For first time in history, vegetative patient able to tell doctors he is not in pain
38 replies, posted
[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-20268044[/url]
[quote=BBC News][B]A Canadian man who was believed to have been in a vegetative state for more than a decade, has been able to tell scientists that he is not in any pain.[/B]
It's the first time an uncommunicative, severely brain-injured patient has been able to give answers clinically relevant to their care.
Scott Routley, 39, was asked questions while having his brain activity scanned in an fMRI machine.
His doctor says the discovery means medical textbooks will need rewriting.
Vegetative patients emerge from a coma into a condition where they have periods awake, with their eyes open, but have no perception of themselves or the outside world.
Mr Routley suffered a severe brain injury in a car accident 12 years ago.
None of his physical assessments since then have shown any sign of awareness, or ability to communicate.
But the British neuroscientist Prof Adrian Owen - who led the team at the Brain and Mind Institute, University of Western Ontario - said Mr Routley was clearly not vegetative.
"Scott has been able to show he has a conscious, thinking mind. We have scanned him several times and his pattern of brain activity shows he is clearly choosing to answer our questions. We believe he knows who and where he is."
Prof Owen said it was a groundbreaking moment.
"Asking a patient something important to them has been our aim for many years. In future we could ask what we could do to improve their quality of life. It could be simple things like the entertainment we provide or the times of day they are washed and fed."
Scott Routley's parents say they always thought he was conscious and could communicate by lifting a thumb or moving his eyes. But this has never been accepted by medical staff.
Prof Bryan Young at University Hospital, London - Mr Routley's neurologist for a decade - said the scan results overturned all the behavioural assessments that had been made over the years.
"I was impressed and amazed that he was able to show these cognitive responses. He had the clinical picture of a typical vegetative patient and showed no spontaneous movements that looked meaningful."
Observational assessments of Mr Routley since he responded in the scanner have continued to suggest he is vegetative. Prof Young said medical textbooks would need to be updated to include Prof Owen's techniques.
The BBC's Panorama programme followed several vegetative and minimally-conscious patients in Britain and Canada for more than a year.
Another Canadian patient, Steven Graham, was able to demonstrate that he had laid down new memories since his brain injury. Mr Graham answers yes when asked whether his sister has a daughter. His niece was born after his car accident five years ago.
The Panorama team also followed three patients at the Royal Hospital for Neuro-disability (RHN) in Putney, which specialises in the rehabilitation of brain-injured patients.
It collaborates with a team of Cambridge University neuroscientists at the Wolfson Brain Imaging Centre at Addenbrooke's hospital, Cambridge.
One of the patients is diagnosed as vegetative by the RHN, and he is also unable to show awareness in an fMRI machine.
A second patient, who was not able to be fully assessed by the RHN because of repeated sickness, is later shown to have some limited awareness in brain scans.
The Mind Reader: Unlocking My Voice - a Panorama Special - will be broadcast on Tuesday, 13 November, at 22:35 on BBC One. It wil be on BBC World News on Saturday, 17 November, at 09:10 GMT and on Sunday, 18 November at 02:10 & 15:10 GMT.[/quote]
There's a video of the procedure in the link
This makes comas even more scary
That's amazing but I can't help but feel awful that the guy has been conscious for 12 years locked inside his body.
[QUOTE=E1025;38440190]That's amazing but I can't help but feel awful that the guy has been conscious for 12 years locked inside his body.[/QUOTE]
You'd probably develop an imaginary world, your brain needs stimulus it makes up things to fill the void
Jesus fuck this reinforces being in a coma/locked up inside my own body as my biggest fear.
[QUOTE=The Un-Men;38440393]Jesus fuck this reinforces being in a coma/locked up inside my own body as my biggest fear.[/QUOTE]
I think it might actually be quite fun after about a year or so
maybe not a year maybe less
imagination is strong stuff
Well at least this shouldn't happen any more.
Basically, the video shows how they instruct the man to imagine that he's playing tennis ONLY if the answer to a certain question is no.
Playing tennis creates a certain brain map, and when they asked him if he was in any pain (the question at hand), his brain activity matched that of when he imagined playing tennis.
so really, it was an indirect no, but at least one that the man understood that if he imagined playing tennis, it would accurately answer the question.
