Hamid Karizai refuses to sign the U.S. - Afghan Security Pact - Polidicks

Hamid Karzai, president of Afghanistan, has been organizing a Loya Jirga, a meeting of Tribal Elders, for the past year to discuss the United States staying in Afghanistan after 2014. The Loya Jirga was composed of 2500 delegates in which the majority voted in favor of the U.S. staying in Afghanistan past 2014. Hamid Karzai originally stated that they would make the decision on whether or not the U.S. Afghan security Pact should be put in place and signed. Now that the decision has been made he refuses to sign the Pact as he does not want to be responsible for the United States staying in Afghanistan, for his term ends very soon. He has, although proposed that if the United States promises to stop night raids and work on U.S. - Taliban peace talks, then he will sign the Pact. Because of Karzai's refusal to cooperate, the U.S. has stated that if he does not sign the Pact by the end of 2013, this month, then they will have to resort to "zero option" and withdrawal from Afghanistan. [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/24/hamid-karzai-refuses-to-sign-us-afghan-security-deal[/url] The reason for his refusal to sign the Pact is not actually known, but many have theories on the issue. [url]http://theweek.com/article/index/253299/why-hamid-karzai-wont-sign-a-popular-us-afghanistan-security-pact[/url] In even later news on the situation, Hamid Karzai has begun to blame the United States on threatening the Afghan government by saying that if he doesnt sign the pact, then we will cut off all support to the Afghan people. [url]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/01/hamid-karzai-afghanistan-us-security-deal[/url]

Fair enough, you don't want our support, we'll bugger off, and leave you to your own vices. [quote]Afghanistan, for his term ends very soon. He has, although proposed that if the United States promises to [B]stop night raids [/B]and work on U.S. - Taliban peace talks, then he will sign the Pact.[/quote] What is different about daylight raids and night raids? I'd understand if he was bitching about drone usage, but night raids are the only practical way to attack a non-uniformed opponent.

It's not surprising he doesn't want to sign, though I wonder why there's no official reason for it yet.

bye

withdraw plz.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;43051204]Fair enough, you don't want our support, we'll bugger off, and leave you to your own vices. What is different about daylight raids and night raids? I'd understand if he was bitching about drone usage, but night raids are the only practical way to attack a non-uniformed opponent.[/QUOTE] "Night raid" pretty much equals assassinations bypassing normal legal process in this case. Apparently civillian bystanders are also often killed but I don't have a source for that right now.

I find it weird that Karzai is now demanding we work harder on the peace talks after years of him refusing to participate. Oh well, I suppose it's better now than never.

Karzai is unable to be thankful for anything. Does he realize that, just on a personal level, he wouldn't have any of his power and may well be dead with the US propping him up. Then he rants on about being righteous against the US while dealing drugs and working towards implementing sharia law. All this time the US is fighting those who are killing people in his country, that he wouldn't protect. Am I the only one who thinks it should matter allot less what this guy thinks?

[QUOTE='[sluggo];43051930'] Am I the only one who thinks it should matter allot less what this guy thinks?[/QUOTE] He takes bribes from CIA, Chinese and Iranians. The guy must be doing something right.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];43051930']Karzai is unable to be thankful for anything. Does he realize that, just on a personal level, he wouldn't have any of his power and may well be dead with the US propping him up. Then he rants on about being righteous against the US while dealing drugs and working towards implementing sharia law. All this time the US is fighting those who are killing people in his country, that he wouldn't protect. Am I the only one who thinks it should matter allot less what this guy thinks?[/QUOTE] In my opinion it shouldn't be up to him at all in this case. The loya jirga, which had over 3,000 delegates from villages, cities and tribes all across Afghanistan voted to keep us in the country. Karzai has the wealth and foreign friends to simply leave Afghanistan if things go awry once we leave, so I really don't think it should be up to him.

[QUOTE=Gordy H.;43051992]In my opinion it shouldn't be up to him at all in this case. The loya jirga, which had over 3,000 delegates from villages, cities and tribes all across Afghanistan voted to keep us in the country. Karzai has the wealth and foreign friends to simply leave Afghanistan if things go awry once we leave, so I really don't think it should be up to him.[/QUOTE] At this point I would be tempted to depose him forcefully (in a sorta step down or we are stepping you down way) and put someone new in. I don't at all see the worth of fighting for someone who works against us. If we stay, I think Karzai should go.

