Mass Effect 3 Ending Scandel Makes Kevin Levine Sad - Polidicks

This might've already been posted in the Mass Effect thread. [quote=The Verge]Game makers, not game players, should retain control over the games they make and how they end, a panel of developers said during a weekend talk at the Smithsonian to celebrate the new exhibit, "The Art of Video Games." "If computer games are art than I fully endorse the author of the artwork to have a statement about what they believe should happen," said Paul Barnett, senior creative director at BioWare-Mythic. "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one. The comment came at the end of a nearly hour-long discussion about the future of video games which took place in front of a live audience at the Smithsonian American Art Museum last week. Following the discussion, audience members were given the opportunity to ask questions. A man named Sam asked: "What do you think of the whole idea where community has influence on making game story like for Paul with BioWare ...," he asked, referring to the "current fiasco going on right now with the Mass Effect ending." Some gamers are upset over what they believe was an unsatisfying ending to the Mass Effect trilogy, a series that promised gamers an ending that was in part shaped by the choices they made over the course of playing the three titles. Barnett's response was met with loud applause that overwhelmed Sam's response. When the applause died down Ken Levine, founder of Irrational Games, added that he wanted to address the question as well because, Levine said, "I think this is an important moment." "I think if those people got what they wanted and (BioWare) wrote their ending they would be very disappointed in the emotional feeling they got because ... they didn't really create it," he said. "I think this whole thing is making me a little bit sad because I don't think anyone would get what they wanted if that happened." [/quote] [url]http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/3/19/2885173/the-argument-over-mass-effect-3s-ending-makes-ken-levine-sad[/url]

Make a decent ending perhaps?

[quote] "Just as J.K. Rowling can end her books and say that is the end of Harry Potter. I don't think she should be forced to make another one[/quote] Do they not realize it's not that the series ended which upset players, but the lack of quality of the ending?

"but the bio drones said it was amazing..."

see what you did bioware, you monsters? you made the creator of Thief and System Shock 2 sad fyi OP his name is Ken, not Kevin.

[QUOTE=Biotoxsin;35225995]Do they not realize it's not that the series ended which upset players, but the lack of quality of the ending?[/QUOTE] "I think if those people got what they wanted and (BioWare) wrote their ending they would be very disappointed in the emotional feeling they got because ... they didn't really create it," he said. "I think this whole thing is making me a little bit sad because I don't think anyone would get what they wanted if that happened." [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=thisispain;35226037]see what you did bioware, you monsters? you made the creator of Thief and System Shock 2 sad fyi OP his name is Ken, not Kevin.[/QUOTE] it's the reaction of the fans that is making him upset lol

[QUOTE=fruxodaily;35225984]Make a decent ending perhaps?[/QUOTE] he just said man even if they did, nobody would get what they wanted

he's saying you can't please everyone. they told the story they wanted to tell and changing it now, would be compromising that and just pandering to their audience to please them rather than creating their own vision

WHERE IS YOUR AUTOMERGE NOW

don't need it I'm a survivor B)

If I buy a dinner at a restaurant and that dinner is served as something completely different, I have a right to get a new dinner, as I'm paying for it. The same logic works with a game. If I have purchased Mass Effect 3 and the consensus is that the endings need to be redone, then listen to your fanbase. I respect Bioware as a company, but I will not stand by as one of my favorite game series is torn apart.

how can a series be torn apart by the very people that made it? if you don't like the ending, just don't buy their future products or make an ending of your own instead of just complaining you may as well be telling Valve to change end the of episode 2 because you didn't like the fact Eli died, or a band to change the lyrics to a song because they upset you even if it is the "majority"'s opinion, it is still not your creation, just something you participated in video games are not food, they are art.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226161]how can a series be torn apart by the very people that made it? if you don't like the ending, just don't buy their future products or make an ending of your own instead of just complaining you may as well be telling Valve to change end the of episode 2 because you didn't like the fact Eli died, or a band to change the lyrics to a song because they upset you even if it is the "majority"'s opinion, it is still not your creation, just something you participated in video games are not food, they are art.[/QUOTE] art does not work on logic, especially when it's commercialized like video games are

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226161]how can a series be torn apart by the very people that made it? if you don't like the ending, just don't buy their future products or make an ending of your own instead of just complaining you may as well be telling Valve to change end the of episode 2 because you didn't like the fact Eli died, or a band to change the lyrics to a song because they upset you even if it is the "majority"'s opinion, it is still not your creation, just something you participated in video games are not food, they are art.[/QUOTE] The problem in your statement here is that Episode 2 isn't the end of the Half-life series. However, if they end the series with Eli's death being useless, we'll have a right to be pissed.

