This is a REAL feminist victory right here. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
[QUOTE=KnightLight;51867761]This is a REAL feminist victory right here. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.[/QUOTE]
Imagine if western Feminists actually cared about issues like these in terrible places that have huge inequalities between the sexes.
I don't know what feminists you're looking at that makes you think they don't
I guess you think all of them are like the cherrypicked tumblr crazies huh
[QUOTE=Jimesu_Evil;51868842]I don't know what feminists you're looking at that makes you think they don't
I guess you think all of them are like the cherrypicked tumblr crazies huh[/QUOTE]
I have seen more feminists complaining about sexy female video game characters than those who complain about womens rights in middle eastern countries. You even got sweden politicians who lead the Feminist Party submitting to this cultural misogyny.
How come I don't hear anything anywhere by german feminists complaining about the growing incidents of women getting their genitals mutilated in germany? They simply don't care.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;51869251]I have seen more feminists complaining about sexy female video game characters than those who complain about womens rights in middle eastern countries. [B] You even got sweden politicians who lead the Feminist Party submitting to this cultural misogyny. [/B]
How come I don't hear anything anywhere by german feminists complaining about the growing incidents of women getting their genitals mutilated in germany? They simply don't care.[/QUOTE]
The garments they are removing in the video are niqabs. If you actually continue watching they seem perfectly fine wearing hijabs, which is what that nontroversy was about.
[QUOTE=CarnolfMeatla;51869251]I have seen more feminists complaining about sexy female video game characters than those who complain about womens rights in middle eastern countries. You even got sweden politicians who lead the Feminist Party submitting to this cultural misogyny.
How come I don't hear anything anywhere by german feminists complaining about the growing incidents of women getting their genitals mutilated in germany? They simply don't care.[/QUOTE]
Essentially this in reference to Jim's post.
Feminism seems to give Islam a huge pass when it actually has all the problems they stand so much against.
I love simulacra and strawmen too
[QUOTE=Tudd;51868792]Imagine if western Feminists actually cared about issues like these in terrible places that have huge inequalities between the sexes.[/QUOTE]
We do. It's just that naturally, issues directly affecting us in the West that we see every day are those that we're likely going to care about more. This isn't an either-or choice that has to be made, I guarantee you that if you asked any "western feminist" (MASSIVE generalization, btw) if they cared about stuff like this, they would say yes, and would put forth an effort to improve these conditions if they were in a position to do so. In fact, I see awareness campaigns over issues like this pretty much every day.
Don't make this heartwarming and uplifting victory for all into your own personal brigade against western feminism.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51870030]We do. It's just that naturally, issues directly affecting us in the West that we see every day are those that we're likely going to care about more. This isn't an either-or choice that has to be made, I guarantee you that if you asked any "western feminist" (MASSIVE generalization, btw) if they cared about stuff like this, they would say yes, and would put forth an effort to improve these conditions if they were in a position to do so. In fact, I see awareness campaigns over issues like this pretty much every day.[/QUOTE]
So instead of focusing extremely harsh inequalities that truly exist, feminists should focus on sexism in video games, perpetuating a myth on the wage gap, and things like air conditioning being sexist?
I mean really, there isn't that many legitimate legal issues between the sexes in western societies. There is a reason why only about 1/5 of American Women identify as feminist while +80% recognize gender equality and that is because they know the label is ran by nutty people. This is from a Huff po poll btw.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51870052]So instead of focusing extremely harsh inequalities that truly exist, feminists should focus on sexism in video games, perpetuating a myth on the wage gap, and things like air conditioning being sexist?
I mean really, there isn't that many legitimate legal issues between the sexes in western societies. There is a reason why only about 1/5 of American Women identify as feminist while +80% recognize gender equality and that is because they know the label is ran by nutty people. This is from a Huff po poll btw.[/QUOTE]
"How dare you focus on your own personal issues when someone in Africa is starving"
Can you strawman harder, seriously. Do you sincerely think feminists don't care about women being raped in middle-eastern countries? You want to build a fucking [B]wall[/B] to keep out a bunch of people wanting a better life, and even then I wouldn't immediately assume you'd rather spit on a starving African child than give give them a KitKat. Get real.
