France’s highest court refuses to recognise 'neutral gender' as a category
255 replies, posted
[QUOTE]France’s top court of appeals on Thursday ruled that a person of indeterminate sex could not use “neutral gender” as a civil status category.
In a landmark ruling on a case filed by a 65-year-old psychotherapist, the court noted that “the duality” of gender as a civil status was “necessary for social and legal organisation”.
The latest ruling came months after a French court recognised “neutral gender” in a case filed by the 65-year-old plaintiff who was born with indeterminate gender but assigned a male status at birth.
In August 2015, a family court in the central French city of Tours accepted a neutral gender category. But in March 2016, an appeals court in Orléans rejected the ruling.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.france24.com/en/20170504-france-neutral-gender-sex-court[/url]
[quote]France’s top court of appeals on Thursday ruled that a person of indeterminate sex could not use “neutral gender” as a civil status category.
In a landmark ruling on a case filed by a 65-year-old psychotherapist, the court noted that “the duality” of gender as a civil status was “necessary for social and legal organisation”.[/quote]
not really.
it's important for your doctor to know you at a comprehensive genetic level (which the binary doesn't even fulfill but w/e.) Almost any other situation? Nah.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52190339]not really.
it's important for your doctor to know you at a comprehensive genetic level (which the binary doesn't even fulfill but w/e.) Almost any other situation? Nah.[/QUOTE]
we've got enough problems between having people of two genders already, and you think it's bad for legal stability to keep it that way? all people are equal, of course, but adding more genders to the mix-- which are completely made up, nonetheless-- wouldn't help the situation.
you'd prefer if anybody could just go and say "well I'm X gender so I can do Y because my gender doesn't conform to the legal or social norms of other genders"? power to the people, yeah, but there are times when you need to draw the line and say "no we're gonna keep this shit sensible," which is what they're trying to do here.
this stub article doesn't do much to explain what this means legally, and I'm certain that there's a better way to go about it, but it's an entirely reasonable ruling for them to agree that people are either male or female given that people are indeed born as either male or female. you can't choose what ethnicity you're born to, right? likewise, you can't just choose what gender you are (without surgery, but that's a different topic)
Yes from a Legal and medical standpoint There should only be 2 genders.
People can call themselves whatever the fuck they want but when it comes to legality, and treating patients, You can only be born 2 genders, whether its one, or the other, or both, it's still dictated by biology that there are two genders.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52190899]we've got enough problems between having people of two genders already, and you think it's bad for legal stability to keep it that way? all people are equal, of course, but adding more genders to the mix-- which are completely made up, nonetheless-- wouldn't help the situation.
you'd prefer if anybody could just go and say "well I'm X gender so I can do Y because my gender doesn't conform to the legal or social norms of other genders"? power to the people, yeah, but there are times when you need to draw the line and say "no we're gonna keep this shit sensible," which is what they're trying to do here.
this stub article doesn't do much to explain what this means legally, and I'm certain that there's a better way to go about it, but it's an entirely reasonable ruling for them to agree that people are either male or female given that people are indeed born as either male or female. you can't choose what ethnicity you're born to, right? likewise, you can't just choose what gender you are (without surgery, but that's a different topic)[/QUOTE]
News for you -- ALL gender is completely made up, by definition. It's just sets of roles and behaviors that, historically, we've said "people with penises like the color blue and trucks" and "people with vaginas like pink and perfume". It's all completely arbitrary. You aren't born into a gender, you're born with certain chromosomes -- XX, XY, or in some cases XXY, XXX, XYY, and some more I believe? But the two -- gender and primary/secondary sexual characteristics -- are not equatable.
As you say, I don't see why gender is in the courtroom at all, but I can't see any reason to reject the notion of non-binary gender designations therein.
There are 23 pairs of chromosomes. The 23rd pair are the ones that dictate male or female.
Gender designations exist simply because humans need to designate attributes for organizational purposes. That is the only reason.
Being born with either pair of the 23rd chromosome is what dictates whether you are a boy or girl. The designation is simply acknowledged for the purposes of organization.
So to put it generally, you are either designated male or female based on predetermined biological traits.
I don't know where the room for realistic organization in the eyes of the government and medical sphere truly lay for the non-binary, and I think that is because there isn't room.
Even non binary people at a cellular level have predetermined chromosomes of the 23rd pair in some way shape or form, making them not only human, but male or female.