[QUOTE=Feuver;35226196]The problem in your statement here is that Episode 2 isn't the end of the Half-life series. However, if they end the series with Eli's death being useless, we'll have a right to be pissed.[/QUOTE] that's absolutely ridiculous. So what if a character dies without accomplishing anything? That's how they wrote the character, that's what happens to the character, you have to live with it. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Mon;35226186]art does not work on logic, especially when it's commercialized like video games are[/QUOTE] well there is a difference between gameplay and the story being told in the game. and music is commercialized, that doesn't make it any less art.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226215]that's absolutely ridiculous. So what if a character dies without accomplishing anything? That's how they wrote the character, that's what happens to the character, you have to live with it. [/QUOTE] this begs the question of whether videogames are art or consumer products?

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226161]how can a series be torn apart by the very people that made it? if you don't like the ending, just don't buy their future products or make an ending of your own instead of just complaining you may as well be telling Valve to change end the of episode 2 because you didn't like the fact Eli died, or a band to change the lyrics to a song because they upset you even if it is the "majority"'s opinion, it is still not your creation, just something you participated in video games are not food, they are art.[/QUOTE] the blatant fact that all 3 endings were just the same thing, but they just opened up a hue changer and changed the colors, is what pisses people off. we were promised three different endings influenced by our actions, not different colored explosions.

[QUOTE=thisispain;35226243]this begs the question of whether videogames are art or consumer products?[/QUOTE] No it doesn't, really.

well the court systems have declared videogames to be art, this comment was given at the Smithsonian museum, and game designers have been fighting to get video games recognized as art for years. so really the question comes down to if you, as a consumer of the art, care to recognize it as such, or would rather it just be a glamorized toy. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=LilRobot;35226273]the blatant fact that all 3 endings were just the same thing, but they just opened up a hue changer and changed the colors, is what pisses people off. we were promised three different endings influenced by our actions, not different colored explosions.[/QUOTE] so what. [editline]20th March 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Super Muffin;35226277]No it doesn't, really.[/QUOTE] well if you don't want to think about it and would rather just complain about the fact you didn't get what you wanted, then yes, it doesn't

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226161]how can a series be torn apart by the very people that made it? if you don't like the ending, just don't buy their future products or make an ending of your own instead of just complaining you may as well be telling Valve to change end the of episode 2 because you didn't like the fact Eli died, or a band to change the lyrics to a song because they upset you even if it is the "majority"'s opinion, it is still not your creation, just something you participated in video games are not food, they are art.[/QUOTE] ... I am fed up with the "It's art" argument. Mass Effect has always been made as entertainment, not art. Punching the reporter isn't some fangled-up metaphor for rising up against the slanderous new media, Husks aren't some sort of metaphor for excessive consumerism of technology, and a game where there's a character modeled off of Jessica goddamn Chobot is less than likely to be considered "art". (Or the fact Bioware said they wanted the CoD crowd, so yeah.) Art is meant to leave things unexplained so people can bring up their own thoughts, opinions and theories, like games such as Killer7 and The Path. Mass Effect explains almost everything with stuff like investigate and the codex, it's barely ever been about filling in the blanks. And you've missed the fact the devs [I]lied[/I] about the ending, saying how it wasn't going to pull a LOST, how it won't be choices A B and C, how it would tie up everything, and on pretty much every claim they made, it never came around. And what's the point of making up your own ending when there's still the fact that the actual ending still exists? Not everyone is going to have the same version of their own ending. Art is not an excuse for a shoddily done ending.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226099]he's saying you can't please everyone. they told the story they wanted to tell and changing it now, would be compromising that and just pandering to their audience to please them rather than creating their own vision[/QUOTE] This is why people were as upset, and still are as upset, as they are. An ending to an established storyline is pretty much set in stone once it's been told. You can't really go "Wait.. just kidding!" and change it once you realize you've dropped the ball. The damage once was done once the game went from beta to gold. That said I don't think Barnett or Levine really understood why people were upset. Mass Effect as a series set itself apart by the long lasting decisions you made that actually did impact things across games. So you'd think the ending would be a culmination of all those decisions. It turned out to be completely unrelated, and to make matters worse just a recoloring of the same cinematic three times. That's why people were angry. Not because they didn't get the ending they were hoping for. There's a difference between a controversial ending to a story and a plain shit one.

[QUOTE=Blooper Reel;35226303]... I am fed up with the "It's art" argument. Mass Effect has always been made as entertainment, not art. Punching the reporter isn't some fangled-up metaphor for rising up against the slanderous new media, Husks aren't some sort of metaphor for excessive consumerism of technology, and a game where there's a character modeled off of Jessica goddamn Chobot is less than likely to be considered "art". (Or the fact Bioware said they wanted the CoD crowd, so yeah.) Art is meant to leave things unexplained so people can bring up their own thoughts, opinions and theories, like games such as Killer7 and The Path. Mass Effect explains almost everything with stuff like investigate and the codex, it's barely ever been about filling in the blanks. And you've missed the fact the devs [I]lied[/I] about the ending, saying how it wasn't going to pull a LOST, how it won't be choices A B and C, how it would tie up everything, and on pretty much every claim they made, it never came around. And what's the point of making up your own ending when there's still the fact that the actual ending still exists? Not everyone is going to have the same version of their own ending. Art is not an excuse for a shoddily done ending.[/QUOTE] games aren't art it's official guys! Why do you get to decide that when you didn't make it, you had literally nothing to do with its creation or development? Just because it has a codex they can't have an ending that is very, very open to interpretation? Great.

