A Blog Comment about Film Criticism - General

I just read this blog comment and I thought I would repost it, because it is a great summation of why arguing with Avatar fans totally sucks [quote=Josh Wimmer]Of all the varieties of irritating comment out there, the absolute most annoying has to be "Why can't you just watch the movie for what it is??? Why can't you just enjoy it? Why do you have to analyze it???" If you have posted such a comment, or if you are about to post such a comment, here or anywhere else, let me just advise you: Shut up. Shut the fuck up. Shut your goddamn fucking mouth. SHUT. UP. First of all, when we analyze art, when we look for deeper meaning in it, we are enjoying it for what it is. Because that is one of the things about art, be it highbrow, lowbrow, mainstream, or avant-garde: Some sort of thought went into its making -- even if the thought was, "I'm going to do this as thoughtlessly as possible"! -- and as a result, some sort of thought can be gotten from its reception. That is why, among other things, artists (including, for instance, James Cameron) really like to talk about their work. Now, that doesn't mean you have to think about a work of art. I don't know anyone who thinks every work they encounter ought to only be enjoyed through conscious, active analysis -- or if I do, they're pretty annoying themselves. And I know many people who prefer not to think about much of what they consume, and with them I have no argument. I also have no argument with people who disagree with another person's thoughts about a work of art. That should go without saying. Finally, this should also go without saying, but since it apparently doesn't: Believe me, the person who is annoying you so much by thinking about the art? They have already considered your revolutionary "just enjoy it" strategy, because it is not actually revolutionary at all. It is the default state for most of humanity. So when you go out of your way to suggest that people should be thinking less -- that not using one's capacity for reason is an admirable position to take, and one that should be actively advocated -- you are not saying anything particularly intelligent. And unless you live on a parallel version of Earth where too many people are thinking too deeply and critically about the world around them and what's going on in their own heads, you're not helping anything; on the contrary, you're acting as an advocate for entropy. And most annoyingly of all, you're contributing to the fucking conversation yourselves when you make your stupid, stupid comments. You are basically saying, "I think people shouldn't think so much and share their thoughts, that's my thought that I have to share." If you really think people should just enjoy the movie without thinking about it, then why the fuck did you (1) click on the post in the first place, and (2) bother to leave a comment? If it bugs you so much, GO WATCH A GODDAMN FUNNY CAT VIDEO.[/quote] [url=http://io9.com/#!5422666/when-will-white-people-stop-making-movies-like-avatar?comment=17719801:17719801]og comment[/url]

Cool

What do you guys think? Is it valid to critique art as a part of a broader social context? Can a "simple movie" still provide unintentional insight into the time and culture from whence it came? P.S. if you're planning to try and appear sage and wise by saying something lame and gormless like "it's fine to analyze movies but some people just go to far" then you are stupid and shut the fuck up

It's pretty much on the nail. Just because a movie has fancy action scenes doesn't take away from the fact that it's shit.

it's fine to analyze movies but some people just go to far

[QUOTE=killover;28830850]it's fine to analyze movies but some people just go to far[/QUOTE] I will end u

I love it when people go really into movies and try to extract deeper meaning out of them, but I do feel what happens a lot is that people get really nitpicky about it and begin deriving meaning out of insignificant details. The same thing happened with Inception. Rather than the ending leaving people pondering whether happiness or truth when it comes to reality is more important, people began analyzing frame by frame footage of the guy's ring to determine if he was still dreaming.

[QUOTE=BagMinge104;28831187]I love it when people go really into movies and try to extract deeper meaning out of them, but I do feel what happens a lot is that people get really nitpicky about it and begin deriving meaning out of insignificant details. The same thing happened with Inception. Rather than the ending leaving people pondering whether happiness or truth when it comes to reality is more important, people began analyzing frame by frame footage of the guy's ring to determine if he was still dreaming.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I think that's a different kind of analysis altogether though, that's more akin to people scrubbing through Avatar to see if they can see a nipple. I was thinking more about literary style criticism. On that note, though, I don't think the spinning-top end of Inception was meant to be significant to the narrative. I always took it as a "haha GOTCHA!" ending. It's not like the movie was super deep (although a lot of people seem to think it is, kind of like the Matrix).

