The joys of a free market economy: Banks have been illegally manipulating derivative interest rates - Polidicks

[URL="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/10219333/US-regulators-find-evidence-of-banks-fixing-derivative-rates.html"]US regulators 'find evidence' of banks fixing derivative rates[/URL] [QUOTE]The Commodity Futures Trading Commission (CFTC) is probing 15 banks over allegations that they instructed brokers to carry out trades that would move ISDAfix, the leading benchmark rate for interest rate swaps. Pension funds and companies who invest in interest rate derivatives often deal with banks to insure against big movements in the ISDAfix rate or to speculate on changes to interest rate swaps ISDAfix is published each morning after banks submit bids for swaps via Icap, the inter-dealer broker, in a number of currencies. The CFTC has been investigating suggestions that the banks deliberately moved the rate in order to profit on these deals. Given the hundreds of trillions of dollars worth of interest rate derivatives trades that occur annually, even the slightest manipulation can have a substantial effect. The CFTC, which started to investigate ISDAfix after last summer’s Libor scandal has now been handed emails and phone call recordings that show the rate was deliberately moved, according to Bloomberg. Barclays has reportedly handed the CFTC information, while employees at Icap and Citigroup have also been questioned. In its interim results statement yesterday, Royal Bank of Scotland also said it was co-operating with authorities regarding the investigation.[/QUOTE] Do we all agree that there is a special hell waiting for these guys?

It really never ceases to amaze me how far down these people will go for money. It's like as a collective their minds operate in such a way that morales just cease to exist.

just you wait until Sobotnik sees this thread

kill..

Unsurprising developments.tiff

The free market economy is a myth anyway, a few players have gotten big enough that they can manipulate market elements like interest rates at will to enrich themselves. People need to make a choice about who they trust to manipulate the economy more: Bankers that want to raid everything and make off with as much wealth as possible, or politicians elected by the public?

I can't wait for people to get in trouble for this and a complete reform of the sy- Oh... oh wait that will never happen and they will at best get a slap on the wrist. I mean, the guys who made the largest ecological disaster in history were only fined four minutes of income, so how is this different... yay... :(

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;41712647]Bankers that want to raid everything and make off with as much wealth as possible, or politicians elected by the public?[/QUOTE] There's a difference?

Excuse me but how is that a free market if someone is controlling it?

[QUOTE=The Baconator;41712460]just you wait until Sobotnik sees this thread[/QUOTE] I'm a Keynesian though.

Why are we discussing the evil free market when.what they did was illegal, in a free market it would be legal.

[QUOTE=Killuah;41712813]Why are we discussing the evil free market when.what they did was illegal, in a free market it would be legal.[/QUOTE] Because regulation is [I]baaaaaaaaaad[/I] and we need to end the stifling effects of government regulation over self-regulating markets. (This sentiment may seem unusual to people outside the US.) [QUOTE=Silly Sil;41712694]Excuse me but how is that a free market if someone is controlling it?[/QUOTE] Are you not a free person because it's illegal to murder and steal?

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;41712854]Are you not a free person because it's illegal to murder and steal?[/QUOTE] It's not a free market if someone is controlling it. I can't make it any simpler.

A free market is one in which all are given an opportunity to prosper through competition. This sort of manipulation isn't within that definition - Especially when you're screwing people to line your pockets.

[QUOTE=archangel125;41713707]A free market is one in which all are given an opportunity to prosper through competition. This sort of manipulation isn't within that definition - Especially when you're screwing people to line your pockets.[/QUOTE] The U.S. hardly has a free market.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;41716661]I think some people in this thread are confusing manipulation with control.[/QUOTE] when the big players are backed by multiple billions of dollars and outrageous cooperative efforts such as this one, it may as well be control

[QUOTE=RichyZ;41716655]how so[/QUOTE] Because its regulated? If it was truly a free market shit like this would be perfectly fine and acceptable. The fact that the FTC exists is proof of this. Heck I just googled FTC to check I hadn't got it wrong and the first news result was about them giving [B]permission[/B] to a company to sell something, if that isn't a sign of a controlled market I don't know what is. Also if a monopoly controls a free market its not free anymore.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;41712676]There's a difference?[/QUOTE] We don't get to elect bankers, or throw them out of office when they displease us.

[QUOTE=RichyZ;41716655]how so[/QUOTE] A regulation system that clearly favors the rich and "too big to fall" companies, using taxpayer money to bail out banks, a patent system that only holds back technology as a whole, tariffs set up on things such as sugar to promote usage of HFCS, etc.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;41716661]I think some people in this thread are confusing manipulation with control.[/QUOTE] most of fp don't think that economy is a real science

[QUOTE=Jsm;41716764]Also if a monopoly controls a free market its not free anymore.[/QUOTE] Detrimental monopolies (meaning they aren't a monopoly because they are truly the best at what they do eg. Standard Oil) only exist when the government allows it or helps it along the way. Every time I ask someone to name even a single monopoly that came without clear help from the government I walk away empty handed. Honestly, this kind of derivatives market is pretty crazy. It is all but impossible for a normal person to understand. Maybe this trickiness by banks will encourage pensions to put their money in a more simple, secure asset.

[quote]Every time I ask someone to name even a single monopoly that came without clear help from the government I walk away empty handed. [/quote] more like you argue about it until you give up and then forget it was ever mentioned

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;41717444]more like you argue about it until you give up and then forget it was ever mentioned[/QUOTE] Care to either point to a time my rebuts weren't legitimate or one of your own? Usually people give the normal examples without any knowledge about how critically involved the government was.

shit like this when you fuck over shitloads of people to make yourself rich reaaalllyyy oughtta be severely punished

[IMG]http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01849/libor_1849497b.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=sgman91;41717502]Care to either point to a time my rebuts weren't legitimate or one of your own? Usually people give the normal examples without any knowledge about how critically involved the government was.[/QUOTE] I posted several monopolies that weren't caused by government interference and your argument was "well they aren't bad ENOUGH"

The free market is bullshit anyways, but not for reasons relevant to the article. Think about it, a free market isn't 'free', a firm in the market must create supply for what is demanded or else the firm will collapse, they are pretty much slaves to our wants and needs. Hardly free. [editline]6th August 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=OrDnAs;41717042]most of fp don't think that economy is a real science[/QUOTE] It is a sad thing, [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1293453&p=41608418&viewfull=1#post41608418]I posted in the science thread[/url] in General Discussion seeking debate over whether economics could be considered a science but sadly that post has been ignored.

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A free market can't exist if it's not regulated anyways. As stupid as it may sound. Give complete freedom to big corporations and they'll just lobby the shit out of everything to make sure no other small corp or the people have their say.

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