[QUOTE=Blooper Reel;35226303] Art is meant to leave things unexplained[/QUOTE] art isn't really "meant" to do anything.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226161]how can a series be torn apart by the very people that made it? if you don't like the ending, just don't buy their future products or make an ending of your own instead of just complaining you may as well be telling Valve to change end the of episode 2 because you didn't like the fact Eli died, or a band to change the lyrics to a song because they upset you even if it is the "majority"'s opinion, it is still not your creation, just something you participated in video games are not food, they are art.[/QUOTE] See the thing is, alot of people have a connection with the game. They expected a good ending to the series, and they just got shat on so they want to be compensated for it I paid for it, and I have to say I don't give a shit at all and I think it's okay, but at the same time i'm not a Mass Effect fanatic...But the die-hards have been given the cold shoulder and I can understand where they're coming with because they've been "cheated" in a way. I think there should be some compensation just because of how the majority is disappointed.

[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;35226313]Not because they didn't get the ending they were hoping for.[/QUOTE] uh well ultimately it's not the ending you were hoping for.

[QUOTE=Blooper Reel;35226303]... I am fed up with the "It's art" argument. Mass Effect has always been made as entertainment, not art. Punching the reporter isn't some fangled-up metaphor for rising up against the slanderous new media, Husks aren't some sort of metaphor for excessive consumerism of technology, and a game where there's a character modeled off of Jessica goddamn Chobot is less than likely to be considered "art". (Or the fact Bioware said they wanted the CoD crowd, so yeah.) Art is meant to leave things unexplained so people can bring up their own thoughts, opinions and theories, like games such as Killer7 and The Path. Mass Effect explains almost everything with stuff like investigate and the codex, it's barely ever been about filling in the blanks. And you've missed the fact the devs [I]lied[/I] about the ending, saying how it wasn't going to pull a LOST, how it won't be choices A B and C, how it would tie up everything, and on pretty much every claim they made, it never came around. And what's the point of making up your own ending when there's still the fact that the actual ending still exists? Not everyone is going to have the same version of their own ending. Art is not an excuse for a shoddily done ending.[/QUOTE] it doesn't have to be good to be considered art. art is anything that results from people applying their creativity - and i'm prety sure that bioware did that with mass effect. problem is, they didn't do a good job.

[QUOTE=Vedicardi;35226326]games aren't art it's official guys! Why do you get to decide that when you didn't make it, you had literally nothing to do with its creation or development? Just because it has a codex they can't have an ending that is very, very open to interpretation? Great.[/QUOTE] Look, I'm not saying ALL games aren't art, it's just that some games don't consider art as a factor. I'll admit, I may have been a bit heavy handed with some parts of my response, though.

[QUOTE=SwissArmyKnife;35226313]This is why people were as upset, and still are as upset, as they are. An ending to an established storyline is pretty much set in stone once it's been told. You can't really go "Wait.. just kidding!" and change it once you realize you've dropped the ball. The damage once was done once the game went from beta to gold. That said I don't think Barnett or Levine really understood why people were upset. Mass Effect as a series set itself apart by the long lasting decisions you made that actually did impact things across games. So you'd think the ending would be a culmination of all those decisions. It turned out to be completely unrelated, and to make matters worse just a recoloring of the same cinematic three times. That's why people were angry. Not because they didn't get the ending they were hoping for. There's a difference between a controversial ending to a story and a plain shit one.[/QUOTE] It depends on how you look at the ending. If you think the ending should've literally shown the effects of all you've done, then you're right, it was unrelated. However I look at it as a choice to that solidifies your decisions through out the game, with each choice having ties to other key decisions made in through ME to ME3, with the extent to which your choice is effective depending on your war score thingy which is dependent on your choices in ME3 which are dependent on your choices in the previous two games. If you choose to only see that bar as an "arbitrary number" and don't think the ending was fulfilling because it didn't explain everything, and because you chose to look up the other endings, spoiling the significance of your own, that is on you.

if they change it it's an even bigger insult. they didn't have the testicles to stick with their own shitty ending? why even do it in the first place?

[QUOTE=shingda;35226330]See the thing is, alot of people have a connection with the game. They expected a good ending to the series, and they just got shat on so they want to be compensated for it I paid for it, and I have to say I don't give a shit at all and I think it's okay, but at the same time i'm not a Mass Effect fanatic...But the die-hards have been given the cold shoulder and I can understand where they're coming with because they've been "cheated" in a way. I think there should be some compensation just because of how the majority is disappointed.[/QUOTE] was anyone compensated when St. Anger by Metallica came out? nope. It's not your game, what more do you want from it? I can also see why they feel cheated, but it's a selfish mindset that I don't sympathize with.