To be honest i think of it in a different way, if your talking to someone who says "Why can't you just watch the movie for what it is??? Why can't you just enjoy it? Why do you have to analyze it???" Isn't that just their opinion? I have a different opinion to them, I think analyzing the film is good and a part of the experience... how is that an issue exactly ? Walk away if you cant spark a conversation you enjoy. And if your getting shit over the internet, its that easy to ignore it.

[QUOTE=dude2193;28831937]To be honest i think of it in a different way, if your talking to someone who says "Why can't you just watch the movie for what it is??? Why can't you just enjoy it? Why do you have to analyze it???" Isn't that just their opinion? I have a different opinion to them, I think analyzing the film is good and a part of the experience... how is that an issue exactly ? Walk away if you cant spark a conversation you enjoy. And if your getting shit over the internet, its that easy to ignore it.[/QUOTE] Why should someone's opinion go unattested just because it's an opinion? If I think someone is wrong I should be able to tell them that and ideally, after the argument, we should both be a little brighter and have a broader mind due to the experience. If can't defend your opinion then why do you think that way and perhaps it's time to change the way you think.

wow this dude sounds like he can't enjoy movies for what they are: entertainment

I feel like it's perfectly possible to enjoy a movie for what it is, because not all films are art. Just as there are music genres (techno, for instance) and novels types (i.e. Romance) that don't exist to expand higher thinking, there are films like that too. I believe as long as the thought process is acknowledged, however minimal it may be, then it's fine to take a movie for what its worth. Art is obviously extremely subjective, but I think some form of beauty can be found in any expressive medium.

I think films (and really just about everything) should be analysed and critiqued. For what reason shouldn't you do so? In my opinion, it's much more respectful to take whatever work seriously and derive some meaning from it, even if it exists for the sole purpose of shallow entertainment and/or profit. Enjoying something is fine but trying to figure out why can be insightful.

Often to find the true meaning of a film, you have to analyse it. And that goes with pretty much any kinds of art too.

Yeah it's kind of annoying seeing everyone getting so worked up over sucker punch not getting amazing reviews or someone caring about plot, etc. imo it looked awful, but I'm just going off the trailers. [editline]27th March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=BagMinge104;28831187]I love it when people go really into movies and try to extract deeper meaning out of them, but I do feel what happens a lot is that people get really nitpicky about it and begin deriving meaning out of insignificant details. The same thing happened with Inception. Rather than the ending leaving people pondering whether happiness or truth when it comes to reality is more important, people began analyzing frame by frame footage of the guy's ring to determine if he was still dreaming.[/QUOTE] haha the best were the really goofy theories people somehow would come up with. People spent a ridiculous amount of time and effort on that shit

I don't really have a problem with people overanalyzing films to try and find some hidden meaning. It's not my cup of tea, but some of the stuff they come out with is amusing. The issue I think the blog post is trying to bring up is when fans of a film decide to go ahead and whine at all critics of the film, telling them they should 'watch it for what it is' and 'get off their high horse', even if all the critcs are doing is pointing out glaring issues with the way the film is put together (e.g continuity errors, moronic characters etc). It's at this point, where a person's fandom of the film overrides any notion that the critic might have an idea what he's talking about, that the argument just descends into an orgy of ad hominem. [editline]27th March 2011[/editline] I mean, look at [url=http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/die_hard/]Die Hard[/url]. It's not a hugely smart movie but it's gained near universal acclaim because it's a well put together movie. You don't need to have a complex, multi layered story which encourages thinking and careful analysis for a movie to be good, but you do need to ensure that it's actually competently put together by people who enjoy what they're doing, and not a team of bored monkeys like whoever worked on Transformers 2, a film that is flawed on almost every level but which people still defend because apparently you need to have the IQ of a lobotomy patient to truly appreciate it.

