Thousands of Ukrainians Flee to Russia as Army Attacks - Polidicks

[QUOTE]Last week, Natasha decided she had seen enough. Her hometown of Kramatorsk, in east Ukraine, was pocked by airstrikes. Dead bodies lay in the streets. With the Ukrainian military’s pursuit of pro-Russian fighters intensifying, the mother of three fled, crossing into Russia on Friday. Natasha, who declined to provide her last name for fear of being targeted if she returned to Ukraine, and her children are now among nearly two dozen people crowding into a volunteer’s dacha, or country house, outside of Moscow. They are part of a growing number of Ukrainians who have left their homes as Ukrainian forces step up a fierce fight against rebel forces. In recent weeks, Russian officials have sounded the alarm about a growing humanitarian crisis along their border. “We are really on the brink of a humanitarian disaster,” Vasily Gobulev, the governor of Russia’s Rostov region, said on Wednesday, according to Russia’s Interfax news agency. Yet, like much of the conflict, the scope of the refugee problem remains murky. All that is clear is that many have fled and that the trend appears to be accelerating. Figures provided by the Russian government have been disputed by independent activists who have visited camps along the border. Top Russian officials claim around 500,000 Ukrainians have crossed the border since the start of the year. Of that number, some 180,000 are said to have registered as refugees, including nearly 21,000 children. Over 20,000 have reportedly applied for asylum in Russia. [/QUOTE] [url]http://news.yahoo.com/thousands-ukrainians-flee-russia-army-attacks-213634037--abc-news-topstories.html[/url]

Kind of ironic considering all the "if they like Russia so much, they can move there" posts. They basically have now. I don't fully endorse what the Ukrainian government did, but I have no doubt that Russia played its hand in the armed uprising. Barring reports and rumors of giving equipment or money to fuel rebellion, there is no denying that their invasion of Crimea sparked a fire in the Eastern Ukrainians that would not have been lit as much as it was had Russia never invaded. If they stayed out of Crimea, I doubt the East would have been as tenacious. They would have protested the change, but I doubt they would have started an armed uprising.

Im sure anyone would want to run away from any country that's literally shelling entire cities and villages into the ground. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlKacrqOmIw?t=12m51s[/media]

Shelling or not, if a battle was happening near or inside the city I was living in I'd move out of there pronto and go live with my siblings.

Bye Felicia.

[QUOTE=mix999;45364192]Im sure anyone would want to run away from any country that's literally shelling entire cities and villages into the ground. [/QUOTE] Because Russia has never done that before. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sX4v2V2H4jg[/media] [IMG]http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000wdyS2VbxHaQ/s/500/03-grozny-russia-1995.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Books/Pix/pictures/2008/03/03/groznychild372.jpg[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.topinbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Grozny.jpg[/IMG]

Soon the Ukranian Military will push all the way to the edge of the crimean peninsula and there they can scowl at the russians over the border.

Well atleast Ukrainian government dont do the mistakes we did in our civil war. That is mass executions of people who's relatives were "red's". Or put them in intern camps where they would starve to death. Then again this is not ideological civil war which are much more bloody.

[QUOTE=ripsipiirakk;45365246]Well atleast Ukrainian government dont do the mistakes we did in our civil war. That is mass executions of people who's relatives were "red's". Or put them in intern camps where they would starve to death. Then again this is not ideological civil war which are much more bloody.[/QUOTE] If they would do executions, they can forget about all this european integration stuff for ages. Also, 500k of refugees. Wow. Even if they doubled or tripled the real number, it's still a hell of a lot of people. Basically, it's a mid size town. My parents live in Voronezh (a pretty big city in only about 200 km from ukrainian border) , and they told me that notes with requests to give shelters to ukrainian refugees appear all over the place. As far as they know, the government is also using recreation camps and hotels for this purpose.

