Lib Dems win Eastleigh by-election as UKIP come second - Polidicks

[t]http://imgkk.com/i/uozs.jpg[/t] [t]http://imgkk.com/i/1x18.jpg[/t] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21625726[/url] [quote][B]The top five candidates[/B] • Mike Thornton (Liberal Democrat) 13,342 • Diane James (UKIP) 11,571 • Maria Hutchings (Conservative) 10,559 • John O'Farrell (Labour) 4,088 • Danny Stupple (Independent) 768[/quote] [quote]The Liberal Democrats have won the Eastleigh by-election, with the UK Independence Party pushing the Conservatives into third place. Leader Nick Clegg said the party's candidate Mike Thornton had pulled off a "stunning victory" which had been secured "against the odds". UKIP leader Nigel Farage said its best-ever performance in a Westminster poll showed it had "connected with voters".[/quote]

And the Tories are going to be pissed at Cameron due to UKIP coming second

Why is UKIP getting support? I thought we established them to be BNP-lite? [QUOTE=Indyclone77;39759298]And the Tories are going to be pissed at Cameron due to UKIP coming second[/QUOTE] Wouldn't you be upset if you came third to UKIP?

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[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;39759299]Why is UKIP getting support? I thought we established them to be BNP-lite? Wouldn't you be upset if you came third to UKIP?[/QUOTE] They are the current protest party. Or more accurately, they are the protest party in a lib dem stronghold.

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;39759299]Why is UKIP getting support? I thought we established them to be BNP-lite?[/QUOTE]They're the go-to party for people who hate the EU but don't understand why, and those who aren't racist, but _______.

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;39759299]Why is UKIP getting support? I thought we established them to be BNP-lite? Wouldn't you be upset if you came third to UKIP?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Sgt Doom;39759471]They're the go-to party for people who hate the EU but don't understand why, and those who aren't racist, but _______.[/QUOTE] So you're both stereotyping UKIP supporters by their political beliefs to be stupid and racist - is that not akin to racism? This is good news for British Politics, regardless of whether you are a UKIP supporter or not, people need to be encouraged to vote for smaller parties that truly reflect their views and not just settle for LibLabCon - the fact that a party with a blatant liar for a leader, whose out-going MP is being jailed and has sexual assault cover ups left, right and centre can hold a seat in a by-election just shows the desperate need for a shake up in British Politics. Edit: Also in regard to your anti-Eurosceptic comment, hot off the press: [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21627623]Eurozone unemployment reaches 11.9%[/url] and I've been trying to find this for ages, [sp]biased[/sp]opinion poll on the EU ran by the EU [url=http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb78/eb78_anx_en.pdf]here[/url] - very interesting

[QUOTE=butt2089;39759685]the fact that a party with a blatant liar for a leader[/QUOTE] You mean all of them? There isn't a single party with a half decent leader. [QUOTE=butt2089;39759685]whose out-going MP is being jailed and has sexual assault cover ups left, right and centre[/QUOTE] There is no known implication that the party covered it up, nor even if they did that the standing MP has anything to do with it. So that's a moot point. If you're a centre or centre-left leaning voter there is no other party to vote for. Lab/lib/con/ukip are all centre-right/right parties. There is a difference in voting for an up-and-coming party like UKiP as they have a lot of former conservative support, but the Greens? The Beer & Baccy Party? Sure, vote for them if you like being able to fit every voter in a phonebox. I wanted a real change such as proportional representation - but no party offered it.

[QUOTE=butt2089;39759685]So you're both stereotyping UKIP supporters by their political beliefs to be stupid and racist - is that not akin to racism? This is good news for British Politics, regardless of whether you are a UKIP supporter or not, people need to be encouraged to vote for smaller parties that truly reflect their views and not just settle for LibLabCon - the fact that a party with a blatant liar for a leader, whose out-going MP is being jailed and has sexual assault cover ups left, right and centre can hold a seat in a by-election just shows the desperate need for a shake up in British Politics. Edit: Also in regard to your anti-Eurosceptic comment, hot off the press: [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21627623"]Eurozone unemployment reaches 11.9%[/URL] and I've been trying to find this for ages, [sp]biased[/sp]opinion poll on the EU ran by the EU [URL="http://ec.europa.eu/public_opinion/archives/eb/eb78/eb78_anx_en.pdf"]here[/URL] - very interesting[/QUOTE] Oh without doubt it's good that one of the smaller parties are getting votes, but it's important that one doesn't vote for a small party simply because they're a smaller party. The general membership of UKIP is racist, homophobic and generally makes the sort of comments one would expect from the BNP - their member's forum on their website proves that. Whether or not the party's polices are racist themselves is irrelevant, at least for the purposes of this discussion. Their members and supporters aren't part of UKIP for their views on taxation. Incidentally, making a judgement on a group of people, while admittedly a bit immature, cannot be considered equal to racism. That's not what racism is.

