[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/02/18/ukraine-crisis-stoltenberg-idUSL5N0VS2C120150218[/url]
[QUOTE]Feb 18 (Reuters) - NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg voiced concern on Wednesday about the deteriorating situation around the Ukrainian town of Debaltseve and said the refusal of pro-Russian separatists to respect a ceasefire threatened the Minsk accord.
"I'm deeply concerned by the deteriorating situation in and around Debaltseve," Stoltenberg told reporters in the Latvian capital. "The refusal of the separatists to respect the ceasefire threatens the agreement."
"I urge Russia to end its support for the separatists and to withdraw its forces and military equipment from eastern Ukraine... [/QUOTE]
Could have fooled me.
For the 1000th time.
Well that lasted all of 3 days.
I say it again; I bet the Ukrainians are kicking themselves for surrendering all those nuclear weapons to Russia after the Cold War.
[QUOTE=download;47164239]I say it again; I bet the Ukrainians are kicking themselves for surrendering all those nuclear weapons to Russia after the Cold War.[/QUOTE]
Probably, but I think it's best they don't have them now... Nobody needs the potential for a nuclear conflict.
[QUOTE=download;47164239]I say it again; I bet the Ukrainians are kicking themselves for surrendering all those nuclear weapons to Russia after the Cold War.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but I don't really need nuclear escalation of this absolute mess of a conflict already.
I can't believe the things that are happening, are actually happening.
It's ridiculous.
Russian soldiers and equiptment everywhere, Russia denies and nothing happens.
Somehow Russia however is present at the peace-negotiations. What are they doing there if they're not involved.
Russian soldiers posting on Vkontakte exposing their involvement.
Russian mothers outraged that their sons return from training dead.
I really feel like this is very dangerous.
I feel like Russia will keep reclaiming land bit by bit, and the EU/US will be powerless to do anything since if they use their militairy superiority to stop Russia, Russia just might be crazy enough to start waving around their nukes.
Deep concern
[I]Deep[/I] concern guys, clearly we're in good hands
wow i totally did not know that nato are concerned about a russian invasion of ukraine
[editline]18th February 2015[/editline]
it's an actual shame that NATO's hands are tied behind its back with scraps of paper and general inaction
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;47164395]wow i totally did not know that nato are concerned about a russian invasion of ukraine
[editline]18th February 2015[/editline]
it's an actual shame that NATO's hands are tied behind its back with scraps of paper and general inaction[/QUOTE]
NATO isn't some country. It's composed of different nations, all of which are perfectly capable of helping Ukraine. The only thing NATO members cannot do is make other NATO members participate because of the alliance.
It's stupid to say "NATO should do something" when it should be "European countries ought to do something".
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;47164395]
it's an actual shame that NATO's hands are tied behind its back with scraps of paper and general inaction[/QUOTE]
[B]N[/B]o [B]A[/B]ction, [B]T[/B]alk [B]O[/B]nly
[QUOTE=Superwafflez;47164238]Well that lasted all of 3 days.[/QUOTE]
Didn't even last 5 minutes, there was no cease fire from the rebel-terrorists
[editline]18th February 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Superwafflez;47164585][B]N[/B]o [B]A[/B]ction, [B]T[/B]alk [B]O[/B]nly[/QUOTE]
What would you have them do? Your interpretation is increadibky nieve. If NATO forces were on the front line it would basically confirm all of Putin's fears and Russia would actually ramp up this war
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;47164395]wow i totally did not know that nato are concerned about a russian invasion of ukraine
[editline]18th February 2015[/editline]
it's an actual shame that NATO's hands are tied behind its back with scraps of paper and general inaction[/QUOTE]
It's pretty much Western Europe (except the UK) being a bunch wusses, the USA won't barge in all on it's own cause the americans already know how they'll be blamed for everything once this is over by Europe, like always.
