• Planet Fitness revokes membership of woman who reported a transexual as a man
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[QUOTE] A woman in Midlands, Michigan was banned from the Planet Fitness gym and had her membership revoked after she complained of being frightened by a transexual in the women’s locker room. Yvette Cormier told news channel WNEMTV5 that she supports LGBT people but that the person in the locker room gave no indication whatsoever of being a transgender person. “This is very unprofessional. It’s very scary”, she said. “I was stunned and shocked. He totally looked like a man. He was not dressed like a woman at all.” She reported him to Planet Fitness management. “They proceeded to tell me that they have to embrace whatever sex somebody thinks they are.” She was told by management that Planet Fitness policy allows any male who “self-reports” an internal “female identity” the right to access areas of public nudity which are sex-segregated for the privacy and protection of women and girls, and that no attempt would be made by management to screen for males who might choose to access such spaces for improper purposes. Their policy states: “…members and guests may use all gym facilities based on their sincere self-reported gender identity.” [/QUOTE] [url]http://www.wnem.com/story/28278233/p...tity-complaint[/url] [url]http://fox6now.com/2015/03/08/no-jud...sgender-woman/[/url]
Revoking the membership seems a bit harsh. Obviously the woman wasn't comfortable with it.
Personally I still think changing rooms etc should be for same sex only. Transexual is fine, but I don't think transgender people should be alowed in areas of public nudity which are segregated for privacy/protection. But that's just my personal opinion. Otherwise what is to stop me putting on a wig and saying I am transgender?
[QUOTE=Shadow801;47286728] Otherwise what is to stop me putting on a wig and saying I am transgender?[/QUOTE] What would you gain from this?
[quote]but that the person in the locker room gave no indication whatsoever of being a transgender person[/quote] how dare she Understandably, it was probably a bit of a culture shock, and revoking the membership really doesn't serve anything. As long as she isn't being transphobic, its just a bad knee-jerk reaction to her knee-jerk reaction. Although, some of the woman's quotes do appear to serve a disrespectful ideal. [quote]“This is very unprofessional. It’s very scary”[/quote] I'm gonna guess she's talking about the membership being revoked, not whatever the trans person was doing.
[QUOTE=Tinter;47286738]What would you gain from this?[/QUOTE] ...Being a creep and going into the women's locker room?
[QUOTE=Tinter;47286738]What would you gain from this?[/QUOTE] [quote]Planet Fitness policy allows any male who “self-reports” an internal “female identity” the right to access areas of public nudity which are sex-segregated for the privacy and protection of women and girls[/quote] ?
[QUOTE=Tinter;47286738]What would you gain from this?[/QUOTE] I think he's trying to demonstrate how easy it would be to 'self-identify' as transgender. If any shmuck can just say that they are with no questions asked then there lies the possibility for abuse. I'm not saying that it will happen, just that the possibility is there.
Gotta love the bias wording of the article. [editline]9th March 2015[/editline] [quote]Planet Fitness policy allows any male who “self-reports” an internal “female identity” the right to access areas of public nudity which are sex-segregated for the privacy and protection of women and girls[/quote] "they might rape our women1!!!!!1"
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286766]"they might rape our women1!!!!!1"[/QUOTE] What do you make of the "privacy" component?
[QUOTE=_Axel;47286841]What do you make of the "privacy" component?[/QUOTE] It's the same argument they use to bar trans people from bathroom usage. That some people might abuse it to rape someone. Sorry if I didn't make that clear
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286846]It's the same argument they use to bar trans people from bathroom usage. That some people might abuse it to rape someone. Sorry if I didn't make that clear[/QUOTE] There's a difference between a bathroom where you don't disrobe save in isolated stalls, and a large room where everybody is in their underwear/naked.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47286873]There's a difference between a bathroom where you don't disrobe save in isolated stalls, and a large room where everybody is in their underwear/naked.[/QUOTE] So? If I have my genitals out visibly does that make me want to rape everyone around me? Unless you're implying that the social taboo of seeing the opposite sexes genitals is reason to disallow someone from expressing their gender identity.