[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;39759471]They're the go-to party for people who hate the EU but don't understand why, and those who aren't racist, but _______.[/QUOTE] People always seem to bring this up in threads but I have never understood it...? I'm open and on the fence even after 3 years of trying to make sense of the rubbish that is UK politics, I have read through the UKIP site and manifesto and I don't understand why they are considered racist, and I thought some of their ideas sounded reasonable? I have also tried a lot to research leaving the EU vs staying but there really is no definitive answer, all I can find is endless arguments and counter arguments so its hard to know what to believe. If someone could explain to me how UKIP is racist/homophobic and why leaving the EU would be a terrible terrible thing to do, either here or via PM, I would really appreciate it, because I havent been able to find anything to support the claims (More so the former) I talked about it with a friend recently and decided that the next time UKIP is brought up in a Facepunch thread I would try to get more informed on why people seem to hate them so much.

It's scary a UKIP loony beats both the tories and labour.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;39760064]It's scary a UKIP loony beats both the tories and labour.[/QUOTE] Then again, it is a small lib-dem stronghold which isn't exactly the norm. But this proves the conservatives are not going to win the next election. At this rate it'll be a labour coalition.

[QUOTE=Cushie;39760056]People always seem to bring this up in threads but I have never understood it...? I'm open and on the fence even after 3 years of trying to make sense of the rubbish that is UK politics, I have read through the UKIP site and manifesto and I don't understand why they are considered racist, and I thought some of their ideas sounded reasonable? I have also tried a lot to research leaving the EU vs staying but there really is no definitive answer, all I can find is endless arguments and counter arguments so its hard to know what to believe. If someone could explain to me how UKIP is racist/homophobic and why leaving the EU would be a terrible terrible thing to do, either here or via PM, I would really appreciate it, because I havent been able to find anything to support the claims (More so the former)[/QUOTE] The claims of racism generally come from their view that the 'doctrine of multiculturalism' is failing. UKIP believes that different cultures should not integrate; they see the legislation we have to ensure that minorities have an equal opportunity in the workplace as 'politically correct' and harmful. They would also cut down the amount of asylum seekers we allow into the country, placing those that are allowed in into 'safe and humane centres' - that alone is enough to give me pause for thought.

[QUOTE=Cushie;39760056] If someone could explain to me how UKIP is racist/homophobic and why leaving the EU would be a terrible terrible thing to do, either here or via PM, I would really appreciate it, because I havent been able to find anything to support the claims (More so the former)[/QUOTE] Here you go: [url]http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/2863-ukip-response-to-the-governments-consultation-on-samesex-marriage[/url] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20830201[/url] Even Norway which is the European trading model the UKIP wants to try and copy thinks we're better off in the EU.

Liberal democrat sounds kinda redundant

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;39760104]The claims of racism generally come from their view that the 'doctrine of multiculturalism' is failing. [b]UKIP believes that different cultures should not integrate;[/b] they see the legislation we have to ensure that minorities have an equal opportunity in the workplace as 'politically correct' and harmful. They would also cut down the amount of asylum seekers we allow into the country, placing those that are allowed in into 'safe and humane centres' - that alone is enough to give me pause for thought.[/QUOTE] This is literally the biggest lie I have ever read about UKIP. Their dislike of multiculturalism centers around the fact that if too many people come at once then it is impossible for integration to happen. UKIP want people from all races and religions to be able to come together and form a single British culture so that integration can happen fast and easily. They don't want to bludgeon others into the current British culture, they want to form a new British culture which has elements from all these people's cultures. I don't really see how they oppose integration if this is their policy, all centered around integration. [QUOTE=tdnoob;39760198]Here you go: [url]http://www.ukip.org/content/ukip-policies/2863-ukip-response-to-the-governments-consultation-on-samesex-marriage[/url] [url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20830201[/url] Even Norway which is the European trading model the UKIP wants to try and copy thinks we're better off in the EU.[/QUOTE] Why is opposing gay marriage homophobic? I'm homosexual myself and oppose forcing gay marriage onto other religions, I don't really think I'm homophobic? The whole UKIP arguement about Gay Marriage is that Cameron's plans will force religions that do not believe it is right for two men or two women to marry into a position where they have to do it. Marriage is a religious ceremony, not a civil ceremony so it should be up to each individual religion if they want to do it or not. If they don't want to Catholics shouldn't have to and if Quakers want to then they should be allowed to. About Civil Ceremonies, Civil Partnerships between two men or two women are already legal so in the eyes of the law a gay couple can already be equal to a straight couple. This whole arguement is purely about religion, I'm an atheist myself so maybe I don't understand the whole reason for wanting to get married rather than just a Civil Partnership. Even if I was, why would I even want to get married in a catholic church where it's more than likely the priest hates me for being gay? I would much rather get married in a Quaker church where I know the priest is thinking of me as if I was just another couple.