[QUOTE=InvaderNouga;45365198]Because Russia has never done that before. [/QUOTE] I wonder what Russia 20 years ago has to do with east ukrainians now. So much dumb.

[QUOTE=BananaFoam;45363895]Kind of ironic considering all the "if they like Russia so much, they can move there" posts. They basically have now. I don't fully endorse what the Ukrainian government did, but I have no doubt that Russia played its hand in the armed uprising. Barring reports and rumors of giving equipment or money to fuel rebellion, there is no denying that their invasion of Crimea sparked a fire in the Eastern Ukrainians that would not have been lit as much as it was had Russia never invaded. If they stayed out of Crimea, I doubt the East would have been as tenacious. They would have protested the change, but I doubt they would have started an armed uprising.[/QUOTE] The problem is that the real victims are the normal ukrainian civilians who are being shat on both both sides political and ideological masturbations.

[QUOTE=mix999;45364192]Im sure anyone would want to run away from any country that's literally shelling entire cities and villages into the ground. [/QUOTE] When you sow the seeds of war, anyone who is foolish enough to stay in a city about to become a warzone is exactly that, a fucking fool. It doesn't take half a brain to realize that their little "donetsk republic" is about to be destroyed and every member of the military front is most likely going to be hanged for treason. They made their choices when they decided, "lol we crimea now guiz" and this is the price you ultimately pay when you do not win your secession bid initially.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45367328]When you sow the seeds of war, anyone who is foolish enough to stay in a city about to become a warzone is exactly that, a fucking fool. It doesn't take half a brain to realize that their little "donetsk republic" is about to be destroyed and every member of the military front is most likely going to be hanged for treason. They made their choices when they decided, "lol we crimea now guiz" and this is the price you ultimately pay when you do not win your secession bid initially.[/QUOTE] 'sow the seeds of war' This just in, exercising self-determination is an offensive maneuver. lol It's nothing short of victim blaming. When you unlawfully overthrow a government a demographic elects and then pursue policies to the opposite of what they want, yea they'll fight you. Especially since there's now a political vacuum in terms of Eastern representation in the government. The KPU is looking like its going to be banned, and the Party of Regions has already collapsed, and many of its MPs capitulated. Nobody in the east right now has any obligation to the state just because it claims to be Ukraine. It's also victim blaming to assume when the state comes for these people they should leave their homes or die. lmfao

Every damn time I hear the term "victim blaming" I just want to mock the victims more. It is exactly how I would of mocked out the people at Bunkerville had the government came down on them. Because it's common-knowledge that they made the choice to stay there. The government has made it obvious in it's statements, news broadcasts, and otherwise that they were going to roll these towns over to deal with this insurrection. The insurrection of which is made from the "self-determination" of these fools who actually thought that Russia would dump any sane strategic/tactical position to invade East Ukraine. As far as I'm concerned, these people calling foul for artillery bombardments, these people calling foul for aerial bombings, and troops movements... They need to look in the damn mirror. Novorussian's are responsible for the shoot down of a cargo plane carrying soldiers who had not even set foot on the ground. Where was the foul call in this? Where were the people saying, "holy shit geneva conventions you cunts"? The way I see it, any East Ukrainian which calls themselves a "Novorussian" and is aiding the fight against the Ukrainian military, is a bloody traitor, and deserve whatever is coming to them. I am honestly sick of trying to find sympathies for the people staying in these regions. They honestly have had two to three weeks of warning to get the hell out of dodge before the Ukrainian military came down on them. They made the choice to stay, they made the choice to dig their own hole. It's not victim blaming, it is attempting to reconcile with these people to get their heads out of their asses, and realize how bad their situation is.