Anything more than that is artistic.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52190899]we've got enough problems between having people of two genders already, and you think it's bad for legal stability to keep it that way? all people are equal, of course, but adding more genders to the mix-- which are completely made up, nonetheless-- wouldn't help the situation.
you'd prefer if anybody could just go and say "well I'm X gender so I can do Y because my gender doesn't conform to the legal or social norms of other genders"? power to the people, yeah, but there are times when you need to draw the line and say "no we're gonna keep this shit sensible," which is what they're trying to do here.
this stub article doesn't do much to explain what this means legally, and I'm certain that there's a better way to go about it, but it's an entirely reasonable ruling for them to agree that people are either male or female given that people are indeed born as either male or female. [B]you can't choose what ethnicity you're born to, right?[/B] likewise, you can't just choose what gender you are (without surgery, but that's a different topic)[/QUOTE]
Race isn't a scientifically backed concept and it doesn't factor into French law.
the people in this thread who are apparently professors of biology claiming there are only two genders are in for a rude shock when they discover that [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intersex_people"]intersex people have existed for a really long time now[/URL]
[QUOTE=1239the;52191311]the people in this thread who are apparently professors of biology claiming there are only two genders are in for a rude shock when they discover that [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intersex_people"]intersex people have existed for a really long time now[/URL][/QUOTE]
But the majority of intersex people identify as male or female, and "Intersex" covers a broad range of conditions, the majority of which are not some middle state between male and female like the name implies. It has very little to do with non-binary people.
[QUOTE=1239the;52191311]the people in this thread who are apparently professors of biology claiming there are only two genders are in for a rude shock when they discover that [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intersex_people"]intersex people have existed for a really long time now[/URL][/QUOTE]
Most of that list is people that went through SRS. In which case they are in the process of achieving or have achieved a binary gender.
If one was to design a new legal system (and not deal with the rot of old systems), I can't imagine gender/sex being relevant in almost any case if we were to treat people in a logical way without double standards.
Whether or not gender is a social construct or not, and how much so isn't exactly something we can prove, and I expect it's at least a bit of both, and honestly there's no real reason to tell someone else that they have to fit into your idea of how the world should be. If you're going to use gender for legal reasons, you need to provide an adequate set of options and saying a third 'none of the above' or 'neutral' option would damage 'social and legal organisation' is bullshit.
Gender, sex, chromosomes, body presentations, literally none of them actually fit into a binary and honestly once you stop assuming that they have to it starts to seem a tad ridiculous to think anything as complex as they are would.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52190899]all people are equal, of course, but adding more genders to the mix-- which are completely made up, nonetheless-- wouldn't help the situation.[/QUOTE]
Gender is real, gender roles are arbitrary. Sex is your chromosomes, XX or XY. Gender is your brain, the way it's wired it's image of itself. Gender roles are society's expectations, these are learned as you grow up, and are unrelated to the innate nature of the human body or brain.
[QUOTE=eldomtom2;52191368]But the majority of intersex people identify as male or female, and "Intersex" covers a broad range of conditions, the majority of which are not some middle state between male and female like the name implies. It has very little to do with non-binary people.[/QUOTE]
Intersex, not intergender. There are naturally 2 sexes, XX and XY. There are technically more due to rare genetic abnormalities, such as XXY as mentioned above. But personally I don't count those because they are just genetic errors.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52191425]Gender is real, gender roles are arbitrary. Sex is your chromosomes, XX or XY. Gender is your brain, the way it's wired it's image of itself. Gender roles are society's expectations, these are learned as you grow up, and are unrelated to the innate nature of the human body or brain.
Intersex, not intergender. There are naturally 2 sexes, XX and XY. There are technically more due to rare genetic abnormalities, such as XXY as mentioned above. [B]But personally I don't count those because they are simply genetic errors.[/B][/QUOTE]
You can't build a legal system like that.
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52191456]You can't build a legal system like that.[/QUOTE]
Except we can and we have, and it's been that way for a long time. The condition mentioned above is a genetic defect and would be detailed on your medical history where it belongs.
[QUOTE=1239the;52191311]the people in this thread who are apparently professors of biology claiming there are only two genders are in for a rude shock when they discover that [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_intersex_people"]intersex people have existed for a really long time now[/URL][/QUOTE]
intersex people are people born with deformities, like those with a messed up foreskin or an extra nipple. it's a very minor (often purely visual) thing that in most cases can be corrected with basic surgery. just because somebody is missing one of their testicles or a woman manages to grow a beard doesn't mean there's more than two sexes
I'm going to go ahead and say right off the bat here that I'm in a relationship with a FTM trans person who identifies as non-binary; that is that they are neither comfortable with the label "man" nor "woman" 100% of the time, and prefers the pronouns "they/them/their."