[QUOTE=MrEndangered;39760038]You mean all of them? There isn't a single party with a half decent leader. There is no known implication that the party covered it up, nor even if they did that the standing MP has anything to do with it. So that's a moot point. If you're a centre or centre-left leaning voter there is no other party to vote for. Lab/lib/con/ukip are all centre-right/right parties. There is a difference in voting for an up-and-coming party like UKiP as they have a lot of former conservative support, but the Greens? The Beer & Baccy Party? Sure, vote for them if you like being able to fit every voter in a phonebox. I wanted a real change such as proportional representation - but no party offered it.[/QUOTE] Ironically, the Greens actually have an MP, unlike UKIP, and it's probably going to be the case that, like disenfranchised conservatives vote UKIP, disenfranchised Labour voters will vote Green (Hell, I'm planning to unless Labour really bucks it's ideas up).

[QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;39760104] They would also cut down the amount of asylum seekers we allow into the country, placing those that are allowed in into 'safe and humane centres' - that alone is enough to give me pause for thought.[/QUOTE] "Please take off those dirty clothes and step into the shower"

[QUOTE=Scrappa;39760244] Why is opposing gay marriage homophobic? I'm homosexual myself and oppose forcing gay marriage onto other religions, I don't really think I'm homophobic? The whole UKIP arguement about Gay Marriage is that Cameron's plans will force religions that do not believe it is right for two men or two women to marry into a position where they have to do it. Marriage is a religious ceremony, not a civil ceremony so it should be up to each individual religion if they want to do it or not. If they don't want to Catholics shouldn't have to and if Quakers want to then they should be allowed to. About Civil Ceremonies, Civil Partnerships between two men or two women are already legal so in the eyes of the law a gay couple can already be equal to a straight couple. This whole arguement is purely about religion, I'm an atheist myself so maybe I don't understand the whole reason for wanting to get married rather than just a Civil Partnership. Even if I was, why would I even want to get married in a catholic church where it's more than likely the priest hates me for being gay? I would much rather get married in a Quaker church where I know the priest is thinking of me as if I was just another couple.[/QUOTE] First of all if you knew anything about the conservative gay marriage proposal you would know they aren't forcing it on religious institutions. In all honestly any religious institution that receives tax exemption status from the state, should be forced to follow state equality laws or lose their tax exemption status. The state and church aren't separated in the UK and therefore should be treated like any other government institution.

The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that if same-sex marriage is legal then same-sex couples must have the same rights when it comes to marriage as opposite-sex couples. This means that if an opposite-sex couple can get married in a Catholic church a same-sex couple has to be able to get marriage in a Catholic church also. Even if Cameron doesn't want to force it upon all the different parts of Christianity, which I don't think he does, he has been told he has to.

