Prosecutors demand six years for former Auschwitz guard - Polidicks

[QUOTE]German state prosecutors have asked judges to sentence a former Nazi guard to six years in prison. Reinhold Hanning, now 94, is accused of complicity in the murder of at least 100,000 prisoners in the concentration camp. The case is based on complaints from 40 plaintiffs from Hungary, Israel, Canada, Britain, the US and Germany. Hanning is accused of facilitating the deaths of at least 100,000 people during his time as a guard at the camp. During the hearing, which began in February last year, the 94-year-old admitted that he was an SS guard at Auschwitz and knew about the mass murders which were taking place there. During this admission, Hanning also expressed shame and asked for forgiveness. Hanning's case will probably be one of the last trials related to the Holocaust, in which more than 6 million people, mostly Jews, were killed. Another man and a woman are also on trial for being accessories to the murders committed at the extermination camp. A third person who also served as a guard in the camp died earlier this year before going to trial. He was 93.[/QUOTE] Source: [url]http://www.dw.com/en/prosecutors-demand-six-years-for-former-auschwitz-guard/a-19273851[/url]

Can we please stop this nonsense? It makes no sense to prosecute someone for something done during much different times with different laws and regulations.

If they can still sentence random guards can we still charge Germany to pay for war reparations and stuff ?

[QUOTE=AntonioR;50359595]If they can still sentence random guards can we still charge Germany to pay for war reparations and stuff ?[/QUOTE] well, the last reparations for world war I were paid off in [url=http://abcnews.go.com/International/germany-makes-final-reparation-payments-world-war/story?id=11755920]2010[/url] so [url=http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11463568/Greece-demands-Nazi-war-reparations-as-rhetoric-turns-nasty-in-creditor-talks.html]maybe[/url] [url=http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-32202768]they won't though[/url]

[QUOTE=AntonioR;50359595]If they can still sentence random guards can we still charge Germany to pay for war reparations and stuff ?[/QUOTE] Only if you're Jewish

I don't get the idea that somehow we need to get "revenge" on a bunch of 95 year olds

[QUOTE=_Pai;50359995]I don't get the idea that somehow we need to get "revenge" on a bunch of 95 year olds[/QUOTE] I can understand the principle of the matter, but imprisonment it asinine. Granted prison in Germany is vastly different than it is here in the US, so it's not like he's getting plopped into a hell hole, but still. He's basically going to die in prison, which at this point isn't necessary.

By the time they get the trial and shit set up he'll probably die from old age anyways.

[QUOTE=AntonioR;50359595]can we still charge Germany to pay for war reparations and stuff ?[/QUOTE] I don't know how you would go about doing that. An Italian court and before that a Greek court have already ruled that Germany [url=http://www.thelocal.de/20110910/37503]owes reparations to war victims and their families[/url], but Germany refused to recognize the rulings. The problem is that regardless of the legitimacy of the civil action, the German state can just pull the sovereign immunity card and render any ruling unenforceable. [url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/03/german-immunity-nazi-victims-claims]Basically, you can be a former slave laborer and the courts still can't force the state to compensate you[/url]. This is in regards to reparations to war victims, not actual states which I imagine works differently.

[quote]Reinhold Hanning, now 94[/quote] No. You all should get six years for wasting everybody's time.

What a waste of resources that could have been used to rehabilitate actual threats.

This man is clearly a threat to society. He might become a death camp guard again any minute!

Playing devils advocate here, I must say I agree with the above comments. It seems like a waste, and in terms of time it's been over a lifetime ago. But there are still survivors out there, people who've been hurt by this man (or others like him). Can you possible imagine how that must convey to them if this guy walks free? It's a difficult subject either way, can't say I I'm all for or against punishing him. [sp]inb4 at what age are you immune to your past crimes[/sp]

[QUOTE=Strontboer;50372419]Playing devils advocate here, I must say I agree with the above comments. It seems like a waste, and in terms of time it's been over a lifetime ago. But there are still survivors out there, people who've been hurt by this man (or others like him). Can you possible imagine how that must convey to them if this guy walks free? It's a difficult subject either way, can't say I I'm all for or against punishing him. [sp]inb4 at what age are you immune to your past crimes[/sp][/QUOTE] The thing is, he's really not walking free. Unless he is a die-hard Nazi, he probably regrets ever having helped them - maybe he was even forced to become a guard. He is likely damaged so badly in the mind that a punishment is the last thing he needs.