So it basically boils down to 1. Anyone who has sympathies for Novorossiya is a traitor (Svoboda would love you, that's a cultural thing). What next, anyone who speaks Russian is too? 2. The government said x so whoever dies, it's their fault. 3. People who say 'victim blaming' put me into a psychopathic rage This is exactly why this is not an 'anti-terror' operation. This is a war of the nationalist west waged on the pro-russian east, after they refused to recognize the new Maidan government, demanded federalization/autonomy, and cities began moves toward independence. Not even with that in mind, I don't see how shooting down a plane (that I doubt they knew the contents of) in your airspace is equivalent to the nationalist Ukrainian state and its sponsored paramilitaries, privately owned militias, etc. going on the offensive and using everything a conventional military has at its disposal to raze East Ukraine.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45367772]1. Anyone who has sympathies for Novorossiya is a traitor (Svoboda would love you). What next, anyone who speaks Russian is too? [/quote] If you are housing, feeding, clothing, scouting, or directly aiding the Novorussian Militia in any sense, yes. You are a collaborator and traitor. If only a far-right group like Svoboda can see that, then fine. I'll be a fucking Nazi. They would be the only ones with common sense then. [QUOTE=Conscript;45367772]2. The government said x so whoever dies, it's their fault.[/quote] Government says very clearly: "We are about to attack this region and area, and begin a massive pacification operation" what does this tell you about the current situation? If my place of living(Mandan, North Dakota) was invaded during a pacification operation, and I was not directly related to the opposition force, I would get my pets, family, and valuables together, and go live with my family in New York. I wouldn't risk losing loved ones over some foolish hope that things will get better. [QUOTE=Conscript;45367772]3. People who say 'victim blaming' put me into a psychopathic rage[/quote] Is it really psychopathic to say that people need to start thinking rationally? All of the messages the government and Novorussian separatist have been saying over their news sources has indicated that the final battle is going to take place in Donetsk. Anyone between the Ukrainian Military and Donetsk is officially a warzone for those forces, and anyone in between should try to become refugees to avoid the bloodshed. Anyone who stays is being ignorant to prior warnings, and their loved ones and themselves are going to get hurt or killed because of it. It's fucking stupid. They need to get out of there and spare their family and friends from getting hurt by the incoming battle. [QUOTE=Conscript;45367772]This is exactly why this is not an 'anti-terror' operation. This is a war of the nationalist west with the pro-russian east, after they refused to recognize the new Maidan government.[/QUOTE] Yes. It's a civil war. That's why I'm saying that these people should get out of the combat zone, and not doing so is ignorant and foolish. They are going to get themselves or their loved ones killed because they are being gluttonous, foolish, and ignorant. What house will they return to if said house is destroyed in the midst of a battle? What life will they have to come back too if they are dead? It's common-sense. If they stay in this area when the battle is going down(as people have in those videos), they are being stupid. I mean seriously, in one of those videos, people are surrounding a group of Ukrainian soldiers in the middle of a gunfight. What the hell are they thinking?

[quote]If you are housing, feeding, clothing, scouting, or directly aiding the Novorussian Militia in any sense, yes. You are a collaborator and traitor. If only a far-right group like Svoboda can see that, then fine. I'll be a fucking Nazi. They would be the only ones with common sense then. [/quote] Speaks for itself I guess. But it begs the question, what makes you think nationalist West Ukraine has any right to the East? It's clear, in peace time politics, they exercised their self-determination and formed their own political block. They would've never voted for EU membership, repeal of the 2012 minority language law, etc. The rest I don't really care about. You think because you call it war you have a right to whatever you want to these people. Thank fucking god they have guns. Also, lol @ 'gluttonous, foolish, and arrogant'. You're saying because East Ukraine doesn't get up and [i]leave East Ukraine[/i] they're arrogant, that they're fighting for [i]their own immediate self-interest[/i] is gluttonous.

