I hope they never do voiced protagonist again. I hated that so much.
Anyway If they get as much of a step up from Skyrim as the did from Oblivion then we'll have something truly great.
The takeaways are:
BGS is so insulated and PC that teams don't even fucking communicate between leads.
There is no such thing as criticism or hard feedback during or after the hardening phase at BGS.
The notion they rely on the community to literally fix their shit is literally true, not just a smarmy truism.
The Design Leads are not remotely hands on at all, despite being Leads.
They don't see railroading characters or players as a flaw despite the fact their signature products are [i]open world[/i].
They have the money to spend on VAs and iterate quest overlap until the cows come home for everything, they don't have the money to sublicense the tools they use so modders can make the best use of their framework, and thereby enhance their product exponentially for years to come; and somehow the modders stay with them anyway.
As a design lead all I can say to that is :rolleyes:
Sounds like some princesses need to step out of the ivory corner offices and get their elbows dirty again.
Jesus christ Todd. I'm losing some respect for him as a game designer. To say that the focus on combat was unintentional is just pitiful. Very few things in game development or especially in design should be unintentional. As a designer your whole goal is to intentionally design the systems, mechanics, and dynamics to encourage a specific outcome or feeling. All design should be intentional and for a game of this scope its amazing how they can let something like this slip.
His justification didn't make much sense either. The quests tell you to kill things because there are more random things? What the fuck, did you have a stroke Todd? The quests were designed by someone, the mechanics to facilitate progression within those quests were designed, the skill tree that specifically forces combat focused characters were again, designed.
This shit is no accident.
I feel like at 3:34 Todd Howard just outright admits that Fallout 4 is a game with poor design: they were going for one thing, and they ended up getting another, completely unintentionally. Unless they just want to say their mistake was an accident. Either way it's kinda sad.
Because you are.
They developed gunplay to a tolerable level and they consider that some kind of monumental paradigm shift in emergent gaming. In developing said gunplay to be dynamic and crunchy with good feedback and scalability/utility (aka craftability), they fucked over [I]everything else[/I].
I mean... how?
They hired 60 extra people most of whom they poached from bEhavior Interactive for which they are not sorry, and by combining the existing 90 or so with said 60 they made...
Sort of sandbox shooty thing with zero reason to care about the world the sandbox is made of.
That world is [B]fucking FALLOUT[/B], the quintessential modern take on the capitalism gone horribly to 11 apocalypse.
If you told me one ES and one FO ago they'd be where they are mechanically and thematically I would have said you are an idiot.
But here I am, watching a PBR garbage fire that's supposed to be an entire genre-piece world.
Insulation is bad, that's all there is to it. It's really that simple. Insulation is a sum negative, virtually every time. BioWare, Bethesda, Gearbox... It's just bad. period.
All you're doing is fucking the people who give you money, until they no longer give you money.
[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;51432297]Fallout 4 was fantastic in my opinion. It's honestly my favorite and I feel alone.[/QUOTE]
I can understand that view point, fallout 4 honest does some things really well.
The gameplay and the world design were fucking fantastic, i love bethesda's worlds because they put in so much shit to explore, there's always something stuffed in every tiny corner. And the better combat and gunplay made it fun to fight stuff and loot shit while exploring. I like the settlements although there was way too much focus on it, and the weapon crafting stuff was neat.
But as an RPG it really fails for me, it's really watered down from the older games to the point where there's only like 2 or 3 skill checks in the entire game, the only one i can think of off the top of my head is for reparing some wires on the robot boat, the lack of dialog choices was really shitty too, i know they had to do that for the voiced character but it would have been better keeping the protaganist silent and giving us more options.
The main story was garbage but i expected that, i didn't expect all the sidequests to be garbage as well, aside from like 3 maybe? They all felt half-assed. Just checking stuff off shopping lists for NPCS and clearing out raiders.
It's got some fantastic improvements, but it also has some huge steps back. It seems like bethesda are just straying further and further away from being RPG devs and just going for straight up shooters, and that's a real damn shame, for me personally anyway.
It's fun, but it could have been so much more.
[QUOTE=madmanmad;51432379]I can understand that view point, fallout 4 honest does some things really well.
The gameplay and the [B]world design were fucking fantastic[/B], i love bethesda's worlds because they put in so much shit to explore, there's always something stuffed in every tiny corner. And the better combat and gunplay made it fun to fight stuff and loot shit while exploring. I like the settlements although there was way too much focus on it, and the weapon crafting stuff was neat.
