[QUOTE]THE HAGUE, Netherlands — Dutch prosecutors said Tuesday they have found what they believe could be parts of a Buk missile system at the site in eastern Ukraine where Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was brought down last year.
SEE ALSO: Field of death: Unraveling the mystery of MH17
The announcement represents the first time prosecutors have confirmed possible physical evidence of a missile bringing down the plane and killing all 298 people on board.
The prosecutors, who are leading an international criminal probe into the deadly crash on July 17, 2014, said in a written statement that the parts "are of particular interest to the criminal investigation as they can possibly provide more information about who was involved in the crash of MH17."[/QUOTE]
[url]http://mashable.com/2015/08/11/mh17-buk-missile-parts/[/url]
Considering Russia's recent edgy/rebellious actions I wouldn't put this above them.
They're seeing just how they can push their limits. [I]I wonder what this reminds me of...[/I]
Couldn't this be an act of war and/or terrorism?
Okay well I mean, you could say "Russian-made firearms in the hands of ISIS" as well as "Russian-made weapons in the hands of Sovereign Citizens"
To think that the Russians wouldn't try to make a quick buck by throwing toys at rebels isn't something new, it's been like that since the 60s. Doesn't make it right but people shouldn't be surprised.
[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48436829]Okay well I mean, you could say "Russian-made firearms in the hands of ISIS" as well as "Russian-made weapons in the hands of Sovereign Citizens"
To think that the Russians wouldn't try to make a quick buck by throwing toys at rebels isn't something new, it's been like that since the 60s. Doesn't make it right but people shouldn't be surprised.[/QUOTE]
We're not talking pea-shooters here though, we are talking advanced anti-air batteries.
The cost alone is high, let alone the channels to acquire the tech.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48436825]Couldn't this be an act of war and/or terrorism?[/QUOTE]
Similar incidents were never considered such, but this still can be used as leverage against Russia and its weird aggression against Ukraine
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;48436883]Similar incidents were never considered such, but this still can be used as leverage against Russia and its weird aggression against Ukraine[/QUOTE]
If Russia is giving shit to terrorists...that's borderline terrorism.
Most, if not all Ukrainian weapons are "Russian" made, or more precisely, Soviet made.
[quote]However, they cautioned that the conclusion cannot yet be drawn "that there is a causal connection between the discovered parts and the crash of flight MH17."
[/quote]
Sensationalist title is sensationalist.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48436825]Couldn't this be an act of war and/or terrorism?[/QUOTE]
Russia has shot down passenger places since the hieght of the cold war, it was never considered an act of war and generally russia was never punished for hit
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007[/url]
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48436944]Russia has shot down passenger places since the hieght of the cold war, it was never considered an act of war and generally russia was never punished for hit
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007[/url][/QUOTE]
I guess because punishing Russia...would be an act of war in their minds.
[QUOTE=JohnFisher89;48436944]Russia has shot down passenger places since the hieght of the cold war, it was never considered an act of war and generally russia was never punished for hit
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007[/url][/QUOTE]
[quote]In addition, the event was one of the most important single events that prompted the Reagan administration to allow worldwide access to the United States military's GNSS system, which was classified at the time. Today this system is widely known as GPS.[/quote]
At least something good came out of that event.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48436903]If Russia is giving shit to terrorists...that's borderline terrorism.[/QUOTE]
The separatists are not recognized internationally as terrorists
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;48437303]The separatists are not recognized internationally as terrorists[/QUOTE]
If they do this shit, they should be.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48437466]If they do this shit, they should be.[/QUOTE]
Depends on whether the targeting of the plane was an accident or intentional. There're other cases to declare them terrorists anyway.
[QUOTE=gudman;48437974]Depends on whether the targeting of the plane was an accident or intentional. There're other cases to declare them terrorists anyway.[/QUOTE]
I guess they could always claim it was accidental. Just like people in a hit and run incident can claim that they didn't notice the cash and cops sometimes can't charge them (had this happen to me). Same concept maybe.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48437993]I guess they could always claim it was accidental. Just like people in a hit and run incident can claim that they didn't notice the cash and cops sometimes can't charge them (had this happen to me). Same concept maybe.[/QUOTE]
The stuff that has been coming out (a couple of videos and, as much as I hate to point in that direction, social media activity that happened directly after the event) seems to point in the direction that they expected a military cargo plane and were kinda surprised at what has actually fallen from the sky. Wouldn't put it past them to act it out, but are they really that organized?