...how precisely are they reading an fmri to procure answers to questions?
[editline]13th November 2012[/editline]
OH WELP
Wouldn't being in a thinking coma for 12 years be kinda like the equivalent of 12 years of growing insane due to lack of contact? Dont people start going nuts if they're left without any outside interaction for long periods of time?
I would never want to be forced to live in a vegetative state.
[QUOTE=E1025;38440190]That's amazing but I can't help but feel awful that the guy has been conscious for 12 years locked inside his body.[/QUOTE]
It's possible that hes not exactly conscious as you understand it. His subconscious is still working but his "awareness", like what you feel to be "you" is not working. Subconsciousness is like another person living inside of you (I even read somewhere that it can have some kind of personality that differs from your conscious personality). They probably could see if he was "in mental pain" for being locked inside his body using the same MRI scan.
It's even possible that he's actually enjoying it. Subconsciousness has no trouble spending time while you sleep for 12 hours either.
[QUOTE=papaya;38440406]I think it might actually be quite fun after about a year or so
maybe not a year maybe less
imagination is strong stuff[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I'd imagine LSD etc would still have some kind of effect too if you had a friendly family member or a compassionate dealer :P
[QUOTE=The Un-Men;38440393]Jesus fuck this reinforces being in a coma/locked up inside my own body as my biggest fear.[/QUOTE]
Think about not even being able to answer questions with your brainwaves, in a lot of recent cases it turns out these people just want to die but nobody ever knew so they just were in their body for years living out a dull life.
This whole article reminds me of Harlans Ellisons i have no mouth and i must scream...
[QUOTE=Tea Guy;38440627]I would never want to be forced to live in a vegetative state.[/QUOTE]
Don't worry...nobody's going to force you to live in Florida.
[QUOTE=Angua;38441138]This whole article reminds me of Harlans Ellisons i have no mouth and i must scream...[/QUOTE]
oh [B][I]GOD[/I][/B]
After a while I bet you'd just enter a state of semi-permanent dreaming. That could turn into lucidity, and then blammo im flying
[QUOTE=papaya;38440406]I think it might actually be quite fun after about a year or so
maybe not a year maybe less
imagination is strong stuff[/QUOTE]
Imagination is one hell of a drug!
But this is late, science knew this a year ago.
[QUOTE=DinoJesus;38440546]Wouldn't being in a thinking coma for 12 years be kinda like the equivalent of 12 years of growing insane due to lack of contact? Dont people start going nuts if they're left without any outside interaction for long periods of time?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say 'insane'
I'd say they'd develop habits and behaviours that don't fit with social norms. But we need to remember that not adhering to social norms of behaviour does not constitute insanity
[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;38440390]You'd probably develop an imaginary world, your brain needs stimulus it makes up things to fill the void[/QUOTE]
you wake up with everyone you loved around you
you saw them all die in this dream world you created where you thought you weren't actually in a coma
heart attack from shock, instant death
GREAT GOING BRAIN YOU DID A GOOD JOB
[editline]13th November 2012[/editline]
oh my god that would such so bad :v:
Time to stop feeling like a depressed fuck. I clearly have it better then that guy.
[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;38440390]You'd probably develop an imaginary world, your brain needs stimulus it makes up things to fill the void[/QUOTE]
just like all people do normally.
[QUOTE=Andokool12;38440183]This makes comas even more scary[/QUOTE]
Could be worse. He could've been in constant pain the entire time.
Maybe he was, but at least he isn't now.
[QUOTE=DesolateGrun;38440390]You'd probably develop an imaginary world, your brain needs stimulus it makes up things to fill the void[/QUOTE]
He should write a book about it one day using that scanner.
No one has made a joke about him being a vegetable,seriously??
[QUOTE=Muthenfrucheir;38444094]No one has made a joke about him being a vegetable,seriously??[/QUOTE]
We only make fun of the dead around here.
[QUOTE=Muthenfrucheir;38444094]No one has made a joke about him being a vegetable,seriously??[/QUOTE]
I hope I never turnip like him.
Here's the scary part:
We may all be in some dream world of a guy in a coma right now! He invented us to fill the dark void of his consciousness. OMG, don't pull the plug!
