TrapWire - Voiding what little privacy we have left? - General

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/cTwPq.png[/IMG] [QUOTE]Every few seconds, data picked up at surveillance points in major cities and landmarks across the United States are recorded digitally on the spot, then encrypted and instantaneously delivered to a fortified central database center at an undisclosed location to be aggregated with other intelligence. It's part of a program called TrapWire and it's the brainchild of the Abraxas, a Northern Virginia company staffed with elite from America's intelligence community.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]This weekend, it was disclosed by WikiLeaks the details about a system known as "TrapWire" that uses facial recognition and other techniques including high-end artificial intelligence to track and monitor individuals using countless different closed-circuit cameras operated by cities and other institutions, including private businesses. This program also monitors all social media on the internet. The software is billed as a method by which to prevent terrorism, but can of course also be used to provide unprecedented surveillance and data-mining capabilities to governments and corporations - including many with a history of using new technologies to violate the rights of citizens. TrapWire is already used in New York, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, Texas, DC, London, and other locales around the USA. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]As stated above, this "monster" doesn't just have eyes that need gouging out - it also has "ears". TrapWire constantly monitors social media. In a strange twist of fate, the company that developed TrapWire also works on something called "sock-puppet" programs. These are projects designed to create thousands of fake personas on social media.[/QUOTE] Is TrapWire for good? Or is it being used to further breach our privacy? Oddly enough, after Wikileaks leaked all this information regarding TrapWire, they've been hit by one of the largest DDoS attacks to date. The website is still under attack & not accessible.. More info to follow? I just wanted to hear some of your opinions. Semi-Unrelated: I find it super eerie that the logo of Abraxis Corporation (Parent company of TrapWire Corp.) decided to use this as their logo: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/QfhDM.png[/IMG] Umbrella corporation anyone? :v: *EDIT* Sorry if my opinion seemed a bit one-sided in this post I meant to sound as neutral as possible when giving the facts, and just pitch my minor opinions.

So basically people have been treating this like a conspiracy theory when all it is, is a linked camera system based around high profile public locations owned by the government and/or private businesses who want the added security. No privacy is being invaded unless you are against cameras in public locations, such as the ones that already exist in schools, parks, intersections, and so on. There is nothing special about it other than a facial recognition system that stores the information based on a face to a serial number and then recounts if that serial number does bad stuff. If it does, the FBI investigates, and if they find out it's some random guy, they don't fucking care. I don't understand what some people are getting as "breaching privacy" or "going further than prevention" when all it is is a couple of cameras in the metro of DC and NYC and some other high profile locations. You don't have privacy in public places, and there's no such thing as "right to privacy in public locations" since we've had cameras in these places for years. The only difference is now they'll actually do some good.

As far as I care it's just more modern CCTV. I haven't read any more than you've provided in the article, but if this is only used in public places, I couldn't care less; it isn't 'privacy invading' unless you're doing private things in public. It could also easily be used for good things like tracking known violent gang members and recording robberies or murders; if it gets enough of the perpetrator's face to identify them it'll be able to track them and pick them up again weeks or months later if they happen to stroll by another camera. They could help police keep crime rates at all-time lows.

The best part is all the cameras are linked in different locations around the U.S. and even other countries. That means serial killer Joe could kill a guy in front of a camera in New York, flee to California, and buy a smoothie on the beach, and bam, found and cops are on their way immediately. [editline]12th August 2012[/editline] Also, the source of the OP in quotes is from a blog, and the third quote specifically is not in the Wikileaks. It's a boldface lie, and there is no system monitoring social media like email and Twitter, that's just some BS from the blogger, who was incredibly biased in the report as well. [editline]12th August 2012[/editline] Oh wow, that quoted Blog in the OP is sensationalist, bullshit, conspiracy theorist fuel, and just plain false. I read the actual leak as well as emails, and they said nothing about those things at all.