[QUOTE=TH89;28830464]P.S. if you're planning to try and appear sage and wise by saying something lame and gormless like "it's fine to analyze movies but some people just go to far" then you are stupid and shut the fuck up[/QUOTE] why not it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say

I like to see what other people gather from movies. From the deep and symbolic, to the crazy and asinine. I never know what things I may have missed or interesting details that may be proposed despite being somewhat irrelevant.

[QUOTE=iPat;28832546]I feel like it's perfectly possible to enjoy a movie for what it is, because not all films are art.[/QUOTE] Explain? Unless you're referencing documentaries or something I don't understand what you're saying. And even documentaries have an artistic flare put into the camera work to make it pleasing to the eye. There's only a subjective difference between aesthetic art and more contextual art, but both are still art. [quote] Just as there are music genres (techno, for instance)[/quote] I don't really know if you mean techno as in the actual genre or just a generalization towards all electronic music. If you didn't already know there's more than the traditional "oom ts" feel of electronic music, and some of it is purposefully deep and complex melodically or texturally. It may or may not make you "expand" your mind but music like any other form of art is subjective and context-sensitive. What you may perceive as a "simple" non-intellectual track could be someone else's key to an epiphany.

[QUOTE=gnome;28838995]Explain? Unless you're referencing documentaries or something I don't understand what you're saying. And even documentaries have an artistic flare put into the camera work to make it pleasing to the eye. There's only a subjective difference between aesthetic art and more contextual art, but both are still art. I don't really know if you mean techno as in the actual genre or just a generalization towards all electronic music. If you didn't already know there's more than the traditional "oom ts" feel of electronic music, and some of it is purposefully deep and complex melodically or texturally. It may or may not make you "expand" your mind but music like any other form of art is subjective and context-sensitive. What you may perceive as a "simple" non-intellectual track could be someone else's key to an epiphany.[/QUOTE] Fair enough. I should probably have specified, I meant that not all movies are made to encourage and promote personal introspection and/or deep analysis of said film. I'm not talking about aesthetic art of film making, but more the meanings of the films. Yes, I suppose anything could be overanalyzed and meaning extrapolated from minute details, but that artistic level is not the purpose of a lot of movies. As far as techno goes, forget I even made the reference. I know for some people it is their favorite genre, and for justifiable reasons. I was just trying to help make my point with a generalization, suggesting that it serves a very specific musical purpose. But I think mentioning Romance novels is more accurate and relevant for that point, since they are without a doubt just made for horny middle aged women to let off steam, and shouldn't be taken as anything more. Unless you wanted to talk about the ramifications of having a genre like that present in our culture, analysis should not be applied to it.

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;28837431]why not it's a perfectly reasonable thing to say[/QUOTE] It's a totally asinine truism that contributes nothing to the discussion It's like going into a thread about obesity or starvation and saying "people need food to live but you shouldn't eat too much!"

[quote]If you have posted such a comment, or if you are about to post such a comment, here or anywhere else, let me just advise you: Shut up. Shut the fuck up. Shut your goddamn fucking mouth. SHUT. UP. [/quote] "Stop complaining about what I like to do, you braindead idiots!!!!!"

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;28856666]"Stop complaining about what I like to do, you braindead idiots!!!!!"[/QUOTE] What are you getting at?

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;28856666]"Stop complaining about what I like to do, you braindead idiots!!!!!"[/QUOTE] well done missing the point

I think films as entertainment should be just enjoyed for what they are. If they have enough tense, funny, romantic or action moments in them, then they're good for entertainment. But just enjoying a piece of art for being a piece of art is different, because people have different opinions about what a piece of art is/represents. Not all art really has a point, although some could have a point but are too rubbish to get it across. Actually I don't know what I'm talking about and I don't really care so I will shut up. But Avatar was crap for anything other than 3Dness. I never usually read movie reviews or comments because I almost exclusively watch comedies and action movies and unless the point of the movie was shown clearly to me, I don't care about it and don't want to read about someone going in detail about it.