[QUOTE=MagicCookie948;50372579]The thing is, he's really not walking free. Unless he is a die-hard Nazi, he probably regrets ever having helped them - maybe he was even forced to become a guard. He is likely damaged so badly in the mind that a punishment is the last thing he needs.[/QUOTE] no, his group of guards were all(?) volunteers and knew about the killings. However, in the article it also says he's shameful and wants to be forgiven. How genuine that is, well, up to you. Also, aren't these trials supposed to determine whether or not he had anything to do with the holocaust, and not to actually put them in prison? I remember someone saying that in the last thread.

[QUOTE=Talishmar;50372393]This man is clearly a threat to society. He might become a death camp guard again any minute![/QUOTE] yeah hes been able to live his life free even though he was complicit in a horrendous crime. life goes on! not his victims, though

[QUOTE=Strontboer;50372419]Playing devils advocate here, I must say I agree with the above comments. It seems like a waste, and in terms of time it's been over a lifetime ago. But there are still survivors out there, people who've been hurt by this man (or others like him). Can you possible imagine how that must convey to them if this guy walks free? It's a difficult subject either way, can't say I I'm all for or against punishing him. [sp]inb4 at what age are you immune to your past crimes[/sp][/QUOTE] In most modern cases people on FP usually pretty much overwhelmingly agree crime and punishment should be aimed towards the rehabilitation of the perpetrator, not the sense of vindication or justice for those victimized and especially not society as a whole that hasn't actually been involved in the situation. Personally, I feel that imprisonment should serve two purposes, one being the rehabilitation of criminals, and two, keeping society safe from their actions until they are successfully rehabilitated or indefinitely if they cannot be. I don't see how imprisonment of former nazi rank-and-file soldiers serves either of these two cases. They've obviously been rehabilitated already, and there's nothing to keep us safe from. Arguing for the further imprisonment of these people serves no practical purpose and can only be meant as a means of punishment. Which is something that's generally frowned upon in modern criminal cases, straight up punishment versus rehabilitation. What makes it so different in these cases that we just want them punished? Because they're too old to rehabilitate, or there's nothing TO rehabilitate? Do we just need to get one last "fuck you" in regardless of its actual effect on peoples lives? [editline]22nd May 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=mr kjerr;50372792]yeah hes been able to live his life free even though he was complicit in a horrendous crime. life goes on! not his victims, though[/QUOTE] Locking him up for the rest of his life won't bring them back. What's the purpose?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50372968] Locking murderers never bring back the victims. What is the purpose? Justice. Genocide has no statute of limitations under international law. [editline]22nd May 2016[/editline] By the way, Persecution may ask for 6 years, he may be sentenced to 2 and never see a single day in jail because of old age. It may be a matter of records.[/QUOTE] No, the purpose is, again, rehabilitation and keeping society safe from further harm. We don't prosecute based on emotion. This is basically admitting that this serves no purpose other than getting a quick fuck-you in before he dies.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50373019]Life sentences don't rehabilitate. It is also about punishment. He should be fined and his genocide should be on his records, but he shouldn't be sent to jail. However, if the only choice is between jail and him getting away, I'd pick jail.[/QUOTE] Life sentences get reduced all the time. Most of the time when they're completely set in stone and unaffected by any number of appeals, its because the prisoner in question has demonstrated repeatedly that they've failed to make any progress in rehabilitation. The purpose of any imprisonment is and always should be the reformation of the criminal so that one day maybe they can live a constructive life. Stripping someone of their freedom for the rest of their lives is not something to be taken lightly and should not be done for the sake of some intangible sense of justice or retribution. Why are we marking genocide on his records? Are we worried about him committing genocide again? Or are we just too afraid to admit that we're hoping he faces mob justice while we pretend we didn't bring harm upon him directly?

Don't we have more pressing matters to deal with frankly?