[QUOTE=cccritical;37207602]As far as I care it's just more modern CCTV. I haven't read any more than you've provided in the article, but if this is only used in public places, I couldn't care less; it isn't 'privacy invading' unless you're doing private things in public. It could also easily be used for good things like tracking known violent gang members and recording robberies or murders; if it gets enough of the perpetrator's face to identify them it'll be able to track them and pick them up again weeks or months later if they happen to stroll by another camera. They could help police keep crime rates at all-time lows.[/QUOTE] I agree, entirely. However, there is a stipulation and I'm pretty sure it's what people are worried about- this type of surveillance may set a precedent we don't want. Where does it stop, now? Today, we have a nationwide camera network using preexisting security cameras to track potentially serious crime. Tomorrow, it could be inching closer and closer to surveillance outside of the public eye. More importantly, there's concern that this system could lead to a new, 1984-esque watchdog culture, where even a potential threat is treated with the severity of a true one, resulting in something that can impede or even seriously harm a normal person's life.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37207663]I agree, entirely. However, there is a stipulation and I'm pretty sure it's what people are worried about- this type of surveillance may set a precedent we don't want. Where does it stop, now? Today, we have a nationwide camera network using preexisting security cameras to track potentially serious crime. Tomorrow, it could be inching closer and closer to surveillance outside of the public eye. More importantly, there's concern that this system could lead to a new, 1984-esque watchdog culture, where even a potential threat is treated with the severity of a true one, resulting in something that can impede or even seriously harm a normal person's life.[/QUOTE] Here's the issue with that domino effect theory. The UK, London specifically, has the highest number of CCTV cameras in the world, and have had those cameras for a very long amount of time, and has yet to invade people's personal freedoms on the extent many people compare with 1984. The problem is that, legally, watching public locations with security cameras, or even normal guards, has been done for decades, if not centuries if we compare a camera to an armed police officer. The only difference is that now they are just linked to a central system and eachother. It's not scary at all, and many places, like London, have similar features in their countries. The only difference is, the U.S. is trying it nationwide.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37207663]I agree, entirely. However, there is a stipulation and I'm pretty sure it's what people are worried about- this type of surveillance may set a precedent we don't want. Where does it stop, now? Today, we have a nationwide camera network using preexisting security cameras to track potentially serious crime. Tomorrow, it could be inching closer and closer to surveillance outside of the public eye. More importantly, there's concern that this system could lead to a new, 1984-esque watchdog culture, where even a potential threat is treated with the severity of a true one, resulting in something that can impede or even seriously harm a normal person's life.[/QUOTE] We've already got laws in place to prevent a slippery slope situation with these. Innocent until proven guilty, for starters, cuts a massive swath through potential violations. [editline]12th August 2012[/editline] This just sounds like they're trying to put a cop on every corner, which would be fantastic in every way. As long as these don't do anything unsavory we don't yet know about they sound like a great device that I would love to have put in around my area.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37207706]Here's the issue with that domino effect theory. England, London specifically, has the highest number of CCTV cameras in the world, and have had those cameras for a very long amount of time, and has yet to invade people's personal freedoms on the extent many people compare with 1984. The problem is that, legally, watching public locations with security cameras, or even normal guards, has been done for ages, if not centuries if we compare a camera to an armed police officer. The only difference is that now they are just linked to a central system and eachother. It's not scary at all, and many places, like London, have similar features in their countries. The only difference is, the U.S. is trying it nationwide.[/QUOTE] I'll concede that, but America is fostering a different attitude. You and I (I presume), and I dare say most of the population, refuse to allow the United States to become a police state. We oppose it, we defy it, and many would try to pursue direct action to prevent that. However, the are elements of the populace that [B]does[/B] have little of an issue with the government being an omnipresent force, if only for the security of the population. The government is a direct reflection of that, and all it takes is just the right setup in the senate and just the right administration to condone official, police-state acts. Even worse- rogue or unregulated groups within divisions such as the NSA could go out and try to establish surveillance systems on a much more intrusive level. American culture and society, as well as government structure, could allow this to happen, and that's the fear, because it's already happening with TrapWire. While it may not necessarily be a bad thing, the fact that it's implementation went without a word until the Wikileaks nightmare began is unsettling. I have no problem with TrapWire in principle, but its execution does scare me. If the data is abused, or poorly interpreted, it could be beyond dangerous.