And with that said there are some points in posts above that need to be addressed. I'll try not to be rude and to assume that people have the best intentions, but if the people that I'm responding to have never actually spoken on a 1 to 1 basis with a trans person, I suggest that they do so as soon as is feasible. Seek to understand the world of what it's like to live as a trans person in modern society. This stuff isn't made up - it's real, and it really affects people whether you "believe" in it or not. I can attest to that as a relative novice to the LGBT community.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52190899]we've got enough problems between having people of two genders already, and you think it's bad for legal stability to keep it that way? all people are equal, of course, but adding more genders to the mix-- which are completely made up, nonetheless-- wouldn't help the situation.[/quote]
All genders are "made up". There is a difference between the physiological sex of an individual (which can be altered aesthetically by surgery) and that individual's gender. Your sex is your genitals, your gender is an identity that exists in your mind. Effectively, an individual's "gender" is the set of behavioral norms that they most strongly identify with and seek to project. If I walk up to a student athlete who's sporting a beard and is lifting mad weights with bulging muscles I'm not going to think he's a dude as a result of his balls (which I probably haven't seen), I'm gonna think he's a dude based on the way he's presenting himself to society. This is a key point. Your gender identity and expression are not innately linked to your sex or genitals. And as you rightly point out below...
[quote]this stub article doesn't do much to explain what this means legally, and I'm certain that there's a better way to go about it, but it's an entirely reasonable ruling for them to agree that people are either male or female given that people are indeed born as either male or female. you can't choose what ethnicity you're born to, right? likewise, [B]you can't just choose what gender you are (without surgery, but that's a different topic)[/B][/quote]
...trans people (including non-binary) do not have the capacity to [I]choose[/I] their gender, it is something that their brain chemistry decides for them without any conscious input. However, where you are incorrect here, is that someone's gender [B]cannot[/B] be currently changed with surgery - but I would guess this is likely a result of your apparent ignorance regarding the division between sex and gender. The actual reason that trans people get surgery is because surgery presents the capacity to change your sex to match your gender identity. You can't really physiologically "change" your gender because fuck operating on someone's brain to match your genitals. Way too dangerous. Might be possible, but why the hell would we risk brain damage just to preserve these old archaic social structures?
[quote]draw the line and say "no we're gonna keep this shit sensible," which is what they're trying to do here. [/QUOTE]
all due respect i don't think it's an unreasonable request to respect the pronouns that a person prefers and let them use the bathroom they feel comfortable in. it's not difficult and something everyone should understand. I'm a straight dude. if someone consistently called me "she" and "her" I'd be really frustrated and embarrassed, same with if I was forced to use a womens' restrroom. Trans issues effectively come down to pronouns and bathrooms (of which the non-binary designation for non-binary people is a part, and by extension legal representation is necessary and important from a legal and moral perspective).
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;52191045]Yes from a Legal and medical standpoint There should only be 2 genders.
People can call themselves whatever the fuck they want but when it comes to legality, and treating patients, You can only be born 2 genders, whether its one, or the other, or both, it's still dictated by biology that there are two genders.[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming the same misconception with gender and sex here, and as such I'm treating your use of the word "gender" to mean "sex".
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex]If that's the case, then sorry, you're wrong. Feel free to disagree with facts though if you like! That is absolutely your right.[/url]
Now if you do mean gender in the correct way, then you're still wrong. Plenty of existing cultures have categories for non-binary genders. So try again.
Forgive me for the curt snarkiness, but there's not much else to say. There's a huge spectrum that exists between a binary perspective of the sexes "male" and "female" just like there is a huge spectrum that exists between the genders of "man" and "woman" (think of particularly effeminate men or masculine women, now think of someone who is right at the exact center of that! that's my partner)
[QUOTE=DiBBs27;52191164]There are 23 pairs of chromosomes. The 23rd pair are the ones that dictate male or female.
Gender designations exist simply because humans need to designate attributes for organizational purposes. That is the only reason.
Being born with either pair of the 23rd chromosome is what dictates whether you are a boy or girl. The designation is simply acknowledged for the purposes of organization.
So to put it generally, you are either designated male or female based on predetermined biological traits.[/quote]
As described above, the association of gender and sex is not innate! Plenty of indigenous societies have third category designations for non-binary individuals. It's definitely a strong theme in western society, but so have been plenty of other ideas that we've thrown to the winds for the sake of progress and bettering humanity. Like caste systems.
[quote]I don't know where the room for realistic organization in the eyes of the government and medical sphere truly lay for the non-binary, and I think that is because there isn't room.
Even non binary people at a cellular level have predetermined chromosomes of the 23rd pair in some way shape or form, making them not only human, but male or female.
Anything more than that is artistic.[/QUOTE]
Please explain to me why there is no legal space for my partner to exist in society.
Please note their requests are the following:
1."Please call me they/them/their"
2. "Please let me use a bathroom I am comfortable with"
I'd rather like that we remove gender from ID cards and stuff than we add a whole new lot of categories.
[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;52191471]Except we can and we have, and it's been that way for a long time. The condition mentioned above is a genetic defect and would be detailed on your medical history where it belongs.[/QUOTE]
Oh we have and it causes problems for them, such as forcing people to pick identities which don't apply to them. An 'other' checkbox isn't particularly difficult to implement.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52191558]I'm going to go ahead and say right off the bat here that I'm in a relationship with a FTM trans person who identifies as non-binary; that is that they are neither comfortable with the label "man" nor "woman" 100% of the time, and prefers the pronouns "they/them/their."