[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;50373061]Don't we have more pressing matters to deal with frankly?[/QUOTE] I'm sure the entire world doesn't stop moving because of this

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;50373071]I'm sure the entire world doesn't stop moving because of this[/QUOTE] No of course not but trials are expensive. Jail time is expensive. The justice being done here is minimal so what's the goal here really? Emotional justice?

Knowing that if you fuck up some innocent people, others won't let you get away with it, no matter how long it takes

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;50373096]Knowing that if you fuck up some innocent people, others won't let you get away with it, no matter how long it takes[/QUOTE] But there's plenty of cases where you can fuck up innocent people's lives and get away with it. There's plenty of statute of limitations on arson, thievery, rape, manslaughter, etc. Why let them get away with it, if our sole intention here is a feeling of retribution?

[QUOTE=Gwoodman;50373096]Knowing that if you fuck up some innocent people, others won't let you get away with it, no matter how long it takes[/QUOTE] I really don't know if that message is going to be sent to many people, and while this is a small internet forum with a small population count that is not representative of society, I must say the results here don't seem too impressive. I also think that what you said is really not that unique, we could use tons of crimes as example of this. Personally I'm seeing the emotional logic of why we'd jail him, but not much else. He was a guard, he may or may not have done horrible things, he is said to be full of regret, I assume because he is being put to trial/jail for this in specific, has since WW2 reformed himself and has lived a full life and has more than likely tried to be a good person. Should he be punished by law? Debatable, there is a reason for it but I feel its emotional reasoning and I feel that emotion should not be a major factor in decisions of law, a field I feel works best on ethics, reason and logic. He has done no further crimes we know of, apparently lives with regret and has reformed his life. His punishment will serve nothing nor solve nothing. As stated by others as well, Germany has apparently refused to pay back for WW2. If we truly want to remember these people who died and these countries forever violated, perhaps we should make a better effort to remember the holocaust included more than the Jewish, which I find frankly to be insulting to both the Jews and the many other innocents and to also maybe try paying some reparations.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50373142] Murder has no statute either. Scale matters on this topic when compared with arson or rape or thievery or manslaughter.[/QUOTE] If we're talking scale of crime, then still, why can you get away with burning down people's homes but not standing guard at auschwitz? You've had a larger impact on people's lives as an individual in the former situation than the latter. The scale is bigger.

After seeing 10 threads like this, the question is: Should I read the same stuff once again, or move over to something else?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50373019]Life sentences don't rehabilitate. It is also about punishment. He should be fined and his genocide should be on his records, but he shouldn't be sent to jail. However, if the only choice is between jail and him getting away, I'd pick jail.[/QUOTE] Life sentences are intended to keep dangerous people out of society.

[QUOTE=doommarine23;50373233] His punishment will serve nothing nor solve nothing. As stated by others as well, Germany has apparently refused to pay back for WW2. If we truly want to remember these people who died and these countries forever violated, perhaps we should make a better effort to remember the holocaust included more than the Jewish, which I find frankly to be insulting to both the Jews and the many other innocents and to also maybe try paying some reparations.[/QUOTE] This is what pisses me off the most about how aware people are of the holocaust or of Fascism. We tend to simplify horrific events into a buzzword. If people too young to remember World War II are ever going to truly understand how and why history happened the way it did, so we don't create the same conditions that allow terrible things to happen again, we should stop simplifying the past and start learning the unabridged version of the past. The effects of the holocaust are numbed when all that people can associate it with are Nazis killing the Jews. We have to look closer at the countless number of people killed during the war. That means knowing that in addition to millions of Jews who were put to death, there were political dissidents, clergy, Poles, Russians, Prisoners of War who were lined up and shot, reprisals on civilians and war refugees, executing of resistance members, homosexuals, mentally ill, the sick, the elderly, the young, the women, and everyone else who was a victim of war right down to these last survivors, who still fight ghosts in their heads to this day. Until everyone realizes the scope and the effects this had on humanity, there will be no one to prevent tomorrow's tragedy. This whole scenario of putting feeble men and women on trial to bring justice to the past is in vain. And in the long run, these actions will soon have repercussions on how people in the coming years will continue to dismiss history or use it to further their own gain. This is why history parallels with itself.

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;50372968] Justice. [/QUOTE] Please tell me your definition of Justice.