[QUOTE=EditOutJ;47286744]how dare she Understandably, it was probably a bit of a culture shock, and revoking the membership really doesn't serve anything. As long as she isn't being transphobic, its just a bad knee-jerk reaction to her knee-jerk reaction. Although, some of the woman's quotes do appear to serve a disrespectful ideal. I'm gonna guess she's talking about the membership being revoked, not whatever the trans person was doing.[/QUOTE] I think it's more that this was someone who was pre-transition. It could very well be an actual trans person about whom the story is. But if said person still seemed completely masculine, it could easily make people uncomfortable. [QUOTE=Kyle902;47286882]So? If I have my genitals out visibly does that make me want to rape everyone around me? Unless you're implying that the social taboo of seeing the opposite sexes genitals is reason to disallow someone from expressing their gender identity.[/QUOTE] Sorry, we yet aren't a society that completely ignores these things. It still makes people feel very uncomfortable.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286882]So? If I have my genitals out visibly does that make me want to rape everyone around me? Unless you're implying that the social taboo of seeing the opposite sexes genitals is reason to disallow someone from expressing their gender identity.[/QUOTE] People generally don't like seeing dicks they didn't ask for.
[QUOTE=bdd458;47286899]People generally don't like seeing dicks they didn't ask for.[/QUOTE] So?
[QUOTE=EditOutJ;47286744]how dare she Understandably, it was probably a bit of a culture shock, and revoking the membership really doesn't serve anything. As long as she isn't being transphobic, its just a bad knee-jerk reaction to her knee-jerk reaction. Although, some of the woman's quotes do appear to serve a disrespectful ideal. [/QUOTE] From the article:[quote]Cormier said she understands that some men self-identify as women and some women self-identify as men, but said the person looked like a man and that caught her off guard.[/quote] It seems less of culture shock and being made uncomfortable by someone who looked very masculine entering the women's locker room. [QUOTE=EditOutJ;47286744]I'm gonna guess she's talking about the membership being revoked, not whatever the trans person was doing.[/QUOTE] Judging by what was in the article, it seems directed at the transgender woman. While wearing a sign around one's neck that reads "I am mtf transgender" is ridiculous, she should be conscious that people may be uncomfortable with her showing up without them knowing that. Not as far as using the men's locker room until she starts taking hormone treatment, but a quick talk with someone who's visibly uncomfortable could clear it up. The article says she went to the front desk immediately to complain, so the conversation could've happened relatively quickly even if she didn't realize that she made this other woman uncomfortable -- eventually taking it up to the corporate level could've been avoided entirely if Yvette took the initiative to talk with her.
[QUOTE=wraithcat;47286894] Sorry, we yet aren't a society that completely ignores these things. It still makes people feel very uncomfortable.[/QUOTE] We weren't comfortable with black people using bathrooms fifty years ago. Someone somewhere has to have the proverbial balls to break down the barrier.