[QUOTE=Tudd;51870052]So instead of focusing extremely harsh inequalities that truly exist, feminists should focus on sexism in video games, perpetuating a myth on the wage gap, and things like air conditioning being sexist?[/QUOTE]
That's a lot of words you're putting into my mouth. You're also putting a focus on more marginal issues that have much less of a bearing than you're letting on -- other than the wage gap, which DOES exist, but is more of an earnings gap based on other various factors.
[QUOTE]I mean really, there isn't that many legitimate legal issues between the sexes in western societies. There is a reason why only about 1/5 of American Women identify as feminist while +80% recognize gender equality and that is because they know the label is ran by nutty people. This is from a Huff po poll btw.[/QUOTE]
Legal issues? Less so, but there are still societal issues and disparities that do exist between the genders. And really, who cares whether or not people identify as the arbitrary label of "feminist" when, according to the same article you're sourcing, people believe in the ideals behind feminism in the first place?
[QUOTE]But asked if they believe that “men and women should be social, political, and economic equals,” 82 percent of the survey respondents said they did[/QUOTE]
Perhaps the hazy "reason" that these people do not identify as feminists that you're alluding to is not because western men and women are completely equal, but because of the stigmas and connotations that being a "feminist" have garnered over the past few decades.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51870093]"How dare you focus on your own personal issues when someone in Africa is starving"
Can you strawman harder, seriously. Do you sincerely think feminists don't care about women being raped in middle-eastern countries? You want to build a fucking [B]wall[/B] to keep out a bunch of people wanting a better life, and even then I wouldn't immediately assume you'd rather spit on a starving African child than give give them a KitKat. Get real.[/QUOTE]
I actually would be curious if you could find me some examples of western feminists groups actually protesting or making movements to tackle the rape culture in the middle east.
Also, let's not act that American women have no legitimate grievances when our president is a self-admitted "pussy grabber" that has been defended on the basis of participating in totally acceptable "locker room talk" and abortion rights and planned parenthood are under assault by the current political party in power.
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51870105]That's a lot of words you're putting into my mouth. You're also putting a focus on more marginal issues that have much less of a bearing than you're letting on -- other than the wage gap, which DOES exist, but is more of an earnings gap based on other various factors.[/quote]
It doesn't exist, it is a earnings gap. Women make different life choices then men and have other life problems that prevent them working as much (pregnancy) so go figure. Calling it a wage gap is complete disingenuous and a myth.
[quote]
Legal issues? Less so, but there are still societal issues and disparities that do exist between the genders. And really, who cares whether or not people identify as the arbitrary label of "feminist" when, according to the same article you're sourcing, people believe in the ideals behind feminism in the first place?[/quote]
They why do they not want to call themselves feminists? The point is that feminism has obviously gone to far in alot of cases and people find it regressive/awful.
[quote]
Perhaps the hazy "reason" that these people do not identify as feminists that you're alluding to is not because western men and women are completely equal, but because of the stigmas and connotations that being a "feminist" have garnered over the past few decades.[/QUOTE]
And that view wasn't earned somehow?
[editline]24th February 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51870115]Also, let's not act that American women have no legitimate grievances when our president is a self-admitted "pussy grabber" that has been defended on the basis of participating in totally acceptable "locker room talk" and abortion rights and planned parenthood are under assault by the current political party in power.[/QUOTE]
Well those comments are pretty subjective if they bother you alot or offend you.
Though abortion rights and planned parenthood have a large amount of female critics too, so I think you are being ingeniousness thinking this is clearly a one sided issue for women.
Even support for Planned parent has fallen from 81% to 59% in the last decade.
