arms? Furthermore, the general attitude towards Muslims in the UK doesn't seem to be especially warm, which doesn't seem to inspire much national pride. It makes a great deal of sense that enlistment rates would be rock bottom.[/QUOTE] and it's very common that anti-immigrant and Islamophobic rhetoric blends together, so you've gotta question whether they're supposed to be first/second-generation immigrants who would thus have no reason to join the army, or if they're supposed to be third or fourth generation ones and the immigration debate is completely meaningless to them. they're only compatible after tabloids render down both into "FUCKIN MUZZIES...."

[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;47531588]How is it a good idea to join ISIS? Seriously what kind of retarded bullshit is that?[/QUOTE] It's a good idea for most devout Muslims. Why wouldn't it be? You get to kill the enemies of Islam, you get to become a martyr and go to heaven. ISIS carries out most of the Islamic verses.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47531874]In the last ten years alone, the population of Muslim immigrants living within the UK has increased by almost 80%. The vast majority of the Muslim population of the UK are only first or second generation immigrants, many of which immigrated pretty specifically to leave war-torn areas behind. Add that to the fact that the leading Western military engagements in the world over the past fifteen to twenty years are against their former homelands, and that chief among them was the highly criticized invasions by the US (which is what spawned the newest fighting anyway). Is it any wonder that there isn't a lot of desire for them to take up arms in national service? They'd be fighting in wars against their own former countrymen that were started under dubious circumstances and which directly led to the formation of even more extreme terrorist groups than existed initially. Furthermore, the general attitude towards Muslims in the UK doesn't seem to be especially warm. It could even be safely argued that they're treated like second class citizens. That certainly doesn't inspire a sense of pride in their new homes. It makes a great deal of sense that enlistment rates would be rock bottom.[/QUOTE] Except the majority of Muslims in the UK have Pakistani heritage - Pakistan is not war torn and the UK is not involved in a conflict there. Some Muslim British soldiers have spoken of their experiences and say they want to help people in Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. but many are put off from joining the army, not because of what they would be doing, but because of pressure and threats from extremists in their own communities. Also saying that it can safely be argued that Muslims are second class citizens here is frankly insulting.

Luckily, there is a lot of sane muslims out there, just are represented as crazed jihadists by propaganda and the media. Here is a good example of this. [video=youtube;HjRI2AsF3h0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjRI2AsF3h0&safe=active[/video] [editline]15th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;47531316]I don't understand why so many regular people are joining ISIS, they have to know that it's a bad idea. They're going into shitty conditions and they are going to be killed.[/QUOTE] Mostly because of brainwashed idiots.

[QUOTE=Rapscallion92;47531588]How is it a good idea to join ISIS? Seriously what kind of retarded bullshit is that?[/QUOTE] 72 virgins in heaven

More meat to the grinder. Maybe when thousands of western Muslim sons have been killed those in the west that encouraged them to fight against the west and made them think that this course of action was just, might begin to regret it, but that's not going to happen they will blame the west further even as they live in its society and are protected by its laws.

[QUOTE=download;47531512]The only Muslim guy I know joined the Royal Australian Infantry and regularly complains on Facebook how people like ISIS are making it more difficult for sane Muslims and how he wished he'd get deployed to fight them.[/QUOTE] I recently saw a VICE video with Boko Haram of Muslims and Christians fighting together to get rid of them. They considered Boko Haram to be devils. It's kinda cool when both religions can actually work together, like brothers. I just hope once they get rid of Boko Haram, they can keep the same brother ship, and not fight against each other.