Still, taking away her membership seems a bit harsh. I think it's more that that woman wasn't expecting to see any dicks.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286846]It's the same argument they use to bar trans people from bathroom usage. That some people might abuse it to rape someone. Sorry if I didn't make that clear[/QUOTE] I dont think rape was the concern, it sounds more like they are worried about voyeurism. tbh, if I was a woman, and a pre-surgery mtf person walked into my locker room, I would be pretty concerned. Even if they were to tell you "I identify as a woman", I dont think that would make me feel much better, as there wouldnt really be evidence (apart from their word) that they were telling the truth. on the other hand, I dont [I]think[/I] there have been any reported cases of people abusing gender identity rules to be perverts, so maybe it's a non-issue.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286882]So? If I have my genitals out visibly does that make me want to rape everyone around me? Unless you're implying that the social taboo of seeing the opposite sexes genitals is reason to disallow someone from expressing their gender identity.[/QUOTE] You're the one introducing rape into this. Believe it or not, people are generally uncomfortable with people of the opposite sex (note that I did not say gender) looking at them in the nude if they're not familiar with them. The trans issue is difficult for a lot of reasons. A pervert or a creep could in fact abuse it to try and garner sexual satisfaction. That's a rare edge case, but even then in the case of a gym locker room, unless you can guarantee that everyone would be comfortable with it, you're doing something odd and potentially discomforting by mixing a person of the opposite sex in. [QUOTE=Kyle902;47286906]We weren't comfortable with black people using bathrooms fifty years ago. Someone somewhere has to have the proverbial balls to break down the barrier.[/QUOTE] I cannot believe you have the gall to draw parallels between the Civil Rights movement and gender identity politics. I'm not sure if I should be mortified or just stunned into regular silence.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286882]So? If I have my genitals out visibly does that make me want to rape everyone around me?[/QUOTE] No, but someone with the intent of groping or who simply wants to get an eyeful would be able to do so more easily than in sex-restricted locker rooms. In bathrooms it makes no difference because the potential victim is isolated once they're in a stall, and that's the only moment when they don't wear clothes. [QUOTE]Unless you're implying that the social taboo of seeing the opposite sexes genitals is reason to disallow someone from expressing their gender identity.[/QUOTE] No, but most women are most probably uncomfortable being naked in front of a male stranger. Not everybody is a nudist. You have to respect others' right to privacy. [editline]9th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Kyle902;47286900]So?[/QUOTE] Would you defend legalizing exhibitionism?
[QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;47286910]You're the one introducing rape into this.[/quote] I addressed another possibility in the sentence underneath that one. Perhaps rape was the wrong word. Sexual assault would probably have been better [quote] Believe it or not, people are generally uncomfortable with people of the opposite sex (note that I did not say gender) looking at them in the nude if they're not familiar with them.[/quote] My question was whether or not that's a valid excuse to deny someone usage of gender appropriate facilities. I fully acknowledge that it makes people uncomfortable [quote] The trans issue is difficult for a lot of reasons. A pervert or a creep could in fact abuse it to try and garner sexual satisfaction. That's a rare edge case, but even then in, in the case of a gym locker room, unless you can guarantee that everyone would be comfortable with it, you're doing something odd and potentially discomforting by mixing a person of the opposite sex in.[/QUOTE] A pervert or creep is going to find a way to do that regardless. As for the genitals thing I ask again if that is justification for the denial of gender appropriate accommodations. It would be just as awkward for a transwoman to go into the mens dressing room. [editline]9th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Crazy Ivan;47286910] I cannot believe you have the gall to draw parallels between the Civil Rights movement and gender identity politics. I'm not sure if I should be mortified or just stunned into regular silence.[/QUOTE] Are you implying that rights for Trans people aren't classified under Civil Rights? [editline]9th March 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=_Axel;47286912]No, but someone with the intent of groping or who simply wants to get an eyeful would be able to do so more easily than in sex-restricted locker rooms. In bathrooms it makes no difference because the potential victim is isolated once they're in a stall, and that's the only moment when they don't wear clothes.[/quote] Again if a pervert wants to do that then they'll find a way regardless of this. [quote] No, but most women are most probably uncomfortable being naked in front of a male stranger. Not everybody is a nudist. You have to respect others' right to privacy. [/quote] Would you prefer a transwoman go to the mens changing room then? I'm pretty sure that would be equally awkward for all parties involved [quote] Would you defend legalizing exhibitionism?[/QUOTE] I'd hardly call using the locker room at a gym exhibitionism. By your definition the locker room is already exhibitionism regardless.