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37207763]I'll concede that, but America is fostering a different attitude. You and I (I presume), and I dare say most of the population, refuse to allow the United States to become a police state. We oppose it, we defy it, and many would try to pursue direct action to prevent that. However, the are elements of the populace that [B]does[/B] have little of an issue with the government being an omnipresent force, if only for the security of the population. The government is a direct reflection of that, and all it takes is just the right setup in the senate and just the right administration to condone official, police-state acts. Even worse- rogue or unregulated groups within divisions such as the NSA could go out and try to establish surveillance systems on a much more intrusive level. American culture and society, as well as government structure, could allow this to happen, and that's the fear, because it's already happening with TrapWire. While it may not necessarily be a bad thing, the fact that it's implementation went without a word until the Wikileaks nightmare began is unsettling.[/QUOTE] Here are some emails I have from the leak, they're also informative as to the precautions taken on this system, and why it's being implemented. In the response email, especially, you can see progress was already made on preventing a terrorist act in LA. Keeping this a secret would have prevented this progress from being made. You can't catch people in the act if they know you're watching. [code]From: "Aaron C. Pigeon" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:35:31 -0500 To: Fred Burton Subject: Re: More for the blog posted http://fredburton.posterous.com/new-surveillance-tool-for-interrupting-terror On 9/22/10 1:47 PM, Fred Burton wrote: This week, 500 surveillance cameras were activated on the NYC subway system to focus on pre-operational terrorist surveillance. The surveillance technology is also operational on high-value targets (HVTs) in DC, Las Vegas, Los Angeles and London and is called TrapWire (www.abraxasapps.com). TrapWire is one of the most innovative tools developed since 9-11 to help mitigate terrorist threats. From a protective intelligence perspective, TrapWire does have the ability to share information on suspicious events or suspects between cities. Operationally, the ability to identify hostile surveillance at one target set -- in multiple cities -- can be used to neutralize terror threats by interrupting the attack cycle. Meaning, a suspect conducting surveillance of the NYC subway can also be spotted by TrapWire conducting similar activity at the DC subway, connecting the infamous dots. An additional benefit of TrapWire is that the system can also be used to help "walk back the cat" after an attack to identify terrorist suspects and modus operandi. I can also see the tool being very effective in identifying general street crime.[/code] [code]The surveillance detection was identified by the TrapWire surveillance system. I'm getting the details on the recons and m.o. The matter is very dicey. Pls don't pass this around. Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Burton [mailto:burton@stratfor.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:33 PM To: secure@stratfor.com Subject: LA Terror Plot (not for pub - pls do not forward) According to a very good source responsible for domestic surveillance operations, an extremely serious al Qaeda terror plot has been uncovered targeting a financial institution, an entertainment center and a government office bldg in Los Angeles. The same terrorist surveillance team conducted pre-operational surveillance of all three sites. The group is currently under watch....[/code] [editline]12th August 2012[/editline] Also, there is no information stored that could be abused. It's merely a face, a serial code, and that's all. I doubt they'd go through the time and effort to connect a face and name unless they had reason. All the information accessed by this camera is already 75% public anyway, such as where you live and any other info tied to your SSN.