And with that said there are some points in posts above that need to be addressed. I'll try not to be rude and to assume that people have the best intentions, but if the people that I'm responding to have never actually spoken on a 1 to 1 basis with a trans person, I suggest that they do so as soon as is feasible. Seek to understand the world of what it's like to live as a trans person in modern society. This stuff isn't made up - it's real, and it really affects people whether you "believe" in it or not. I can attest to that as a relative novice to the LGBT community.
All genders are "made up". There is a difference between the physiological sex of an individual (which can be altered aesthetically by surgery) and that individual's gender. Your sex is your genitals, your gender is an identity that exists in your mind. Effectively, an individual's "gender" is the set of behavioral norms that they most strongly identify with and seek to project. If I walk up to a student athlete who's sporting a beard and is lifting mad weights with bulging muscles I'm not going to think he's a dude as a result of his balls (which I probably haven't seen), I'm gonna think he's a dude based on the way he's presenting himself to society. This is a key point. Your gender identity and expression are not innately linked to your sex or genitals. And as you rightly point out below...
...trans people (including non-binary) do not have the capacity to [I]choose[/I] their gender, it is something that their brain chemistry decides for them without any conscious input. However, where you are incorrect here, is that someone's gender [B]cannot[/B] be currently changed with surgery - but I would guess this is likely a result of your apparent ignorance regarding the division between sex and gender. The actual reason that trans people get surgery is because surgery presents the capacity to change your sex to match your gender identity. You can't really physiologically "change" your gender because fuck operating on someone's brain to match your genitals. Way too dangerous. Might be possible, but why the hell would we risk brain damage just to preserve these old archaic social structures?
all due respect i don't think it's an unreasonable request to respect the pronouns that a person prefers and let them use the bathroom they feel comfortable in. it's not difficult and something everyone should understand. I'm a straight dude. if someone consistently called me "she" and "her" I'd be really frustrated and embarrassed, same with if I was forced to use a womens' restrroom. Trans issues effectively come down to pronouns and bathrooms (of which the non-binary designation for non-binary people is a part, and by extension legal representation is necessary and important from a legal and moral perspective).
I'm assuming the same misconception with gender and sex here, and as such I'm treating your use of the word "gender" to mean "sex".
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex]If that's the case, then sorry, you're wrong. Feel free to disagree with facts though if you like! That is absolutely your right.[/url]
Now if you do mean gender in the correct way, then you're still wrong. Plenty of existing cultures have categories for non-binary genders. So try again.
Forgive me for the curt snarkiness, but there's not much else to say. There's a huge spectrum that exists between a binary perspective of the sexes "male" and "female" just like there is a huge spectrum that exists between the genders of "man" and "woman" (think of particularly effeminate men or masculine women, now think of someone who is right at the exact center of that! that's my partner)
Please explain to me why there is no legal space for my partner to exist in society.
Please note their requests are the following:
1."Please call me they/them/their"
2. "Please let me use a bathroom I am comfortable with"[/QUOTE]
as off-putting as it may sound, your girlfriend is a borderline case and i don't think we should reform the entire legal system in such an extravagant way to accommodate her
[quote]There's a huge spectrum that exists between a binary perspective of the sexes "male" and "female"[/quote]
there really isn't. the vast bulk of the variation are minor deformities that (if you want) can be changed with surgery. when we define humans, we don't include people with one arm or four fingers on each hand for obvious reasons
[quote]As described above, the association of gender and sex is not innate! Plenty of indigenous societies have third category designations for non-binary individuals. It's definitely a strong theme in western society, but so have been plenty of other ideas that we've thrown to the winds for the sake of progress and bettering humanity. Like caste systems.[/quote]
indigenous societies also often have cousin marriage, spousal rape and so on, so i don't think that's the route you want to go when talking about third sexes (a lot of anthropologists in turn actually imposed western preconceptions onto these cultures by assuming one of their traditions fit the western idea of a gender and thus their society had all these extra genders)
[QUOTE=_Axel;52191168]Race isn't a scientifically backed concept and it doesn't factor into French law.[/QUOTE]
that's besides the point, I meant that it's in the same way somebody might say they have like mexican pride or irish pride, or maybe even gay pride if you want to consider ethnicity beyond national heritage, or whatever. it's not something they choose to have, it's something they're born into, as is gender/sex. I didn't even use the word race, ethnicity is just the state of inherently belonging to some culture or heritage, which is why I chose to make the comparison.