And yeah, sadly there's no way to know for certain if it was shot down intentionally - you'd have to have a really solid body of evidence, which would include witnesses, possibly, documents, to come out from the inside. The best thing to hope for is concrete evidence on who is the culprit, and that we can already say with a pretty high level of certainty. After all, there have been military planes shot down in that area days prior to the tragedy, so the rebels [b]did[/b] have a solid AA.
[QUOTE=gudman;48438076]The stuff that has been coming out (a couple of videos and, as much as I hate to point in that direction, social media activity that happened directly after the event) seems to point in the direction that they expected a military cargo plane and were kinda surprised at what has actually fallen from the sky. Wouldn't put it past them to act it out, but are they really that organized?
And yeah, sadly there's no way to know for certain if it was shot down intentionally - you'd have to have a really solid body of evidence, which would include witnesses, possibly, documents, to come out from the inside.[/QUOTE]
They were digging through belongings though from the videos I saw. Are they really at liberty to do so?
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48438091]They were digging through belongings though from the videos I saw. Are they really at liberty to do so?[/QUOTE]
Well, I guess it makes sense that they would try to dig through the stuff to find some documents and identify the flight that they've shot down (and the nationality of those on board, that too would be important), but it rather seemed to me like they were also scavenging a lot.
Do mind, though, that I think it's still despicable. "Makes sense" in this context doesn't mean that I approve or excuse such behaviour.
[QUOTE=gudman;48438127]Well, I guess it makes sense that they would try to dig through the stuff to find some documents and identify the flight that they've shot down (and the nationality of those on board, that too would be important), but it rather seemed to me like they were also scavenging a lot.
Do mind, though, that I think it's still despicable. "Makes sense" in this context doesn't mean that I approve or excuse such behaviour.[/QUOTE]
The scavenging part is what I was referring to. It was pretty obvious. That kind of (in my eyes) made their "oh fuck this is a commercial aircraft" excuse be easy to not believe.
Pffff the Israelis did it tho
Doesn't buk air defense system consist off 3 vehicles that all require operators and coordination as well as some actual logistics? From what I understood about it it's not like having a tank that you can drive around and just shoot things?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;48438294]Doesn't buk air defense system consist off 3 vehicles that all require operators and coordination as well as some actual logistics? From what I understood about it it's not like having a tank that you can drive around and just shoot things?[/QUOTE]
In a perfect world, yeah. Identify your target before killing it.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48438143]The scavenging part is what I was referring to. It was pretty obvious. That kind of (in my eyes) made their "oh fuck this is a commercial aircraft" excuse be easy to not believe.[/QUOTE]
I don't think scavenging necessarily have anything to do with their surprised act. First, it's obviously some other group of combatants, not the ones who shot the thing down, second - they hardly look disciplined enough to not try and take shit. They went on and tried to justify it over the radio with "what, you saw airborne troops jump out of it?" line.
Can be either way really.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;48438294]Doesn't buk air defense system consist off 3 vehicles that all require operators and coordination as well as some actual logistics? From what I understood about it it's not like having a tank that you can drive around and just shoot things?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, in perfect conditions. However, some Buk launchers are equipped with lighter radar installations which can turn it into a sort of stand-alone self-sufficient combat unit, but that's only to be used under extreme conditions. It severely under-performs compared to proper multi-vehicle setup. As far as operating one goes, it's not rocket science, not really. The only actually trained professional it requires is a commander, the one who operates the radar and interprets the data. Everyone else can be basically told what to do on the spot. It's pretty straight-forward mass-deployment AA defence system, it's made for dummies in the first place. The fucking Shilka AA machinegun is harder to operate.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;48438294]Doesn't buk air defense system consist off 3 vehicles that all require operators and coordination as well as some actual logistics? From what I understood about it it's not like having a tank that you can drive around and just shoot things?[/QUOTE]
Ya but convoys of trucks were moving around the area, plus they had some radar capabilities because they were shooting down Ukrainian aircraft at altitudes above which manpads can work, its not impossible that they had the radar system as well as the launchers
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48437993]I guess they could always claim it was accidental. Just like people in a hit and run incident can claim that they didn't notice the cash and cops sometimes can't charge them (had this happen to me). Same concept maybe.[/QUOTE]
Most likely, it was accidental. They reported shooting an Ukranian plane down shortly after, then pulled back those reports when they realized it was civilian. A SAM is easy to launch, hard to target with properly. If you don't do proper targeting, you just get locks on whatever is in the air. Civies included. Chances are, they went for first lock and launched since they didn't have training/care/equipment to do FFI on their target.