[Concerning intensifies]
[QUOTE=Emperor Scorpious II;47164420]NATO isn't some country. It's composed of different nations, all of which are perfectly capable of helping Ukraine. The only thing NATO members cannot do is make other NATO members participate because of the alliance.
It's stupid to say "NATO should do something" when it should be "European countries ought to do something".[/QUOTE]
I know. What I'm getting that is because of obligations and restrictions and treaties and conflicts of interest, no one is getting involved properly in assisting Ukraine and protecting their national sovereignty, maybe not boots on the ground 'Murica vs. Commies', but at least something, instead of making backdoor deals with Putin and drawing lines on a map.
Maybe I say NATO should do something is because it kind of is in the interest of the United States, a major NATO member and well-known global interventionist - 'World Police'.
To be honest, I'm not some foreign policy/international relations expert obviously, I don't have a great understanding of proxy warfare, but it just frustrates me to no end (as an outsider I have that privilege) that nothing is actually being done.
Sorry, emotional outburst over, I'd like to hear your opinion though on the situation.
The best time to do something for Ukraine was when Russia made its first move; that might have led to Russia backing off without any loss of life from either side. Now, any outside forces which get involved are likely to take some casualties from the "rebels", unless it's just a drone war.
What is happening in Ukraine has only proven the need for NATO, for without it, or a similar alliance, inaction will clearly rule the day regardless of how "illegal" or reprehensible another country's actions are. Even with NATO I suppose there is no guarantee that member nations will honor it should the time come, though it will light a fire.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;47164267]Yeah but I don't really need nuclear escalation of this absolute mess of a conflict already.
I can't believe the things that are happening, are actually happening.
It's ridiculous.
Russian soldiers and equiptment everywhere, Russia denies and nothing happens.
Somehow Russia however is present at the peace-negotiations. What are they doing there if they're not involved.
Russian soldiers posting on Vkontakte exposing their involvement.
Russian mothers outraged that their sons return from training dead.
I really feel like this is very dangerous.
I feel like Russia will keep reclaiming land bit by bit, and the EU/US will be powerless to do anything since if they use their militairy superiority to stop Russia, Russia just might be crazy enough to start waving around their nukes.[/QUOTE]
If the world--or rather NATO--allows the threat of nukes prevent them from protecting a member country should Russia attack, the war is already lost because when will the land grabbing stop? Once the precedent is set, there's no reason for Russia to stop. NATO cannot allow itself to be bullied into inaction by nukes if it wants to continue to exist or be taken seriously.
[QUOTE=Superwafflez;47164585][B]N[/B]o [B]A[/B]ction, [B]T[/B]alk [B]O[/B]nly[/QUOTE]
What the hell do you want them to do? Ukraine is not a NATO country. Can you be any more ignorant on this topic? When a NATO country gets attacked and none of the others will do anything, then you can say shit like that.
I'm just worried they might do something drastic like write an angry letter or call customer services.
Really though, Ukraine aren't NATO and Russia are a loose cannon so it's kind of rock and hard placey.
[QUOTE=Pr0fane;47164267]
I can't believe the things that are happening, are actually happening.
I really feel like this is very dangerous.
I feel like Russia will keep reclaiming land bit by bit, and the EU/US will be powerless to do anything since if they use their militairy superiority to stop Russia, Russia just might be crazy enough to start waving around their nukes.[/QUOTE]
I'm starting to get that "appeasing Hitler" vibe again.
[QUOTE=adamsz;47166530]I'm starting to get that "appeasing Hitler" vibe again.[/QUOTE]
Me too.
Not like "Oh he's going to murder 6 million jews" but as in Putin and Hitler both displayed the same goddamn behaviour right before they went nuts and excerted militairy aggression.
Holy shit guys you bite easily. I was just referring to the general state of affairs with NATOs hands being tied when they could be used.