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37207790]Here are some emails I have from the leak, they're also informative as to the precautions taken on this system, and why it's being implemented. In the response email, especially, you can see progress was already made on preventing a terrorist act in LA. Keeping this a secret would have prevented this progress from being made. You can't catch people in the act if they know you're watching. [code]From: "Aaron C. Pigeon" Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 14:35:31 -0500 To: Fred Burton Subject: Re: More for the blog posted http://fredburton.posterous.com/new-surveillance-tool-for-interrupting-terror On 9/22/10 1:47 PM, Fred Burton wrote: This week, 500 surveillance cameras were activated on the NYC subway system to focus on pre-operational terrorist surveillance. The surveillance technology is also operational on high-value targets (HVTs) in DC, Las Vegas, Los Angeles and London and is called TrapWire (www.abraxasapps.com). TrapWire is one of the most innovative tools developed since 9-11 to help mitigate terrorist threats. From a protective intelligence perspective, TrapWire does have the ability to share information on suspicious events or suspects between cities. Operationally, the ability to identify hostile surveillance at one target set -- in multiple cities -- can be used to neutralize terror threats by interrupting the attack cycle. Meaning, a suspect conducting surveillance of the NYC subway can also be spotted by TrapWire conducting similar activity at the DC subway, connecting the infamous dots. An additional benefit of TrapWire is that the system can also be used to help "walk back the cat" after an attack to identify terrorist suspects and modus operandi. I can also see the tool being very effective in identifying general street crime.[/code] [code]The surveillance detection was identified by the TrapWire surveillance system. I'm getting the details on the recons and m.o. The matter is very dicey. Pls don't pass this around. Thanks ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Fred Burton [mailto:burton@stratfor.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 8:33 PM To: secure@stratfor.com Subject: LA Terror Plot (not for pub - pls do not forward) According to a very good source responsible for domestic surveillance operations, an extremely serious al Qaeda terror plot has been uncovered targeting a financial institution, an entertainment center and a government office bldg in Los Angeles. The same terrorist surveillance team conducted pre-operational surveillance of all three sites. The group is currently under watch....[/code][/QUOTE] Perhaps, but does this reduce the likelihood of detection? The point of the system is to track patterns, and these patterns will still occur even if they know they're being watched. There's not much they can do, if TrapWire is as widespread as we're thinking. And to make it all worse, I go to the old adage of "what you don't know can't hurt you". Truly, I mean to say that it is the worst advice anybody can ever give you. What we don't know is often what screws us over. Sacrificing liberty for the sake of security violates the notion of security. Our goal is to protect America as a free society, not to implement secret systems in order to make sure it remains safe- especially if those systems can be readily abused, and I'd rather know these systems exist and that we are using them than be watched and recorded without the certainty that it's for a good cause, and that it's happening. [editline]13th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Loriborn;37207790] All the information accessed by this camera is already 75% public anyway, such as where you live and any other info tied to your SSN.[/QUOTE] Being able to track an individual across camera networks is not something you can get from their SSN. Highly useful to pinpoint bad guys, but it can just as easily be abused by groups with malintent.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37207841]Perhaps, but does this reduce the likelihood of detection? The point of the system is to track patterns, and these patterns will still occur even if they know they're being watched. There's not much they can do, if TrapWire is as widespread as we're thinking. And to make it all worse, I go to the old adage of "what you don't know can't hurt you". Truly, I mean to say that it is the worst advice anybody can ever give you. What we don't know is often what screws us over. Sacrificing liberty for the sake of security violates the notion of security. Our goal is to protect America as a free society, not to implement secret systems in order to make sure it remains safe- especially if those systems can be readily abused, and I'd rather know these systems exist and that we are using them than be watched and recorded without the certainty that it's for a good cause, and that it's happening. [editline]13th August 2012[/editline] Being able to track an individual across camera networks is not something you can get from their SSN. Highly useful to pinpoint bad guys, but it can just as easily be abused by groups with malintent.[/QUOTE] While I agree it should have been publicized, I can definitely see reasoning for wanting to keep it a secret. I don't know how it could be abused though. The only information you get from it is "where citizen #43512 was at 11:00pm." Like I said, we already have cameras in places like shops, parks, and so on, how is this different? It doesn't actively search for people, rather, just scans a face, figures out which person it is, and stores that number, location, and time. It's more complex than that, but I don't think a terrorist is going to get much use out of that information when 99% of everything listed can be found on Facebook or Twitter for most people of any interest to a terrorist. [editline]12th August 2012[/editline] Of course, the point of being secret is to prevent the "guys with malintent" from getting access to it. Can't abuse what they don't know exists.