[QUOTE=MrEndangered;39760038]You mean all of them? There isn't a single party with a half decent leader. There is no known implication that the party covered it up, nor even if they did that the standing MP has anything to do with it. So that's a moot point. If you're a centre or centre-left leaning voter there is no other party to vote for. Lab/lib/con/ukip are all centre-right/right parties. There is a difference in voting for an up-and-coming party like UKiP as they have a lot of former conservative support, but the Greens? The Beer & Baccy Party? Sure, vote for them if you like being able to fit every voter in a phonebox. I wanted a real change such as proportional representation - but no party offered it.[/QUOTE] I would say Nick Clegg denying any knowledge of the scandal before it then being revealed that he knew about it 5 years ago is a bit of a cover up? And once again you're not addressing my posts properly - it was a separate point; Chris Huhne is going to prison, Lord Rennard is accused of sexual harassment. Also UKIP is drawing support from all three main political parties, just look at Eastleigh and Rotherham, Lib Dem and Labour strongholds. [QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;39760053]Oh without doubt it's good that one of the smaller parties are getting votes, but it's important that one doesn't vote for a small party simply because they're a smaller party. The general membership of UKIP is racist, homophobic and generally makes the sort of comments one would expect from the BNP - their member's forum on their website proves that. Whether or not the party's polices are racist themselves is irrelevant, at least for the purposes of this discussion. Their members and supporters aren't part of UKIP for their views on taxation. Incidentally, making a judgement on a group of people, while admittedly a bit immature, cannot be considered equal to racism. That's not what racism is.[/QUOTE] My point wasn't that voting for smaller parties because they're small is good, it's about encouraging people to vote for parties that reflects their views best - not voting because they're afraid that if they don't vote Labour that the Conservatives will get in and vice-versa. How can you prove your assertion that UKIP is racist, homophobic and similar to the BNP? How does their member's forum prove it? You're stereotyping again, that's what racism is but just on a different basis. People may well be members and supporters of UKIP for their views on taxation, how do you know? You've just pulled your views out of your ass, as proven by your next post: [QUOTE=Dr. Ethan Asia;39760104]The claims of racism generally come from their view that the 'doctrine of multiculturalism' is failing. UKIP believes that different cultures should not integrate; they see the legislation we have to ensure that minorities have an equal opportunity in the workplace as 'politically correct' and harmful. They would also cut down the amount of asylum seekers we allow into the country, placing those that are allowed in into 'safe and humane centres' - that alone is enough to give me pause for thought.[/QUOTE] Sorry, where is your proof that UKIP believes that different cultures should not integrate? And besides, 'multiculturalism' is divisive, even Ed Miliband, of all people, admitted that a hell of a lot of immigrants had not integrated with society - how do you expect a woman from Pakistan to integrate when she wears a Burqa and can't speak English? But who cares, support multiculturalism or your a racist bigot. Introducing schemes to help people from ethnic backgrounds in to opportunities is bound to fuel racism and not help get rid of it - think, if someone is opposed to ethnic people and they see that they're being given hand outs and help all the time it's only going to compound their views, the road to crushing racism is by changing attitudes not just helping out ethnic minorities.

[QUOTE=Scrappa;39760386]The European Court of Human Rights has ruled that if same-sex marriage is legal then same-sex couples must have the same rights when it comes to marriage as opposite-sex couples. This means that if an opposite-sex couple can get married in a Catholic church a same-sex couple has to be able to get marriage in a Catholic church also. Even if Cameron doesn't want to force it upon all the different parts of Christianity, which I don't think he does, he has been told he has to.[/QUOTE]That's bullshit. I distinctly remember explaining this precise point before to you. The [I]only[/I] person who said this was a British lawyer [I]who made no mention of EU law.[/I] [URL]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1231538&p=38776455&viewfull=1#post38776455[/URL] You can read the guy's site at [url]http://www.religionlaw.co.uk/[/url] and see for yourself he makes no mention of EU law meaning that churches in the UK would be forced to perform gay marriages if they were legalised. Though since you didn't read it then, I doubt you'll be bothered to read it now.

I'm still not really convinced. So they have one particular view that is disagreed with, cant you say that about every party? Why shouldn't the general populace have more of a say on the specific policies they think should be applied but not the ones they disagree with? The main reason I hate our system is because you are forced to take the bad with the good. Back on track, I still don't get the racist part; they believe that there should be tighter control on immigration into the country, more time to gain citizenship and removing people living here illegally more aggressively? I also read that the reason they oppose gay marriage is because the current system works legally and that there will be disputes rising because of clergy refusing to marry gay couples on religious grounds.

[QUOTE=butt2089;39760428]How can you prove your assertion that UKIP is racist, homophobic and similar to the BNP?[/QUOTE] Umm this is awkward. You realise the Party founder, and previous leader before Farage [I]publicly[/I] quit his own party because he said it became the beacon for the far right racists and attracted that type of voters. He also said Farage was a colossal racist behind closed doors and still referred to black people as niggers and 'nig nogs'. Not every UKIP voter is a racist, but its their target audience. They're just dumb populists.