[QUOTE=Hamsteronfire;47165703]I know. What I'm getting that is because of obligations and restrictions and treaties and conflicts of interest, no one is getting involved properly in assisting Ukraine and protecting their national sovereignty, maybe not boots on the ground 'Murica vs. Commies', but at least something, instead of making backdoor deals with Putin and drawing lines on a map.
Maybe I say NATO should do something is because it kind of is in the interest of the United States, a major NATO member and well-known global interventionist - 'World Police'.
To be honest, I'm not some foreign policy/international relations expert obviously, I don't have a great understanding of proxy warfare, but it just frustrates me to no end (as an outsider I have that privilege) that nothing is actually being done.
Sorry, emotional outburst over, I'd like to hear your opinion though on the situation.[/QUOTE]
I don't think you quite understand why "NATO should do something" doesn't make sense as a sentence.
NATO isn't a country. It doesn't have a ruling government. It cannot decide on it's own to intervene with a conflict or make others do so.
It's an alliance, a collection of nations willing to take up arms together to defend each other. NATO only works through the governments of these countries willing to honor the treaty with each other. The US can't decide on its own, "Okay NATO members, strike here because I say" nor can any other country.
Besides that, the US does not 'own' NATO, even if it's the alliance's biggest supporter both politically and militarily. All the other countries have just as much say in the issue as the US does; America's vote weighs no more or less than any other participant's vote in NATO affairs.
On top of all that, the main purpose of NATO is to [I]defend its [B]participants[/B][/I] in the organization - of which Ukraine is [I]not[/I]. NATO, as an alliance, has no affairs with protecting Ukraine, though its member nations can (and probably really should) act independently of the organization to help out Ukraine.
I think we already figured this out NATO.
Also wait until Karimatrix disproves that Russia has nothing to do with this and Ukraine is the bad guy.
[QUOTE=Swineflu;47165600]It's pretty much Western Europe (except the UK) being a bunch wusses, the USA won't barge in all on it's own cause the americans already know how they'll be blamed for everything once this is over by Europe, like always.[/QUOTE]
i'm pretty sure there are countries that could do something but they'd need a reason for it, as it's not directly harming them, and i think we've grown out of the 'we're doing this because it hurts security of xxx as a whole'.
the Ukrainian military has killed quite a few civilians in collateral damage but it still doesn't change that Russia came to their land, and started killing their people.
mein fuhrer putin
[QUOTE=Slim Charles;47168649]the Ukrainian military has killed quite a few civilians in collateral damage but it still doesn't change that Russia came to their land, and started killing their people.[/QUOTE]
I've never heard of a military in a war that didn't kill civilians, tbh.
To put it simple, we know Russia is there, we've seen all of the evidence. We knew Russia was involved all along. Things that don't really help however is claims Ukraine makes about certain numbers of vehicles, etc entering the country. Ukraine seems to be sensationalizing an already tense situation. Russia is involved, militarily, and continues to help by providing offensive weapons and support. Russia is winning the propaganda war, as evidenced by certain FP users, or just the general fact that any proof shown on Youtube, twitter, or other social media is downvoted, reported, or spammed by legions of pissed off Russians. Another thing that doesn't help is, is the fact a nice portion of western nations have people who have an honest distrust in the media, and turn to alternative media or sources like Russia today. To put this all bluntly, shit is all fucked up. We want to give Ukraine military aid, only issues being that as shown with pretty much every other time we did so, that aid sometimes ends up on the wrong side of the fight. Russia could easily just supply the rebels with better tanks and better weapons. This is about to turn into a proxy war between the West and Russia, as we both give our proxies increasingly more advanced weapons, just like the Cold War days. We'll both throw around strong words, have some standoffs, and in the end one side will collapse. Also, I want to throw in, both sides have killed civilians. War is hell, civilians die, sad fact of life.
Concerned, but we will not help Ukraine to build own army to defend own country ...
sigh ... just trash talk... same as in 1938 ... Germany is only wanting "small piece of CSR"
now tell me, why largest country on Earth (yes it's Russia) want more land and control ?
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