[QUOTE=Beetle179, 1239the].[/QUOTE]
back to the topic at hand, I was unclear when I used gender as a substitute for sex. yeah, gender is the social and cultural roles applied to people based on their sex. get this though:1. people of a given sex generally display some typical characteristics of that sex, regardless of culture-- similar thing with stereotypes, which are unfair generalizations but have some basis to them. if you go to a relationship counselor, they'll tell you that you need to listen to your girlfriend and empathize with her rather than try to offer her solutions because that's literally just the way the average woman's brain is wired. or for your boyfriend, they'll tell you that there's times to nurture them, and then there's times to give them space and let them retreat to their mancave or whatever-- it's literally just the way their brain is wired based on their chromosomes. an intersex person, I would imagine, will fall under one of these categories with psychological evaluation/counseling/therapy, and I'm willing to bet that their brain will be similar to whatever physical sexual characteristics they have in most cases. 2. most people are male or female. like 1239the said, there's plenty of intersex people out there, too, such as the person from the op's article.
how many variations of intersex are there? how many different genders can people come up with based on whatever factors into "intersex"? wikipedia mentions like 6 different categories in its definition of intersex. are we supposed to consider people as one of fifty genders? do they choose these genders or are they assigned by an agency or something?
the point is, "gender" is an ambiguous enough term, especially under intersex circumstances, that it shouldn't be somebody's choice. would a particularly feminine man (or for that matter a masculine woman) be considered a woman (or man) by the government because of whatever arbitrary cultural shit? does this guy get to use women's restrooms because he's feminine? gender is a societal thing, but it's rooted in sex. like I intended to say before, having accidentally used gender and sex interchangeably, people don't get to choose what sex they're born with. also, regardless of culture or sexual preference or anything like that, the average person is uncomfortable being around other people's junk in casual circumstance. this is a biological fact, and it's why sex is such a heavily debated and attacked subject. as such, given that there are 2 sexes found among the wide majority of human beings, we should only consider people based on whether they are male or female (and people who are clearly male or female, not intersex, should be considered based on that alone and not what they choose, unless they undergo surgery but again, different subject). intersex people who have a good reason to struggle with gender identity should be given access to resources and therapy that enable them to become comfortable with a given binary gender, sure, but in order to put them on equal footing/legal status with the average person, it should be one or the other. gender "neutrality" doesn't mean shit because it has nothing to do with the characteristics of either sex, which is what gender is based on.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52191613]as off-putting as it may sound, your girlfriend is a borderline case and i don't think we should reform the entire legal system in such an extravagant way to accommodate her
there really isn't. the vast bulk of the variation are minor deformities that (if you want) can be changed with surgery. when we define humans, we don't include people with one arm or four fingers on each hand for obvious reasons
indigenous societies also often have cousin marriage, spousal rape and so on, so i don't think that's the route you want to go when talking about third sexes (a lot of anthropologists in turn actually imposed western preconceptions onto these cultures by assuming one of their traditions fit the western idea of a gender and thus their society had all these extra genders)[/QUOTE]
I'd just like to point out that the argument of "they're borderline so they shouldn't be considered in legality" was used to argue against legalizing same-sex marriage.
People who have one arm or four fingers on each hand are still human, though. I don't know what you're trying to say here.
[QUOTE=1239the;52191646]I'd just like to point out that the argument of "they're borderline so they shouldn't be considered in legality" was used to argue against legalizing same-sex marriage.[/quote]
why does this matter here exactly?
[quote]People who have one arm or four fingers on each hand are still human, though. I don't know what you're trying to say here.[/QUOTE]
well yeah they are, but when you're describing the anatomy of a human you don't say "humans range from 0 to 7 fingers" or "humans may have between 0 and 3 legs". anatomical textbooks describe humans as possessing two kidneys, two eyes, arms and legs, 5 fingers on each hand, and as being either male or female
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52191677]why does this matter here exactly?
well yeah they are, but when you're describing the anatomy of a human you don't say "humans range from 0 to 7 fingers" or "humans may have between 0 and 3 legs". anatomical textbooks describe humans as possessing two kidneys, two eyes, arms and legs, 5 fingers on each hand, and as being either male or female[/QUOTE]
If people were asked to list their number of fingers with only the "5" option on legal documents then it would be a problem. It's literally just a third 'other' box.
[QUOTE=Beetle179;52191057]News for you -- [B]ALL gender is completely made up, by definition[/B]. It's just sets of roles and behaviors that, historically, we've said "people with penises like the color blue and trucks" and "people with vaginas like pink and perfume". It's all completely arbitrary. You aren't born into a gender, you're born with certain chromosomes -- XX, XY, or in some cases XXY, XXX, XYY, and some more I believe? But the two -- gender and primary/secondary sexual characteristics -- are not equatable.