[QUOTE=Big Dumb American;47531874]In the last ten years alone, the population of Muslim immigrants living within the UK has increased by almost 80%. The vast majority of the Muslim population of the UK are only first or second generation immigrants, many of which immigrated pretty specifically to leave war-torn areas behind. Add that to the fact that the leading Western military engagements in the world over the past fifteen to twenty years are against their former homelands, and that chief among them was the highly criticized invasions by the US (which is what spawned the newest fighting anyway). Is it any wonder that there isn't a lot of desire for them to take up arms in national service? They'd be fighting in wars against their own former countrymen that were started under dubious circumstances and which directly led to the formation of even more extreme terrorist groups than existed initially. Furthermore, the general attitude towards Muslims in the UK doesn't seem to be especially warm. It could even be safely argued that they're treated like second class citizens. That certainly doesn't inspire a sense of pride in their new homes. It makes a great deal of sense that enlistment rates would be rock bottom.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that I don't understand why they wouldn't join the British army, I'm simply saying that the fact that even ISIS is more popular is concerning - is it even possible to disagree? My post of course suggested that we could extrapolate a bit and say that there's a general issue with immigrants not feeling British, and I don't think that's unfair to say. I don't understand your point about fighting countrymen - the British Armed Forces are only involved in air strikes, while ISIS is actively fighting both the Iraqi and the Syrian army, as well as other groups largely made up of local population. Joining ISIS isn't something you do because you're disgruntled with Britain, you do it because you align with them ideologically - though of course those two can go hand in hand. [QUOTE]I asked Maher if, based on the center’s research, he could draw a typical jihadist profile. “The average British fighter is male, in his early 20s and of South Asian ethnic origin,” he began. “He usually has some university education and some association with activist groups. Over and over again, we have seen that radicalization is not necessarily driven by social deprivation or poverty.” He paused for a moment, and then went on. “Other than those who go for humanitarian reasons, some of the foreign fighters are students of martyrdom; they want to die as soon as possible and go directly to paradise. We’ve seen four British suicide bombers thus far among the 38 Britons who have been killed. Then there are the adventure seekers — those who think this will enhance their masculinity, the gang members and the petty criminals too; and then, of course, the die-hard radicals, who began by burning the American flag and who then advanced to wanting to kill Americans — or their partners — under any circumstance.”[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;47531316]I don't understand why so many regular people are joining ISIS, they have to know that it's a bad idea. They're going into shitty conditions and they are going to be killed.[/QUOTE] They're not 'regular people'. They're religious fanatics that bought into ISIS's claims.

[QUOTE=Monkah;47534560]They're not 'regular people'. They're religious fanatics that bought into ISIS's claims.[/QUOTE] And they're also regular people brought into the religious fanaticism needed. Nobody is born a religious nut, that's something they are taught, or threatened into.

Damn, England, you're getting really crappy Muslims compared to us (United States). You guys need to figure out a non-racist, non-totalitarian way of curbing the spread of these ideas.

[QUOTE=Lord_Ragnarok;47535089]Damn, England, you're getting really crappy Muslims compared to us (United States). You guys need to figure out a non-racist, non-totalitarian way of curbing the spread of these ideas.[/QUOTE] We're not sat here burning copies of the Quran, we're just living in our culture which unfortunately people get brainwashed into thinking is evil. Someone else here said that Muslims in Britain get treated like second class citizens as well, which I resent. I've never treated anyone badly based on their religion or ethnicity, so screw you. There was an article (I think BBC) I read earlier which talked about a lot of British Muslims who went to fight trying to come home - think they realised that being sent to shit awful conditions to murder innocent people and get ultimately blown to buggery by airstrike isn't quite as cool as it originally sounds. I don't know, the radicals seem to have gotten their art down to a T.

[QUOTE=Matriax;47535195]We're not sat here burning copies of the Quran, we're just living in our culture which unfortunately people get brainwashed into thinking is evil. Someone else here said that Muslims in Britain get treated like second class citizens as well, which I resent. I've never treated anyone badly based on their religion or ethnicity, so screw you. There was an article (I think BBC) I read earlier which talked about a lot of British Muslims who went to fight trying to come home - think they realised that being sent to shit awful conditions to murder innocent people and get ultimately blown to buggery by airstrike isn't quite as cool as it originally sounds. I don't know, the radicals seem to have gotten their art down to a T.[/QUOTE] Whoa! I never pointed at anything that English people are doing in particular. And, as someone who looks Arab, I've been treated poorly by people who have mistaken my race in my country, I'm not suggesting that you're complete racists and that the United States are a bunch of saints. I'm just curious why you're getting the jihadist ones and we've been getting the liberal ones. I don't have a solution or a specific suggestion, I just find it interesting. There was no reason for you tell me "screw you."

[QUOTE=Zhid;47532023]It's a good idea for most devout Muslims. Why wouldn't it be? You get to kill the enemies of Islam, you get to become a martyr and go to heaven. ISIS carries out most of the Islamic verses.[/QUOTE] Fuck your asshole in the sky and your books, slaying innocent people is wrong, fundamentally like 95% of the shit they're implementing is wrong, one nice tidy example being gang raping children and selling them as sex slaves. Great idea for a devout muslim and a fucking terrible person. [editline]16th April 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Matriax;47535195]We're not sat here burning copies of the Quran, we're just living in our culture which unfortunately people get brainwashed into thinking is evil. Someone else here said that Muslims in Britain get treated like second class citizens as well, which I resent. I've never treated anyone badly based on their religion or ethnicity, so screw you. There was an article (I think BBC) I read earlier which talked about a lot of British Muslims who went to fight trying to come home - think they realised that being sent to shit awful conditions to murder innocent people and get ultimately blown to buggery by airstrike isn't quite as cool as it originally sounds. I don't know, the radicals seem to have gotten their art down to a T.[/QUOTE] Not one single fucking person goes over there thinking they won't be killing people, I don't believe any fucking one of them thought they would be joining ISIS accounting department.