With the West being pro-EU and East being pro-EEU, it would of ultimately benefited the east to use their greater political sway in parliament to overthrow the Maiden government. They did not do this, and instead went about starting a civil war which ultimately has cemented the power of the Maiden government, and once this war is over, be it with the end or start of Novorussia, we'll see a much stronger Maiden government that would have not existed had the Novorussian rebels sticked to politics. We can only imagine how the elections could of turned out with the transitional Maiden government losing Crimea, massive military desertion rates, and convincing Russian to turn off the power in June. We would of seen the Maiden government lose most of it's public support by April, and possibly another Ukrainian revolution to instate a Pro-Russian leader. Sadly though we'll never see that because the Novorussians instead went on a route that ultimately has fueled Nationalism in West/Central Ukraine, and with the most-plausible defeat of Novorussia, we'll see pro-Ukrainian/pro-EU groups in eastern Ukraine getting massive spikes in popularity, with the minority Pro-EEU groups becoming a minority. Ukraine is most likely going to have a nationalist, maybe even neo-nazi majority now because of this war. Which will only cause a greater amount of discrimination against pro-Russians.

Again, victim blaming. You think because they didn't retaliate in a way you approve, the coup government (the original instigators in all this) is right to be even tougher? How self-serving. Even in the impartial interests of peace, that is stupid. When buildings in the East were being seized and Crimea broke away, Maidan should've federalized Ukraine. Anything else is absurd logic only a revanchist would hold. Also, [url=http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/radan_gs09/ns_golos?g_id=3894]what political sway in parliament?[/url] How do you think the repeal of the 2012 language law which threatened Russian-speaking minorities (and others, even Greek-speaking, as the Party of Regions drafted that bill for all minority languages) even happened in the first place? [quote]Sadly though we'll never see that because the Novorussians instead went on a route that ultimately has fueled Nationalism in West/Central Ukraine, and with the most-plausible defeat of Novorussia, we'll see pro-Ukrainian/pro-EU groups in eastern Ukraine getting massive spikes in popularity, with the minority Pro-EEU groups becoming a minority.[/quote] [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Svoboda-2012.png]Nationalism is already well fueled in west ukraine[/url], you have no idea what you're talking about. What the maidan government has done in the path 6 months is just taking the party positions of Svoboda, UDAR etc. to their conclusion, and accordingly those parties have been reigning in the state since february. It has nothing to do with the rebels' actions. The language law repeal certainly didn't. Also, the latter will only happen if there is ethnic cleansing or mass exodus. Which won't happen, Putin might be bound by international considerations but the rest of the pro-russian slavic world won't leave Novorossiya to the mercy of Banderists and their oligarch allies. In such a bloodbath, Russia will intervene.

It's not victim blaming, as they are not victims. When you fullheartedly support an secessionist front, you in yourself are a rebel, not an innocent bystander. If you stay in a warzone, even knowing the risk and dangers, you are without a brain. The points I am trying to make in every post I have made thus far: 1. When you stay in a warzone, you shouldn't whine and bitch about bad things happening. When you made the choice to stay there, you are just as much at fault as the military bombing the town. 2. What would happen if a "New Confederate States of America" tried to succeed from the United States? War. Just because you have a little "referendum" doesn't mean people really give a shit. Why didn't they have this referendum a year or so after everything settled down? Why do it, and have a war to follow with it? 3. Neoryssia is going to be destroyed, because of this, Nationalism and possibly Neo-Nazism is going to get a massive boost in Ukraine, akin to how the Ku Klux Klan got new members after the 2nd World War. 4. The government is warning people of the upcoming battle, and is telling them to get the hell out. Staying there is foolish.

This is starting to repeat. 1. It doesn't matter what West Ukraine declares it to be. That's the fucking point. Your logic is that because they brandish a gun and call it a warzone it's the East Ukrainian's fault for living in East Ukraine. I can't believe you equate the choice of living in a city as a civilian to the military's choice to bomb it. 2. On the flip side, just because you have men with guns doesn't mean the people who held that referendum for independence from you should surrender to 'unity'. Again retarded, victim blaming logic. Also yea, they are victims. If Kurds declared their own state in Turkey and the military assaulted them, they too would be victims.