[/QUOTE]
Don't get me started on the world design for Fallout 4. Its such utter garbage compared to Fallout New Vegas and IMO even FO3. Lack of cities, lack of logistics, lack of towns, lack of memorability, lack of authenticity, etc.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51432228]Jesus christ Todd. I'm losing some respect for him as a game designer. To say that the focus on combat was unintentional is just pitiful. Very few things in game development or especially in design should be unintentional. As a designer your whole goal is to intentionally design the systems, mechanics, and dynamics to encourage a specific outcome or feeling. All design should be intentional and for a game of this scope its amazing how they can let something like this slip.
His justification didn't make much sense either. The quests tell you to kill things because there are more random things? What the fuck, did you have a stroke Todd? The quests were designed by someone, the mechanics to facilitate progression within those quests were designed, the skill tree that specifically forces combat focused character was again, designed.
This shit is no accident.[/QUOTE]
I've always felt that he was kinda clueless. He genuinely always came across as such to me.
But yeah, Bethesda is one of the worst studios when it comes to managements. Fallout 4 is the testament to that, terribly bolted together story that stops making any sense at a certain point? Badly fleshed out, loosely connected factions? Absolutely terrible handling of RPG system (yay perk-centred sy... wait a second, it does exactly the same shit as the old system did, and even worse?..)? Yeah this game has been designed by several teams with no communication between them and it shows glaringly.
[QUOTE=madmanmad;51432379]
world design were fucking fantastic, i love bethesda's worlds because they put in so much shit to explore, there's always something stuffed in every tiny corner.[/QUOTE]
"JUST THROW AS MUCH SHIT AS POSSIBLE EVERYWHERE" is not a good worldbuilding design philosophy no matter how much you like it. It's a bit less of a garbage in Fo4 than in Fo3, but still garbage.
As a lot of people were saying soon after the game came out, if Obsidian took at crack at making a Fallout game on this version of the engine, and cut out things like the voiced protagonist and limited number of dialog choices, as well as brought back actual skills, we'd potentially have an amazing Fallout game on our hands.
Essentially, New Vegas with better gunplay, which is what a lot of people wanted from Fallout 4 anyway.
However, Bethesda decided to make the risky decisions they did just for the sake of making the game different, and while some were great, others fell insanely flat or were met with ire by the community.
At the very least, I hope the game's mixed reception at least makes Bethesda listen and actually put a lot more effort into their next game, instead of just expecting their fans to gel with whatever choices they make and be fine with the hilariously ludicrous amount of bugs and issues while expecting the community to just fix everything.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51432396]Don't get me started on the world design for Fallout 4. Its such utter garbage compared to Fallout New Vegas and IMO even FO3. Lack of cities, lack of logistics, lack of towns, lack of memorability, lack of authenticity, etc.[/QUOTE]
Actually that's one area FO4 is better in
You actually can see where people get food and water from even if that came in less than perfect forms. The world made some sense
Fallout 3 made 0 sense start to finish in that regard
I have a diary entry from I think elementary school or maybe early middle school. It was a school assignment to write about people you would like to meet.
I choose Peter Molyneux and Todd Howard. I need a time machine to go back in time and beat up my past self for being so wrong.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51432411]Actually that's one area FO4 is better in
You actually can see where people get food and water from even if that came in less than perfect forms. The world made some sense
Fallout 3 made 0 sense start to finish in that regard[/QUOTE]
My favourite thing from Fo3 is how you walk into the Citadel's central chamber, where Liberty Prime is for the first time. Facing it sideways. Fucking sideways. The dominating structure in the whole area, this huge robot, something that foreshadows the big finale - and if you're not attentive enough, you might miss it behind all the scaffoldings, struts and shit.
Just brilliant.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51432411]Actually that's one area FO4 is better in
You actually can see where people get food and water from even if that came in less than perfect forms. The world made some sense
Fallout 3 made 0 sense start to finish in that regard[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because there's totally a food and water source for Diamond City and the sprawling interesting Goodneighbor.
Just kidding, both cities lack authenticity and content compared to the more fleshed out cities of FNV and FO3. While FO3 certainly did no better in the food question department, at least the world had content and faction. Theres more to world building then literally placing trees and buildings.
[editline]26th November 2016[/editline]
[QUOTE=gudman;51432434]My favourite thing from Fo3 is how you walk into the Citadel's central chamber, where Liberty Prime is for the first time. Facing it sideways. Fucking sideways. The dominating structure in the whole area, this huge robot, something that foreshadows the big finale - and if you're not attentive enough, you might miss it behind all the scaffoldings, struts and shit.
Just brilliant.[/QUOTE]
Is this sarcasm or serious?
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51432438]Yeah, because there's totally a food and water source for Diamond City and the sprawling interesting Goodneighbor. [/QUOTE]
Well, the great green jewel at least had a 'farm' inside of it. Laughably insufficient to sustain the whole massive population of like 20 people out of which 5 are "settlers" and 7 more are "settlers with a name", but at least it sorta marked the spot. The Goodneighbor lacks even that though.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51432438]Yeah, because there's totally a food and water source for Diamond City and the sprawling interesting Goodneighbor.