[url]http://www.gallup.com/poll/186188/view-planned-parenthood-favorably.aspx[/url]
[QUOTE=Tudd;51870119]It doesn't exist, it is a earnings gap. Women make different life choices then men and have other life problems that prevent them working as much (pregnancy) so go figure. Calling it a wage gap is complete disingenuous and a myth.[/QUOTE]
...Which is why I said that it was an earnings gap. While it's true that the gap exists because of lifestyle choices, what we should be looking at is whether or not these choices are inherent of psychological differences between the sexes or if there are societal pressures and norms at work. There is no concrete answer to this question in psychology, as far as I know as someone who is currently enrolled in psychology courses.
[QUOTE]They why do they not want to call themselves feminists? The point is that feminism has obviously gone to far in alot of cases and people find it regressive/awful.[/QUOTE]
I don't know the reason, because I was not one of the surveyed individuals who objected to being called a feminist. Maybe you should ask them.
[QUOTE]And that view wasn't earned somehow?[/QUOTE]
What has been done to earn it?
[QUOTE=Tudd;51870110]I actually would be curious if you could find me some examples of western feminists groups actually protesting or making movements to tackle the rape culture in the middle east.[/QUOTE]
Where's my GOP march against poverty in Ghana, Tudd??? Does the GOP think it's okay for people to STARVE???
Maybe the reality is that people care more about what's going on at home. Maybe there have been demonstrations, I don't know, I don't spend all my time worrying about what the conservatives are marching for and against either. You can always point to somewhere worse off, doesn't make your own issues less legitimate.
It also seems to me that you're taking this as a ringing endorsement of all things feminist. It's not, but your arguments are completely worthless, and it's kind of embarrassing.
I hope you don't turn around and advocate for protectionism in order to save workers jobs because the irony would kill me, given your criticism of feminism.
Also that's a bit of a disingenous lie to claim it's entirely an earnings gap. There is an adjusted, and an unadjusted wage gap, one of which is when you take into account biology, choices, etc.. However, even taking all of that into account leaves a large chunk unaccountable. 5-8% typically. There are still many studies that corroborate that discrimination is still an issue.
And even the earnings gap itself isn't worthy of just being written off when we talk about career choice. There's many reasons behind those. One example of which is negotiation and asking for pay raises in which women reportedly express that they fear repercussions for attempting it due to our socialization making them out to be like pushy bitches if they try.
[sp]i've been meaning to do a much longer and sourced writeup about this sometime and post it in GD lol[/sp]
[QUOTE=Tudd;51870119]
Well those comments are pretty subjective if they bother you alot or offend you.[/QUOTE]
For real? Why would they not bother me? Why is a allusion to sexual assault "subjective"? This is exactly what I'm talking about.
[QUOTE]Though abortion rights and planned parenthood have a large amount of female critics too, so I think you are being ingeniousness thinking this is clearly a one sided issue for women.
Even support for Planned parent has fallen from 81% to 59% in the last decade.
[url]http://www.gallup.com/poll/186188/view-planned-parenthood-favorably.aspx[/url][/QUOTE]
Youd be hard pressed to find any issue that is entirely one-sided among a demographic. There will probably never be a politically charged issue that garners 100% support, even if it is a feminist one among women. The idea is that these are feminist issues that millions of women still do support and that millions more showed up to protest for in the women's march. Discounting just how many women do support these issues is just as disingenuous as discounting how many do not support them, if not moreso, considering that the latter is pretty much entirely irrelevant.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51870161]I hope you don't turn around and advocate for protectionism in order to save workers jobs because the irony would kill me, given your criticism of feminism.
[/QUOTE]
Considering Tudd's support for Trump, I'd be surprised if he wasn't a fan of protectionism - but of course, I can't exactly speak for him.
Trump did say 'America First'
[QUOTE=Duck M.;51870030]
Don't make this heartwarming and uplifting victory for all into your own personal brigade against western feminism.[/QUOTE]
This guy gets it.
[QUOTE=Raidyr;51870263]This guy gets it.[/QUOTE]
Hey you said no more posting in Tudd Threads.