As you say, I don't see why gender is in the courtroom at all, but I can't see any reason to reject the notion of non-binary gender designations therein.[/QUOTE]
They very much are not, there is a massive difference between social constructs of gender like color preferences and what toys children "prefer", and how the two sexes think and behave differently as a result of different biology and brain chemistry. Those chromosomes you mention help determine how your physical body will develop and similarly how your mind will develop, those chromosomes define measurable differences between men and women.
[editline]5th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52191456]You can't build a legal system like that.[/QUOTE]
You most definitely can. What you can't do is build a legal system around an undefinable "spectrum" that 0.0001% of the population falls under as a result of genetic abnormalities.
Last I checked there's also no genuine separation of gender and sex in France both in terms of law and in terms of language, like people just don't acknowledge gender at all.
If you want to change the sex on your ID you need to go through SRS. At least that's how it was last I checked.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;52191558]I'm going to go ahead and say right off the bat here that I'm in a relationship with a FTM trans person who identifies as non-binary; that is that they are neither comfortable with the label "man" nor "woman" 100% of the time, and prefers the pronouns "they/them/their."
And with that said there are some points in posts above that need to be addressed. I'll try not to be rude and to assume that people have the best intentions, but if the people that I'm responding to have never actually spoken on a 1 to 1 basis with a trans person, I suggest that they do so as soon as is feasible. Seek to understand the world of what it's like to live as a trans person in modern society. This stuff isn't made up - it's real, and it really affects people whether you "believe" in it or not. I can attest to that as a relative novice to the LGBT community.
All genders are "made up". There is a difference between the physiological sex of an individual (which can be altered aesthetically by surgery) and that individual's gender. Your sex is your genitals, your gender is an identity that exists in your mind. Effectively, an individual's "gender" is the set of behavioral norms that they most strongly identify with and seek to project. If I walk up to a student athlete who's sporting a beard and is lifting mad weights with bulging muscles I'm not going to think he's a dude as a result of his balls (which I probably haven't seen), I'm gonna think he's a dude based on the way he's presenting himself to society. This is a key point. Your gender identity and expression are not innately linked to your sex or genitals. And as you rightly point out below...
...trans people (including non-binary) do not have the capacity to [I]choose[/I] their gender, it is something that their brain chemistry decides for them without any conscious input. However, where you are incorrect here, is that someone's gender [B]cannot[/B] be currently changed with surgery - but I would guess this is likely a result of your apparent ignorance regarding the division between sex and gender. The actual reason that trans people get surgery is because surgery presents the capacity to change your sex to match your gender identity. You can't really physiologically "change" your gender because fuck operating on someone's brain to match your genitals. Way too dangerous. Might be possible, but why the hell would we risk brain damage just to preserve these old archaic social structures?
all due respect i don't think it's an unreasonable request to respect the pronouns that a person prefers [b]and let them use the bathroom they feel comfortable in[/b]. it's not difficult and something everyone should understand. I'm a straight dude. if someone consistently called me "she" and "her" I'd be really frustrated and embarrassed, same with if I was forced to use a womens' restrroom. Trans issues effectively come down to pronouns and bathrooms (of which the non-binary designation for non-binary people is a part, and by extension legal representation is necessary and important from a legal and moral perspective).
[/QUOTE]
trans is not part of the particular discussion on the article itself, but you're right to bring it up. first of all, bathroom use should be based on your genitals (because people inherently don't like being around stranger's genitals, and this is made worse when that stranger has different genitals from them) and not on whatever gender you choose to call yourself. I respect people's rights to do so-- if somebody honestly feels more comfortable going as the opposite gender, they have the right to do so... personally. they can get their family and friends and people they meet in on it, sure, because that's how they're comfortable. but legally speaking, they should be considered based on the biology they were born with, because males are inherently different from females and vice versa.