I'm still wondering how come this area was not closed for civilian aircrafts, considering the downed ukranian military planes and such. Yeah, i know that airliners fly at extremely high altitudes, and rebels were not expected to have anti air systems capable to reach them, but still. Why taking any risk at all if you can prevent it?
[QUOTE=antianan;48438572]I'm still wondering how come this area was not closed for civilian aircrafts, considering the downed ukranian military planes and such. Yeah, i know that airliners fly at extremely high altitudes, and rebels were not expected to have anti air systems capable to reach them, but still. Why taking any risk at all if you can prevent it?[/QUOTE]
Profits. Fuel and time is expensive, you save both flying over warzones. Airlines these day often fly at a shoe-string margin of profit, and it'd be a huge waste to avoid a fairly safe, relatively low-key conflict like Ukraine when there was near zero chance of getting shot down. Too bad some incompetent fuck with illegally stolen or donated equipment was on watch in that Buk.
[QUOTE=Riller;48438592]Profits. Fuel and time is expensive, you save both flying over warzones. Airlines these day often fly at a shoe-string margin of profit, and it'd be a huge waste to avoid a fairly safe, relatively low-key conflict like Ukraine when there was near zero chance of getting shot down. Too bad some incompetent fuck with illegally stolen or donated equipment was on watch in that Buk.[/QUOTE]
Well, I wouldn't call this conflict "relatively low-key". It's not some banana republics fighting each other with sticks, it was essentially a full scale conventional war involving relatively modern tanks, artillery and AA until that ceasefire showed up. So while it's understandable that second tier airlines want to save money anywhere possible, i think it was totally not appropriate and incredibly dumb to send civilian planes there in this very case.
[QUOTE=antianan;48438785]Well, I wouldn't call this conflict "relatively low-key". It's not some banana republics fighting each other with sticks, it was essentially a full scale conventional war involving relatively modern tanks, artillery and AA until that ceasefire showed up.[/QUOTE]
It was a post-soviet state fighting rebels until the MH17-incident. Before then, the rebels hadn't shown off anything heavier than an APC as far as equipment goes. It was very, very much a ground-conflict so the high-level airspace was peaceful. Everyone was flying planes over Ukraine until then. That's just how the world works today. People gotta fly, and unless there's a clear and present danger, they fly. That danger wasn't perceived as being there at the time.
[QUOTE=agentfazexx;48436825]Couldn't this be an act of war and/or terrorism?[/QUOTE]
Neither. Just because the Missile was Russian-made doesn't mean Russia actually supported the Separatists shooting down the plane. I'm sure someone in this forum has a Russian-made Kalashnikov but that doesn't mean if they went and shot up an airport that it's a declaration of war by Russia (despite what CoD would have you believe).
And also it's not an act of terrorism. Terrorism implies that they were trying to inflict terror on something to get what they want, but any idiot with a brain and a fucking sense of empathy can obviously see through that one video that they never actually fucking meant to shoot down a Civilian aircraft. They were searching through the rubble and when they figured out it was a civilian aircraft they basically went "Oh shit" for Christ's sake. I mean, why logically would they fucking do that anyways? All that would do would get the rest of the first world to hate you like what is happening now. You'd have to either be an idiot or a monster to shoot down a civilian aircraft intentionally, and despite what you idiots(referring to those who think this is an act of terrorism that is) believe, I honestly doubt they are either. They are just humans trying to win a war like any other group trying to win a war, and they just happened to shoot down a Civilian aircraft when they thought they were aiming at a Military airplane...
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