[QUOTE=Cooker;43051149] In even later news on the situation, Hamid Karzai has begun to blame the United States on threatening the Afghan government by saying that if he doesnt sign the pact, then we will cut off all support to the Afghan people. [/QUOTE] Fine by me. If he doesn't want us helping with security we're more than happy to oblige his desires. Quite a large chunk of the American population is fucking tired of being over there anyway. We want our boys home. Now. This just gives the politicians an excuse to give the people what they want while saving face politically. So yeah, Karzai. You want us gone? We're gone. Have fun, good luck, and don't come crying to us in six months when the taliban infiltrates your security forces and makes a royal mess of everything. Again.

we cant just leave though, and i do agree that quite a few people feel that we should leave and that we shouldnt have been there in the first place, but I feel that the majority of them are most likely not fully educated on the situations over there, or are ignorant of the situation. People are always going to complain, whether we are there or not. If you look back to Vietnam, people complained when we were there and then once we left, people complained that we should have stayed to finish the situation, and that we left too early, and the country is now, just back to the way it was before we came. I feel it will be the same situation if we leave Afghanistan this early. We need to be there because we started something we need to finish... To leave now would leave all of our work to shit... all of the lives that were lost in the war wold be completely meaningless, because if we left, the Taliban would regain influence, and the country would be in the same disarray we found them in. All of our work we had accomplished would prove completely useless if not enforced by us staying there. I do agree that we cannot stay there forever, but we cannot leave until the country is stable enough to support itself, which it is not capable of doing yet.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;43051474]"Night raid" pretty much equals assassinations bypassing normal legal process in this case. Apparently civillian bystanders are also often killed but I don't have a source for that right now.[/QUOTE] ffs no it doesn't Night raids mean exactly that, night time raids. omg government sanctioned murdurr they kick doors in when the guys are most likely to be sleeping and when ISAF is afforded the biggest advantage, and they do typical activities soldiers do on cordons: look for nasty shit and arrest combatants. If a combatant happens to arm himself during the raid, of course they are going to kill him. welcome to soldiers 101. Theres nothing about assassination involved with it, in any shape or form.

i bet russia has something to do with this.... [editline]3rd December 2013[/editline] or not, theres a bunch of stupid colonialish clauses in the security pact that we should remove like immunity from local laws [editline]3rd December 2013[/editline] [quote]"China, India, Russia, and the Central Asian countries, as well as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates seem to be in favor of this deal," None of them want a permanent U.S. military presence, "but they have accepted the short-term presence of U.S. forces in Afghanistan as a 'lesser evil,' hoping it will work as a stabilizing force that could keep militancy confined within Afghan borders.[/quote] ah i see where this is going....he doesn't want it to turn into a perminent occupation

[QUOTE=Sableye;43062358]i bet russia has something to do with this.... [editline]3rd December 2013[/editline] or not, theres a bunch of stupid colonialish clauses in the security pact that we should remove like immunity from local laws [editline]3rd December 2013[/editline] ah i see where this is going....he doesn't want it to turn into a perminent occupation[/QUOTE] ISAF members aren't held above the law; if they break the law they are held accountable and punished in accordance with their respective countries judicial system. The point is no country is going to let their members be subject to Islamic and tribal laws.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];43052031']At this point I would be tempted to depose him forcefully (in a sorta step down or we are stepping you down way) and put someone new in. I don't at all see the worth of fighting for someone who works against us. If we stay, I think Karzai should go.[/QUOTE] Would create worse shit.

He's a dead man if the US leaves him undefended. He'll bluster and bullshit for a while, and eventually agree to whatever terms we dictate.

Next time we invade can we make them a colony? If we are going to be totally imperialistic assholes, we have to actually make colonies. Never mind the fact that, as a nation, being imperialistic is quite possibly the only way to be "unamerican", as we were designed from the ground up to avoid EXACTLY THAT. But hey, I figure if we are going to do it, we should at least do it right.