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286934] Are you implying that rights for Trans people aren't classified under Civil Rights?[/QUOTE] In what way does Civil Rights let a person abridge discretionary social institutions? Civil Rights is not a wrecking ball for tearing down every wall. A lot of people actually quite enjoy a society with some walls. They give us privacy. After all, on that account who's to say a so-called Genderfucker, that is for example a great big burly man with a beard who calls himself a woman and perhaps even wears a dress, can't proudly proclaim womanhood and try to enter a woman's changing room? Surely on your account this person can hold up the Constitution and all the sundry and say, "You're oppressing me. Stop segregating my changing rooms. I'm a woman too. I'm a protected minority." I have the most profound respect for Transpeople who have undergone the often rigorous and difficult process of transitioning. But there has to be some line. Some clear classification. Just saying, "I'm Trans" does not immediately entitle somebody to transgress societal barriers that are not only traditional but do in fact serve a real public good. [quote] A pervert or creep is going to find a way to do that regardless. [/quote] Why have laws? Criminals will just break them.
Even if it is "ok" to show your dick/vagina openly in a gym locker room, it's kind of common courtesy not to.
It sounds more like she was concerned by the presence of what looked to her like some guy hanging around in the women's changing room, not offended by the presence of a transgender individual. This seems like something that should have been resolved by just talking it over, not banning her outright. [QUOTE=Kyle902;47286766]Gotta love the bias wording of the article. "they might rape our women1!!!!!1"[/QUOTE] Considering the way even fully-dressed women often get treated by men in public I have nothing against gender-segregated changing rooms. What's wrong with women not wanting to be ogled in their underwear by men when they're just trying to use the gym?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286934]Again if a pervert wants to do that then they'll find a way regardless of this.[/QUOTE] Yeah but the pervert would be liable to pursuits if he engaged in voyeurism in other ways. In the case of unisex locker rooms you wouldn't be able to do the same. [QUOTE]Would you prefer a transwoman go to the mens changing room then? I'm pretty sure that would be equally awkward for all parties involved.[/QUOTE] If the transwoman looked exactly like a man, that probably wouldn't have bothered the people in the men's room. Then again the best solution would be individual locker rooms. [QUOTE]I'd hardly call using the locker room at a gym exhibitionism. By your definition the locker room is already exhibitionism regardless.[/QUOTE] There's no sexual component for the majority of the population when locker rooms are sex-restricted. Of course there are exceptions to this with homosexual individuals or trans people. But it's the solution that best suits the most people save for individual locker rooms.
[QUOTE=catbarf;47286972] Considering the way even fully-dressed women often get treated by men in public I have nothing against gender-segregated changing rooms. What's wrong with women not wanting to be ogled in their underwear by men when they're just trying to use the gym?[/QUOTE] Are you saying it would be better for a transwoman to use the mens locker room?
[QUOTE=Kyle902;47286934] My question was whether or not that's a valid excuse to deny someone usage of gender appropriate facilities. I fully acknowledge that it makes people uncomfortable [/QUOTE] its a tough issue at our current juncture, unfortunately, I think I would say that yes; until a transgender person has come to a certain point in their physical transition, it isnt really fair to make the rest of the non-trans people in a locker room feel uncomfortable to accommodate them. that said, I think we should work to remove the social construct that leads to us feeling so embarrassed about our bodies around members of the opposite sex, which would eliminate these sort of problems entirely.
[QUOTE=_Axel;47286978]Yeah but the pervert would be liable to pursuits if he engaged in voyeurism in other ways. In the case of unisex locker rooms you wouldn't be able to do the same.[/quote] I'm pretty sure its still illegal to do indecent things in the locker room. [quote] If the transwoman looked exactly like a man, that probably wouldn't have bothered the people in the men's room. Then again the best solution would be individual locker rooms.[/quote] What about a transwoman who looked like, you know, a woman? [quote] There's no sexual component for the majority of the population when locker rooms are sex-restricted. Of course there are exceptions to this with homosexual individuals or trans people. But it's the solution that best suits the most people save for individual locker rooms.[/QUOTE] I agree with that
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