[QUOTE=Trebgarta;51870153]Which are actual problems with solutions required.[/QUOTE]
If women making different live choices is a problem to you, you either
A. assume with 100% certainty women must be on average identical to men psychologically and if the decisions made by men and women are not pretty equal on average then there must be sexism involved and we have to force the situation to be almost identical.
B. think that it doesn't matter if women want to make different live choices due to them simply wanting something else or valuing different things, you want to force things on women despite them wanting something else.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51870319]If women making different live choices is a problem to you, you either
A. assume with 100% certainty women must be on average identical to men psychologically and if the decisions made by men and women are not pretty equal on average then there must be sexism involved and we have to force the situation to be almost identical.
B. think that it doesn't matter if women want to make different live choices due to them simply wanting something else or valuing different things, you want to force things on women despite them wanting something else.[/QUOTE]
You forgot
C: There may be various biases and social norms (and actual antagonism) that impact people's choice of careers.
Doesn't mean those are the [I]only[/I] factors governing people's choices, but you're way too quick to ignore them.
[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;51870343]You forgot
C: There may be various biases and social norms (and actual antagonism) that impact people's choice of careers.
Doesn't mean those are the [I]only[/I] factors governing people's choices, but you're way too quick to ignore them.[/QUOTE]
What? It's not a choice if you are coerced to do something or prevented from something?
Well yeah sure, if you define "choice" as "being forced or prevented from something" then obviously women making choices is a bad thing lol
nice. now transplant this woman as-is into a western democracy and suddenly her hijab is oppressing her
[editline]24th February 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tudd;51868792]Imagine if western Feminists actually cared about issues like these in terrible places that have huge inequalities between the sexes.[/QUOTE]
what are western feminists meant to do about a conflict on the other side of the world tudd
if you or anyone else actually gave a shit about this, you'd have already joined the kurds to kill ISIS
[media]https://twitter.com/AntifaTabur/status/832555074773716992[/media]
join right up and kill some islamic fascists
They aren't arguing that people should be forced to make different choices. They're arguing that it's evidence that sexism is in our culture and socialization, and those choices are one of the many effects thereof.
[IMG]https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/10/21/womencoding_wide-4b0beb106fe1b4cfabd9799accb65e8ef8097473.jpg?s=1400[/IMG]
an example of how culture can change a lot of these things.
[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51870404]They aren't arguing that people should be forced to make different choices. They're arguing that it's evidence that sexism is in our culture and socialization, and those choices are one of the many effects thereof.
[IMG]https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2014/10/21/womencoding_wide-4b0beb106fe1b4cfabd9799accb65e8ef8097473.jpg?s=1400[/IMG]
an example of how culture can change a lot of these things.[/QUOTE]
I'm all for removal of those gender standards because they are utter bullshit but I wouldn't just assume that every profession that isn't almost ideal 50-50 split is due to sexism.
I wouldn't be much surprised if women wouldn't want to do some professions even if they were free to do them, and the same exact thing goes for men. If there isn't any sexism or cultural gender standards in place then different life choices are not a problem at all.
And unless you somehow make it so women don't give birth anymore or that men can also get pregnant as easily you will never get this 50-50 split in dangerous or long-gone-from-home professions.
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51870374]What? It's not a choice if you are coerced to do something or prevented from something?
Well yeah sure, if you define "choice" as "being forced or prevented from something" then obviously women making choices is a bad thing lol[/QUOTE]
...what? Honestly can't really make out what you're trying to say?
What I'm saying is that some social norms are counterproductive, and we should be aware that it's a problem. Men shouldn't be compelled to not get into nursing simply because it's a traditionally feminine line of work for example. I won't say that there aren't biological reasons for why more women get into nursing or whatever, but we should still strive to make sure that people don't feel social pressure to choose a different career than the one they want just because of their gender. It's pretty simple stuff. It's not "every line of work needs to be 50/50 or SOCIETY HAS FAILED", it's common sense stuff to make sure people don't feel undue barriers of entry to the line of work they want.
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