thus brings me to my point, what about fake trans people? legally speaking, if we worry about somebody's gender based on their preference (which can extend to the article's topic by including "neutrality"), what if we have a legal case that's, for whatever asinine reason, banking on somebody's gender [i](which it should NEVER, because there's honestly no good reason for it ever to. the gender of somebody shouldn't be a deciding factor in their sentencing or the charges pressed against them, because anyone can rape/murder/etc. anybody regardless of gender, but I digress)[/i] and that person claims to be a different gender? legally speaking, they can game the system by lying about gender-- and since gender is, as you've said and as I made clear in my second post in this thread, purely fabricated based on "sex, societal roles, and [b]personal preference[/b]", there's no way to prove they're lying because it's a mental thing, similar to how people get away with crimes with bullshit insanity pleas. however, if we go by their biological sex as gender, then it's not something they can just make up, and we can predict behavior and motives to an extent based on the way their sex determines the wiring of their brain. it's clearly the most reasonable way for a legal system to handle gender: base it on their DNA and not their preference. [i](besides excluding gender/sex from the case/legal system in the first place, of course)[/i]
and as for the pronouns, as much as I respect a person's right to be trans, I'm gonna use pronouns based on how they were born and not what they choose. that athlete you mentioned-- you assume he's male because he's got a beard and bulging muscles and these are how he presents himself to society; and he presents himself with a beard and bulging muscles because these are the things that men tend to have more often than women, because that is how their bodies work! not too long ago there were a couple threads about an MTF trans wrestler who slaughtered his way through a wrestling competition. (imo, with no facts to back it up other than "he's had the hormones of a male for 30+ years, no hormone therapy can undo that," that guy should never have been in that competition to begin with.) I call him "him" and not "her" because, regardless of what pronouns he asks me to use, if I knew nothing about him and I looked at his DNA in a lab, I'd say "yep that's male." if I did know about his trans history, I'd look at his matches in the competition and say, "hmm, this sure looks like it's a guy wrestling women, given how he mops the floor with them in every round." sure, there are plenty of buff women who identify as women that could kick my ass and your ass, but they're the exception. would you consider a buff woman, who's clearly got female traits, to be "male" genderwise because she's big and burly and masculine? she can have all of these traits and identify as female, right? or she could identify as male. it's too ambiguous for a legal system to know for sure though, right? because the legal system doesn't know her personally, just like you and I. the legal system isn't meant to be personal, it's meant to be arbitrary-- a third party giving judgement based on evidence. and so, if the legal system is concerned about her gender, they need to look at what makes her biologically male or female because that's concrete.
[editline]5th May 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52191690]If people were asked to list their number of fingers with only the "5" option on legal documents then it would be a problem. It's literally just a third 'other' box.[/QUOTE]
his point is that the question of their number of fingers shouldn't be on the document in the first place. they can't choose to identify as a different kind of human because they don't have 10 fingers, because humans are supposed to have 10 fingers. likewise, they can't say "gender is a spectrum" (sex would be the better word, and sex is the root of gender) because humans are supposed to be male or female.
[QUOTE=Sobotnik;52191613]as off-putting as it may sound, your girlfriend is a borderline case and i don't think we should reform the entire legal system in such an extravagant way to accommodate her[/quote]
"Off-putting?" Nice. way to be a dick right off the bat with those pronouns! Hey, fuck the months of hormone therapy, right? Thanks for being decent!
They may be a "borderline" case but I fail to see how designations for non-binary gender and sex would require a major overhaul of the legal system. Could you care to elaborate why? Genuinely, I'm curious. I'm headed to law school and I'm interested in pursuing trans-related issues during the span of my career, and I would be interested in your fuller perspective.
[quote]there really isn't. the vast bulk of the variation are minor deformities that (if you want) can be changed with surgery. when we define humans, we don't include people with one arm or four fingers on each hand for obvious reasons[/quote]
Those minor deformities with respect to genitals have frequently been done without the consent of the individual, actually. It's a particular problem for some intersex people who are altered at birth who then age into gender dysphoria which would have otherwise been ameliorated (even if only slightly) by an unaltered set of genitals.
[quote]indigenous societies also often have cousin marriage, spousal rape and so on, so i don't think that's the route you want to go when talking about third sexes (a lot of anthropologists in turn actually imposed western preconceptions onto these cultures by assuming one of their traditions fit the western idea of a gender and thus their society had all these extra genders)[/QUOTE]
I appreciate the effort to associate the concept of being non-binary with spousal rape and incest, but the larger point is that the concept of gender is nowhere near as concrete as it seems, and is not immutable. As such it is subject to change, and in our society (one that seeks to help the disenfranchised) I fail to see a reason why we cannot integrate that knowledge into our progress. Considering that we constantly seek to improve ourselves as individuals and our society as a whole to be more inclusive I fail to see why we should just let this particular group fall to the wayside.
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52191750]first of all, bathroom use should be based on your genitals (because people inherently don't like being around stranger's genitals, and this is made worse when that stranger has different genitals from them)[/QUOTE]
lmfao they still piss in communal piss tanks where you live?
hoo boy there's a lot to pick through here
[QUOTE=Baconator 7;52191750]trans is not part of the particular discussion on the article itself, but you're right to bring it up. first of all, bathroom use should be based on your genitals (because people inherently don't like being around stranger's genitals, and this is made worse when that stranger has different genitals from them) and not on whatever gender you choose to call yourself.[/QUOTE]
"Because people inherently don't like being around stranger's genitals, and this is made worse when that stranger has different genitals than them." What are you even basing this on? How can you make such a sweeping statement with a straight face? You have no way of backing this statement up.
[quote]I respect people's rights to do so-- if somebody honestly feels more comfortable going as the opposite gender, they have the right to do so... personally. they can get their family and friends and people they meet in on it, sure, because that's how they're comfortable. but legally speaking, they should be considered based on the biology they were born with, because males are inherently different from females and vice versa.[/quote]
"Legally speaking", people do not fit into narrow boxes no matter how much we try to make them fit. If you try to force people into boundaries, people start falling through the cracks. When you say "you have to be X or Y to be recognized legally" you're essentially reducing a complex issue down to "conform or be ignored".