And it doesn't matter what Novoryssia thinks they are. They are apart of Ukraine as declared by about 100 or so countries who recognize Ukraine's borders as such. They may not like that, but tough shit. As far as most of the world is concerned, they are a ragtag militia of Pro-Russians, whom come from multiple backgrounds, and decided to declare they are a country with a referendum which was illegal on the global stage. Give or take, two to three months we shall see the demise of Novoryssia, with the leaders of it's militia and government being exiled or jailed. The eastern parts of Ukraine will be put under martial law while the rest of the Novoryssia insurgents are dealt with, and we'll probably see the Maiden government becoming more powerful in part to a new surge of Ukrainian nationalism.

There won't be a demise of Novorossiya because it's not a government, it's a region distinct from Ukraine and even predates its modern form. This is far from the end, I'm afraid, this is the spark for a new cold war. I only wish more Russophobes and nationalists showed their true face like you. Bandera would be proud of your willingness to kill and cleanse.

I honestly could just care less about the situation. When I hear about civilians staying behind despite military warnings to evacuate, it really just confuses me tbh.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45369410]I honestly could just care less about the situation. When I hear about civilians staying behind despite military warnings to evacuate, it really just confuses me tbh.[/QUOTE] Somehow I doubt someone without strong feelings would say this: [quote]If you are housing, feeding, clothing, scouting, or directly aiding the Novorussian Militia in any sense, yes. You are a collaborator and traitor. If only a far-right group like Svoboda can see that, then fine. I'll be a fucking Nazi. They would be the only ones with common sense then. [/quote] Especially considering just how relative treason is in Ukraine right now.

so... aiding, supplying, and housing people who willingly kill ukrainian soldiers is not treason or collaboration?

I dont think ill put much value into sporadic revolutions in the future.

[QUOTE=Conscript;45369379]There won't be a demise of Novorossiya because it's not a government, it's a region distinct from Ukraine and even predates its modern form. This is far from the end, I'm afraid, this is the spark for a new cold war. I only wish more Russophobes and nationalists showed their true face like you. Bandera would be proud of your willingness to kill and cleanse.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Conscript;45368377]Again, victim blaming. You think because they didn't retaliate in a way you approve, the coup government (the original instigators in all this) is right to be even tougher? How self-serving. Even in the impartial interests of peace, that is stupid. When buildings in the East were being seized and Crimea broke away, Maidan should've federalized Ukraine. Anything else is absurd logic only a revanchist would hold. Also, [url=http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/radan_gs09/ns_golos?g_id=3894]what political sway in parliament?[/url] How do you think the repeal of the 2012 language law which threatened Russian-speaking minorities (and others, even Greek-speaking, as the Party of Regions drafted that bill for all minority languages) even happened in the first place? [url=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Svoboda-2012.png]Nationalism is already well fueled in west ukraine[/url], you have no idea what you're talking about. What the maidan government has done in the path 6 months is just taking the party positions of Svoboda, UDAR etc. to their conclusion, and accordingly those parties have been reigning in the state since february. It has nothing to do with the rebels' actions. The language law repeal certainly didn't. Also, the latter will only happen if there is ethnic cleansing or mass exodus. Which won't happen, Putin might be bound by international considerations but the rest of the pro-russian slavic world won't leave Novorossiya to the mercy of Banderists and their oligarch allies. In such a bloodbath, Russia will intervene.[/QUOTE] you seem to have a doctorate in not knowing what the fuck you are talking about

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;45370041]so... aiding, supplying, and housing people who willingly kill ukrainian soldiers is not treason or collaboration?[/QUOTE] Are you daft? No it's not, look what state those soldiers are taking orders from. Lol, this is amazing. So if I get into power by any means, you fight me and you're a traitor. Only because my soldiers are of some nationality. Great fucking logic.

so when does it get to the point when the minority of ukrainians in russia can get special privileged citizenship like russians in ukraine demand?