[QUOTE=GunFox;43063247]Next time we invade can we make them a colony? If we are going to be totally imperialistic assholes, we have to actually make colonies. Never mind the fact that, as a nation, being imperialistic is quite possibly the only way to be "unamerican", as we were designed from the ground up to avoid EXACTLY THAT. But hey, I figure if we are going to do it, we should at least do it right.[/QUOTE] There was nothing imperialistic about what we are doing. The people want us there to help clean up their country. If it was an imperialistic act, Karzai wouldn't have an influence on our staying or going. If this was imperialistic gas prices would be very low for us here in the U.S.

[QUOTE=JaegerMonster;43062341]ffs no it doesn't Night raids mean exactly that, night time raids. omg government sanctioned murdurr they kick doors in when the guys are most likely to be sleeping and when ISAF is afforded the biggest advantage, and they do typical activities soldiers do on cordons: look for nasty shit and arrest combatants. If a combatant happens to arm himself during the raid, of course they are going to kill him. welcome to soldiers 101. Theres nothing about assassination involved with it, in any shape or form.[/QUOTE] It's a capture/kill list and Afghanistan doesn't seem to get as much involvement as would be due. I'm pretty sure that's extrajudicial. The fact that a huge government's military does it doesn't change its nature.

[QUOTE='[sluggo];43052031']At this point I would be tempted to depose him forcefully (in a sorta step down or we are stepping you down way) and put someone new in. I don't at all see the worth of fighting for someone who works against us. If we stay, I think Karzai should go.[/QUOTE] this reminds me of something in the past... [IMG]http://www.mrdowling.com/images/608shah.jpg[/IMG]

just thought this is relevant [video=youtube;Ja5Q75hf6QI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja5Q75hf6QI[/video]

I wonder how many people rating 'winner' will be blaming the US when Afghanistan soon reverts to Taliban rule without our aid. Or would complain if the president of the US completely ignored the wishes of the rest of his government in making enormously important decisions, taking the option that would harm his country solely for the sake of his political career.

[QUOTE=Cooker;43065313]There was nothing imperialistic about what we are doing. The people want us there to help clean up their country. If it was an imperialistic act, Karzai wouldn't have an influence on our staying or going. If this was imperialistic gas prices would be very low for us here in the U.S.[/QUOTE] Why the fuck would gas prices be low?

[QUOTE=GunFox;43063247]Next time we invade can we make them a colony? If we are going to be totally imperialistic assholes, we have to actually make colonies. Never mind the fact that, as a nation, being imperialistic is quite possibly the only way to be "unamerican", as we were designed from the ground up to avoid EXACTLY THAT. But hey, I figure if we are going to do it, we should at least do it right.[/QUOTE] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M[/media]

[QUOTE=lolwutdude;43065742]this reminds me of something in the past... [IMG]http://www.mrdowling.com/images/608shah.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] I don't really care about it if we leave Afghanistan, but I don't like our soldiers fighting for a corrupt leader who takes every opportunity to criticize us.

[QUOTE=Explosions;43065871]Why the fuck would gas prices be low?[/QUOTE] one of the benefits of imperialism are the resources gained in the act, if the United States "imperialized" Afghanistan, then we would have control over oil prices, therefor, there would not be a problem with rising oil prices here in the US. [editline]4th December 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Tamschi;43051474]"Night raid" pretty much equals assassinations bypassing normal legal process in this case. Apparently civillian bystanders are also often killed but I don't have a source for that right now.[/QUOTE] only one percent of civilian casualties in this war have been caused by night raids. And thats a statistic from over the past 12 years we have been there. seeing that around 4 night raids happen every day, its obviously not a big problem.

[QUOTE=Cooker;43071549]one of the benefits of imperialism are the resources gained in the act, if the United States "imperialized" Afghanistan, then we would have control over oil prices, therefor, there would not be a problem with rising oil prices here in the US.[/QUOTE] You realize that Afghanistan has no big oil resources right? You are thinking of Iraq.

Afghanistan has lithium, and is an absolutely gorgeous country. Honestly though, for Afghanistan to become a "good" country I would have to say that we would have to see a massive legalization of opium or something. We are making far to many enemies in that region by not working with farmers to at least sell some of their drug crops for them.