Just kidding, both cities lack authenticity and content compared to the more fleshed out cities of FNV and FO3. While FO3 certainly did no better in the food question department, at least the world had content and faction. Theres more to world building then literally placing trees and buildings.
[editline]26th November 2016[/editline]
Is this sarcasm or serious?[/QUOTE]
So how did Rivet city function at any level? Diamond City made some sense
Rivet City makes fuck all
and the rest of the game? fuck all. Tenpenny tower? No sense. Megaton? No sense. Little Lamplight, no fucking sense.
You name it, that game lacked "authenticity" on that front. Sure, it's a better game, but that doesn't change that Fo4 actually did something right
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51432438]Is this sarcasm or serious?[/QUOTE]
Depends on which part...
I'll forever miss moments like stumbling upon towns like Andale and figuring out what's going on in a narrative perspective.
Hell I bought Fallout 4 despite knowing that the story was going to suck ass anyway (Why the hell do you keep getting Emil to write your games?) Obsidian's next Fallout game (because why not) is most likely going to use all of the positive aspects of Fallout 4 and make it even better with a decent story, good characters and a true 'choose your own faction' faction rpg.
i remember i immediately drew the concern from the news of the voiced protagonist that there'd be less choice and i was called paranoid
lel
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51432473]So how did Rivet city function at any level? Diamond City made some sense
Rivet City makes fuck all
and the rest of the game? fuck all. Tenpenny tower? No sense. Megaton? No sense. Little Lamplight, no fucking sense.
You name it, that game lacked "authenticity" on that front. Sure, it's a better game, but that doesn't change that Fo4 actually did something right[/QUOTE]
Just because FO3 got authenticity wrong doesnt mean FO4 got it right.
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51432600]Just because FO3 got authenticity wrong doesnt mean FO4 got it right.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but you literally said FO3 nailed that
It didn't
At any level.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51432607]Yeah but you literally said FO3 nailed that
It didn't
At any level.[/QUOTE]
No I didn't.
[quote]both cities lack authenticity and content compared to the more fleshed out cities of FNV and FO3. [/quote]
Not that Fallout 3 nailed it. I should have been more specific though. Fallout 3, again IMO, has more authentic cities due to what can be done within them. The characters and stories that are told in the cities of Fallout 3 are memorable compared to the lackluster population centers of Fallout 4.
[QUOTE=gudman;51432463]Well, the great green jewel at least had a 'farm' inside of it. Laughably insufficient to sustain the whole massive population of like 20 people out of which 5 are "settlers" and 7 more are "settlers with a name", but at least it sorta marked the spot. The Goodneighbor lacks even that though.[/QUOTE]
Scale in Bethesda games has always been off and it likely will never truly make sense. But like you said, at least they had the courtesy of adding a small farm and a water pump for Diamond City. Most settlements including the minor two person hamlets have some sort of food and water source. Goodneighbor is the exception. The whole concept of the city makes no sense. It's constantly surrounded by bandits and mutants who are fighting all the time, it has a single 1 door entrance and there would be no way or reason for people to be living there.
Fallout 4 was kind of a mess that couldn't decide what genre it wanted to be.
Like, shit. The whole settlement building side of the game just doesn't mesh with the RPG/FPS sides; it feels like it was supposed to be its own game before they shoved it in there due to feature creep
[QUOTE=MadPro119;51432632]No I didn't.
Not that Fallout 3 nailed it. I should have been more specific though. Fallout 3, again IMO, has more authentic cities due to what can be done within them. The characters and stories that are told in the cities of Fallout 3 are memorable compared to the lackluster population centers of Fallout 4.[/QUOTE]
I'm not talking about their stories though...?
whatever
Oh yeah also you've already failed at writing an enticing emotional story for your main character when you end up learning more about your spouse's murderer than you ever do about your actual spouse
[QUOTE=Smoovedawg1;51431889]I hope they never do voiced protagonist again. I hated that so much.
Anyway If they get as much of a step up from Skyrim as the did from Oblivion then we'll have something truly great.[/QUOTE]
Step up in what way? In many ways Skyrim was a step backwards, the only thing I can call a complete improvement is the art style.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51432672]I'm not talking about their stories though...?
whatever[/QUOTE]
Were talking about authenticity but we can't talk about what you are told to do and expected to do in these cities? Thats part of what makes an authentic experience, not just looking for a food source.
Funny thing with me is that with most fallout games, if it reaches that part of me that enjoyed fallout 3 the most I can look past everything wrong with it. Its kind of the same thing with STALKER, for example I played 100 hours of sZone online which is a pretty shitty STALKER look-alike of an mmo but I still played it.
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