[quote]thus brings me to my point, what about fake trans people? legally speaking, if we worry about somebody's gender based on their preference (which can extend to the article's topic by including "neutrality"), what if we have a legal case that's, for whatever asinine reason, banking on somebody's gender [I](which it should NEVER, because there's honestly no good reason for it ever to. the gender of somebody shouldn't be a deciding factor in their sentencing or the charges pressed against them, because anyone can rape/murder/etc. anybody regardless of gender, but I digress)[/I] legally speaking, they can game the system by lying about gender-- and since gender is, as you've said and as I made clear in my second post in this thread, purely fabricated based on "sex, societal roles, and [B]personal preference[/B]", there's no way to prove they're lying because it's a mental thing, similar to how people get away with crimes with bullshit insanity pleas. however, if we go by their biological sex as gender, then it's not something they can just make up, and we can predict behavior and motives to an extent based on the way their sex determines the wiring of their brain. it's clearly the most reasonable way for a legal system to handle gender: base it on their DNA and not their preference. [I](besides excluding gender/sex from the case/legal system in the first place, of course)[/I][/quote]
I'm hella fucking confused by this.
1. Can you really think of an actual case where someone would lie about being trans for legal purposes?
2. People on the pro-transgender side of this issue are literally advocating for gender-neutral legal recognition, but you seem to be both for and against this idea. Either you want people to be seperated by legal definition, or you want them to be treated equally regardless of their gender. You can't have it both ways.
[quote]and as for the pronouns, as much as I respect a person's right to be trans, I'm gonna use pronouns based on how they were born and not what they choose.[/quote]
You don't respect trans people if you purposefully choose not to use their pronouns. There's no way around this.
[quote]that athlete you mentioned-- you assume he's male because he's got a beard and bulging muscles and these are how he presents himself to society; and he presents himself with a beard and bulging muscles because these are the things that men tend to have more often than women, because that is how their bodies work![/quote]
You can assume whatever you want about someone, but if they say "I'm not the gender you assume I am" then you don't have to continue using assumptions because you then know better.
As for "that's how their bodies work" biology is extremely complex and has a ton of edge cases. There is no real binary, only the one you continue to assume exists.
[quote]not too long ago there were a couple threads about an MTF trans wrestler who slaughtered his way through a wrestling competition. (imo, with no facts to back it up other than "he's had the hormones of a male for 30+ years, no hormone therapy can undo that," that guy should never have been in that competition to begin with.)[/quote]
The wrestler you're talking about is Mack Beggs, who is actually female-to-male, and was forced to fight against women despite wanting to fight other men. Because the system refused to recognize his transgender status.
[quote]I call him "him" and not "her" because, regardless of what pronouns he asks me to use, if I knew nothing about him and I looked at his DNA in a lab, I'd say "yep that's male."[/quote]
lmao how far do you have to go to stretch this argument. If you know nothing about someone then you're not qualified to be passing judgement about who they are.
[quote]if I did know about his trans history, I'd look at his matches in the competition and say, "hmm, this sure looks like it's a guy wrestling women, given how he mops the floor with them in every round." sure, there are plenty of buff women who identify as women that could kick my ass and your ass, but they're the exception. would you consider a buff woman, who's clearly got female traits, to be "male" genderwise because she's big and burly and masculine? she can have all of these traits and identify as female, right? or she could identify as male. it's too ambiguous for a legal system to know for sure though, right? because the legal system doesn't know her personally, just like you and I. the legal system isn't meant to be personal, it's meant to be arbitrary-- a third party giving judgement based on evidence. and so, if the legal system is concerned about her gender, they need to look at what makes her biologically male or female because that's concrete.[/quote]
If someone says they identify as female, then they're female. If someone says they identify as male, then they're male. If someone says they identify as neither, they're intersex.
Once again you argue that the legal system should be 'arbitrary' instead of personal - yet you continue to insist that the gender binary should exist in a legal sense and trans people should not be recognized. What are you trying to say, dude?
[quote]his point is that the question of their number of fingers shouldn't be on the document in the first place. they can't choose to identify as a different kind of human because they don't have 10 fingers, because humans are supposed to have 10 fingers. likewise, they can't say "gender is a spectrum" (sex would be the better word, and sex is the root of gender) because humans are supposed to be male or female.[/quote]
A more apt comparison would be saying that people born without five fingers are not allowed to say that they don't have five fingers - they have to say they have five fingers, even if they don't. The law has to treat them as if they have five fingers, even if they don't. And in your world, there can be no exception to this rule.
Meanwhile if you were to include trans people into this metaphor, the law wouldn't care if they have five, or ten, or a billion fingers - they're still human.
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