I think some of you guys are a little mixed up here. When I (and the guy in the OP) talk about analysis, we're talking about how, say, James Cameron uses racial stereotypes as characters, or the success of such a blatantly hypocritical message about technology and the environment. In other words, what this piece of entertainment shows us about real life. Some of you guys are thinking of the kind of analysis where people argue about whether Neo died at the end of The Matrix, and whether the top in Inception fell over. That's a different ballgame, because instead of looking at the movie as a cultural artifact, it's accepting the premise of the movie and arguing over (often relatively inconsequential) specifics of the fiction without drawing any connection to the real world. The latter kind often IS a waste of time, but conflating the two is a mistake.

[quote]So when you go out of your way to suggest that people should be thinking less -- that not using one's capacity for reason is an admirable position to take, and one that should be actively advocated -- you are not saying anything particularly intelligent. And unless you live on a parallel version of Earth where too many people are thinking too deeply and critically about the world around them and what's going on in their own heads, you're not helping anything; on the contrary, you're acting as an advocate for entropy.[/quote] Perhaps it's just me but I find this to sound incredibly high-horse. Because is it just me or is he pretty much saying 'if you think x should be watched/done/played without thinking a lot about it, you're dumb and think the entire world should be dumb'? [editline]28th March 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=TH89;28861554]I think some of you guys are a little mixed up here. When I (and the guy in the OP) talk about analysis, we're talking about how, say, James Cameron uses racial stereotypes as characters, or the success of such a blatantly hypocritical message about technology and the environment. In other words, what this piece of entertainment shows us about real life. Some of you guys are thinking of the kind of analysis where people argue about whether Neo died at the end of The Matrix, and whether the top in Inception fell over. That's a different ballgame, because instead of looking at the movie as a cultural artifact, it's accepting the premise of the movie and arguing over (often relatively inconsequential) specifics of the fiction without drawing any connection to the real world. The latter kind often IS a waste of time, but conflating the two is a mistake.[/QUOTE] The latter is only often a waste of time? In all seriousness, it's not exactly clear which of the two he's ranting about.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;28864026]Perhaps it's just me but I find this to sound incredibly high-horse. Because is it just me or is he pretty much saying 'if you think x should be watched/done/played without thinking a lot about it, you're dumb and think the entire world should be dumb'?[/QUOTE] Yeah, and he's right. If someone wants to play a game or watch a movie without thinking about it critically, okay, fine, but when they go out of the way to tell OTHER people not to think about it, that crosses the line into actively stupid territory.

[QUOTE=TH89;28867549]Yeah, and he's right. If someone wants to play a game or watch a movie without thinking about it critically, okay, fine, but when they go out of the way to tell OTHER people not to think about it, that crosses the line into actively stupid territory.[/QUOTE]He may be right. But there are always those people that take his side to the extreme. They look into any film and find some of the most bizarre theories and try to get them to relate to the real world, and its just like, "WHAT?" and makes absolutely no sense to anyone except the person that came up with it. (run-on)

[QUOTE=Demache;28867833]He may be right. But there are always those people that take his side to the extreme. They look into any film and find some of the most bizarre theories and try to get them to relate to the real world, and its just like, "WHAT?" and makes absolutely no sense to anyone except the person that came up with it. (run-on)[/QUOTE] If that's the case and you feel quite strongly that s/he is wrong then start up a discussion. If he turns out to be a bigot then move on but you needn't suppress ideas because they don't seem to conform to common sense. I believe some of the greatest breakthroughs in any field like arts/sciences/etc have been because people have challenged common sense.