The absolute worst possible thing I can see this being used for, in its current state, is targeted advertisement.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37207909]While I agree it should have been publicized, I can definitely see reasoning for wanting to keep it a secret. I don't know how it could be abused though. The only information you get from it is "where citizen #43512 was at 11:00pm." Like I said, we already have cameras in places like shops, parks, and so on, how is this different? It doesn't actively search for people, rather, just scans a face, figures out which person it is, and stores that number, location, and time. It's more complex than that, but I don't think a terrorist is going to get much use out of that information when 99% of everything listed can be found on Facebook or Twitter for most people of any interest to a terrorist. [editline]12th August 2012[/editline] Of course, the point of being secret is to prevent the "guys with malintent" from getting access to it. Can't abuse what they don't know exists.[/QUOTE] I'm not speaking of terrorists, to be truthful. I don't mean to sound like I'm insane, but in this instance, I am a conspiracy theorist. I'm more concerned with factions in the government using it for their own good, or lobbyists persuading them to use it. The implications for something this far reaching are large. I know there's not a lot they could do, but I'm just a little concerned with the fact that you can be tracked in a great number of places much more effectively (which, in and of itself isn't necessarily such a big problem), and that a group with interest in your movements could potentially use it against you, even if what you're doing isn't unlawful or in any way suspicious (which is a big problem).

To me it's not a big deal. It's not like they're actively watching, recording everything that people do. People get mad at things like this because they like to think that they stand out from crowds. Everyone is really just another ant in the hill, and this is used for finding the grasshoppers.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208081]and that a group with interest in your movements could potentially use it against you, even if what you're doing isn't unlawful or in any way suspicious (which is a big problem).[/QUOTE] Like I said previously, most terrorist groups don't care about Average Joe like you and I. They care about big deal people such as CEOs, Congressmen, Senators, etc, and all of those people have their location and such on the internet for easy access and are in the news very often. Against the general public, this information is pretty low-priority for any terrorist group.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37208208]Like I said previously, most terrorist groups don't care about Average Joe like you and I. They care about big deal people such as CEOs, Congressmen, Senators, etc, and all of those people have their location and such on the internet for easy access and are in the news very often. Against the general public, this information is pretty low-priority for any terrorist group.[/QUOTE] I give no shit about terrorists in the sense that I believe you're thinking about. Al-Qaeda and groups like it make statements, and they've made theirs. The likelihood of me dying in a terrorist attack, or anybody for that matter, is insignificant compared to the trivialities of a normal day. We have gotten [B]very[/B] good at dealing with terrorists the past 11 years. This tool will go another step in stopping them from making their statements in blood, ever again, and I'm all for that. I'm worried about corporate entities and corrupt elements within the United States government.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208259] I'm worried about corporate entities and corrupt elements within the United States government.[/QUOTE] Little we can do to stop them. Trapwire was built for a good purpose and it's being used for a good purpose, if someone decides to use it for a bad purpose, oh well. Bulldozers are magnificent in construction and demolition projects, but all it takes is one psycho to armor it and go on a rampage. Doesn't mean we should be afraid of bulldozers, and if we ever find ourselves looking at a killdozer, best we can do is run.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208259]I give no shit about terrorists in the sense that I believe you're thinking about. Al-Qaeda and groups like it make statements, and they've made theirs. The likelihood of me dying in a terrorist attack, or anybody for that matter, is insignificant compared to the trivialities of a normal day. We have gotten [B]very[/B] good at dealing with terrorists the past 11 years. This tool will go another step in stopping them from making their statements in blood, ever again, and I'm all for that. I'm worried about corporate entities and corrupt elements within the United States government.