[url=http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence]UKIP literally have no platform, all their policies are a bunch of crowd-pleasers.[/url] Basically it's the party designed for the people who read the daily mail and agree with everything in it, as opposed to the BNP who read the daily mail and say 'that doesn't go quite far enough'. [editline]1st March 2013[/editline] they also hate women and gay people [editline]1st March 2013[/editline] I was up really late for no particular reason and decided on a whim to watch the result live, there's the three normal candidates, the ukip candidates and the other runners who are 90% mentals, it;s adorable. I did like Howling Laud Hope of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party trying to get a word in the mic during the libdem guy's acceptance speech. [img]http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/sbres/761.$plit/C_67_article_2054238_body_articleblock_0_bodyimage.jpg?15%2F07%2F2009%2015%3A08%3A47%3A288[/img] [editline]1st March 2013[/editline] I'd totally vote for the Beer, Baccy and Crumpet party though.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;39760482]Umm this is awkward. You realise the Party founder, and previous leader before Farage [I]publicly[/I] quit his own party because he said it became the beacon for the far right racists and attracted that type of voters. He also said Farage was a colossal racist behind closed doors and still referred to black people as niggers and 'nig nogs'. Not every UKIP voter is a racist, but its their target audience. They're just dumb populists.[/QUOTE] Umm this is awkward. That was back in 1997.. He also said that UKIP would be nothing but a fringe party, seems he was rather wrong. Regardless of what Farage might have in private said over 15 years ago according to one guy you can't damn all UKIP voters to being racists. Anyway, if we're going to stretch back as far as 1997, what else can we find? Hmm,*"Miliband was appointed as a*special adviser*to Chancellor*Gordon Brown*from 1997 to 2002.", would this be the same 1997 - 2002 period that Gordon Brown de-regulated the banks and sold off most of our gold at rock bottom prices? Seems PPE graduate Ed Miliband is still doing okay, polling ~40% each week. [QUOTE=Generic.Monk;39760526][url=http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/02/ukip-party-bigots-lets-look-evidence]UKIP literally have no platform, all their policies are a bunch of crowd-pleasers.[/url] Basically it's the party designed for the people who read the daily mail and agree with everything in it, as opposed to the BNP who read the daily mail and say 'that doesn't go quite far enough'. [editline]1st March 2013[/editline] they also hate women and gay people [editline]1st March 2013[/editline] I was up really late for no particular reason and decided on a whim to watch the result live, there's the three normal candidates, the ukip candidates and the other runners who are 90% mentals, it;s adorable. I did like Howling Laud Hope of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party trying to get a word in the mic during the libdem guy's acceptance speech. [img]http://m.gmgrd.co.uk/sbres/761.$plit/C_67_article_2054238_body_articleblock_0_bodyimage.jpg?15%2F07%2F2009%2015%3A08%3A47%3A288[/img] [editline]1st March 2013[/editline] I'd totally vote for the Beer, Baccy and Crumpet party though.[/QUOTE] Crowd-pleasing policies? Right, because the purpose of political parties in a democracy is to do stuff that the people don't want..

[QUOTE=butt2089;39760608]Umm this is awkward. That was back in 1997.. He also said that UKIP would be nothing but a fringe party, seems he was rather wrong. Regardless of what Farage might have in private said over 15 years ago according to one guy you can't damn all UKIP voters to being racists. [/QUOTE] they appeal to people who don't have a huge knowledge of politics and have that archetypal 'daily mail' viewpoint on current affairs - they're dangerous

[QUOTE=Generic.Monk;39760626]they appeal to people who don't have a huge knowledge of politics and have that archetypal 'daily mail' viewpoint on current affairs - they're dangerous[/QUOTE] Are you saying that we should ignore their views as irrelevant because they don't have a 'huge knowledge of politics'? I think that would apply to most of the electorate. Also, what is a 'daily mail' viewpoint?

[QUOTE=butt2089;39760608]He also said that UKIP would be nothing but a fringe party[/quote] He's right. I'm sorry but UKIP is never going to be successful. It's just simple demagogue that just doesn't go down well in Britain. Regardless of what tiny seats they can win here and there. They're ultimately self-defeating as well, they're a glorified protest party and even better for us, they're probably going to drag the tories down with them when they squabble over right wing voters leaving them both with nothing. I think this sums it up pretty well: [url]http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21567096-chaotic-undisciplinedand-exceedingly-dangerous-tories-farage-farrago[/url] Its like the old BNP ~scare~ a couple years ago, now they're returned to their place as a badly ran, failed joke party.

[QUOTE=NoDachi;39760741]He's right. I'm sorry but UKIP is never going to be successful. It's just simple demagogue that just doesn't go down well in Britain. Regardless of what tiny seats they can win here and there. They're ultimately self-defeating as well, they're a glorified protest party and even better for us, they're probably going to drag the tories down with them when they squabble over right wing voters leaving them both with nothing. I think this sums it up pretty well: [url]http://www.economist.com/news/britain/21567096-chaotic-undisciplinedand-exceedingly-dangerous-tories-farage-farrago[/url] Its like the old BNP ~scare~ a couple years ago, now they're returned to their place as a badly ran, failed joke party.[/QUOTE] Except the BNP never got a string of high by-election results like UKIP has. The strangest thing about UKIP is that it doesn't just appeal to conservatives, it has drawn voters from all three major parties. And if your claims that they're badly run and undisciplined are true then it's even more worrying for all the political parties as there is the scope for them to become organised and take on even more support.