[/QUOTE] I don't know what Google Inc or Walmart would want with that information. Advertisements, maybe, but even that isn't malicious in nature, and Google already does that through out emails, page information, and search history. I can't think of what else it can be used for that would really be bad for Average Joe.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37208297]I don't know what Google Inc or Walmart would want with that information. Advertisements, maybe, but even that isn't malicious in nature, and Google already does that through out emails, page information, and search history. I can't think of what else it can be used for that would really be bad for Average Joe.[/QUOTE] Nor can I- at the moment. But I, under no circumstances, trust corporations in any way, shape, or form, on any level that involves the government. To that end, the fact that they can get their fingers on data from this makes me a little worried. [editline]13th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=cccritical;37208293]Little we can do to stop them. Trapwire was built for a good purpose and it's being used for a good purpose, if someone decides to use it for a bad purpose, oh well. Bulldozers are magnificent in construction and demolition projects, but all it takes is one psycho to armor it and go on a rampage. Doesn't mean we should be afraid of bulldozers, and if we ever find ourselves looking at a killdozer, best we can do is run.[/QUOTE] I can't speak for any other city on the planet, but in NYC, if a bulldozer rampage starts, the NYPD will have a round through the guy's head right quick. Depending on the neighborhood, it's entirely possible a civilian will go for the saving shot. Checks and balances, my friend.

The thing is, this is all based on assumption and presuming things to happen when they haven't. That's like saying SSN are bad because companies could use them to steal your bank account, or that driver's licenses are bad because they store your data that can be hacked into by companies for information on you. Everything anyone does is risky, but these are things that we prevent from happening, and have had no issues with in the past. This is like SSNs, Driver's Licenses, etc, it's no different, and corporations don't abuse any of that information.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208338]I can't speak for any other city on the planet, but in NYC, if a bulldozer rampage starts, the NYPD will have a round through the guy's head right quick. Depending on the neighborhood, it's entirely possible a civilian will go for the saving shot. Checks and balances, my friend.[/QUOTE] [url]http://www.damninteresting.com/the-wrath-of-the-killdozer/[/url] It's happened before, nothing they could do but wait. If this program became corrupted, it'd be an invisible killdozer with much harder armor than concrete. You can't shoot at what you can't see, if democracy will have no hand in corrupting this program then it'll have no effect on remedying it. [sub][sub][sub]you realize I was being metaphorical, right?[/sub][/sub][/sub]

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37208404]The thing is, this is all based on assumption and presuming things to happen when they haven't. That's like saying SSN are bad because companies could use them to steal your bank account, or that driver's licenses are bad because they store your data that can be hacked into by companies for information on you. Everything anyone does is risky, but these are things that we prevent from happening, and have had no issues with in the past. This is like SSNs, Driver's Licenses, etc, it's no different, and corporations don't abuse any of that information.[/QUOTE] There's no harm in expressing concerns and tempering the system against them. I am fine with TrapWire as what it is, which is an advanced surveillance and observation suite used to target and monitor patterns that are either indicative of a truly bad thing about to go down, or to monitor groups or individuals under suspicion. I'm just worried that if this tool falls into the wrong hands, the consequences could be truly dire- for all of us. [editline]13th August 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=cccritical;37208416][url]http://www.damninteresting.com/the-wrath-of-the-killdozer/[/url] It's happened before, nothing they could do but wait. If this program became corrupted, it'd be an invisible killdozer with much harder armor than concrete. You can't shoot at what you can't see, if democracy will have no hand in corrupting this program then it'll have no effect on remedying it. [sub][sub][sub]you realize I was being metaphorical, right?[/sub][/sub][/sub][/QUOTE] I do, I was just trying to respond in an equally metaphorical sense. My apologies if it has faltered.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208442]There's no harm in expressing concerns and tempering the system against them. I am fine with TrapWire as what it is, which is an advanced surveillance and observation suite used to target and monitor patterns that are either indicative of a truly bad thing about to go down, or to monitor groups or individuals under suspicion. I'm just worried that if this tool falls into the wrong hands, the consequences could be truly dire- for all of us.[/QUOTE] That can be said for just about anything ever, from cellphones, to satellite GPS, to traffic signals.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37208484]That can be said for just about anything ever, from cellphones, to satellite GPS, to traffic signals.[/QUOTE] And IS said, but cellphones, GPS and traffic signals aren't specifically designed for intelligence purposes. At least, not on a casual level.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208512]And IS said, but cellphones, GPS and traffic signals aren't specifically designed for intelligence purposes. At least, not on a casual level.[/QUOTE] I doubt anyone that can infiltrate CIA intelligence, find the location of this storage facility, and decrypt information like this, is on a "casual level" and anyone able to get a hold of this information would be more than able to use any of those other systems for abusive reasons.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37208533]I doubt anyone infiltrating CIA intelligence and decrypt information like this is on a "casual level" and anyone able to get a hold of this information would be more than able to use any of those other systems for abusive reasons.[/QUOTE] As I've said, I'm more concerned with the CIA themselves misusing it then I am with an external force. I fear the government itself being the enemy.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208544]As I've said, I'm more concerned with the CIA themselves misusing it then I am with an external force. I fear the government itself being the enemy.[/QUOTE] That hasn't happened recently, and most efforts to abuse the government have come from crazy people outside of the CIA and such, Representatives, such as Lamar Smith. These are people we elect into power, so the U.S. population is more to blame for such things than the CIA.

Whether or not firearms are illegal there will always be someone willing and capable of getting their hands on one. We couldn't stop the government from abusing Trapwire, but they've had the opportunity to track everyone for a very long time, and they could do it more accurately by several other methods. The proven good Trapwire has done and will continue to do vastly and innumerably outweighs the [i]potential[/i] bad it can do.

[QUOTE=Loriborn;37208576]That hasn't happened recently, and most efforts to abuse the government have come from crazy people outside of the CIA and such, Representatives, such as Lamar Smith. These are people we elect into power, so the U.S. population is more to blame for such things than the CIA.[/QUOTE] That doesn't make it better. Remember The Dark Knight? If you've seen it, I mean. Lucius Fox refuses to work at Wayne Industries and for Bruce while the surveillance system there was operable. This is effectively the same principle, if much less dramatic. One group with this type of information dissemination technology just feels like we're playing with fire. I'd like to reiterate that I'm all for TrapWire as we understand it, so far. I'm just saying that we need to take steps to ensure that it isn't abused, in that it truly does void the freedoms we have. Though, the fact that Wikileaks is being assaulted by what is undoubtedly the United States government as a result of the leak isn't making me any more relaxed.

[QUOTE=Arachnidus;37208626]That doesn't make it better. Remember The Dark Knight? If you've seen it, I mean. Lucius Fox refuses to work at Wayne Industries and for Bruce while the surveillance system there was operable. This is effectively the same principle, if much less dramatic. One group with this type of information dissemination technology just feels like we're playing with fire. I'd like to reiterate that I'm all for TrapWire as we understand it, so far. I'm just saying that we need to take steps to ensure that it isn't abused, in that it truly does void the freedoms we have. Though, the fact that Wikileaks is being assaulted by what is undoubtedly the United States government as a result of the leak isn't making me any more relaxed.[/QUOTE] You've got to understand that releasing this information is like telling the bad guys "hey look, a system you can try and take advantage of!" not to mention it really sets people off on conspiracy theorist trips. I'm all for telling the populace the truth about things that matter, but this is one of those things that I understand is better left a secret, because releasing it doesn't help anyone, and just hurts progress. If they [b]were[/b] watching us in our house, I would love to know, but this doesn't seem to matter to most people at all. It's the same thing with whether aliens have visited us or not, or if Mitt Romney is really a reptile. These are things that would cause so much hysteria in the general populace, that it would cause more harm than good.